Today's Wallstreet Journal, page B3...Union Strong

[JustPlaneTruth]

right B scale, regional airlines instead of mainline flying, saple to the bottom of the list, etc were all management ideas

Additionally, you say "unions" with the implication being all unions as opposed to some, a few, once in history, etc. None of what you speak of are in play with NJASAP since there are no regionals, no b scales and NJI was not stapled.

 

[JustPlaneTruth]

right B scale, regional airlines instead of mainline flying, saple to the bottom of the list, etc were all management ideas

In my best Columbo impression, just one more thing. Unions follow the will of the membership through surveys. In the cases you cite, the "evil union" would have to gone against the will of the membership for some other motivation and got it to pass against the will of a large portion of the membership. If all the things you cite were the will of the membership and voted in by them then onus is on the the members and not the body leading the union at the time.

 

[G4dude]

Thats not the end of what Smith says (check out Book 1 Chapter 10) and I got some FA Hayek and Henry Hazlitt for you too.

IMO the Unions are part of capitalism. We can't individually negotiate with management.

I worked non union and can attest to what Downwind posted. People are flying tired, on broken airplanes and low pay. Even Santulli said in aviation you want union pilots who can't be pressured.

I'll see your Hazlitt and Hayek, and raise you Walter Williams and Thomas Sowell.

 

[gunfyter]

I'll see your Hazlitt and Hayek, and raise you Walter Williams and Thomas Sowell.

Love them. Know where you are coming from...

But don't forget to look for "that which is not seen". In the arguments against unions what is not seen is that managements unite/collude to keep wages lower than market.

A Union Buster Confesses:

http://www.amazon.com/Union-Buster-.../ref=tmm_kin_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&sr=&qid=

 

[ghostrider64]

Remember unions take care of the upper 51% of its members and those members will vote to preserve their position even if it means screwing the 49%

Need I remind you that very junior pilots at NJA are flying G's, solely because the union wanted to be FAIR! Those pilots will never be in the top 51%, nor will they ever live in fear of having their wages cut, to reflect their true seniority.

 

[G4dude]

Need I remind you that very junior pilots at NJA are flying G's, solely because the union wanted to be FAIR! Those pilots will never be in the top 51%, nor will they ever live in fear of having their wages cut, to reflect their true seniority.

I think it was because Santulli wanted to be fair, and dug in his heels.

 

[JustPlaneTruth]

?... Those pilots will never be in the top 51%, nor will they ever live in fear of having their wages cut, to reflect their true seniority.

Only if the Company proposal is blocked. The 4 piles offered by the Company allow for downgrades so guess who will be the first to feel that. Factor in the current pay imbalance between some NJI and all of NJA and big change could be in order.

 

[ghostrider64]

I think it was because Santulli wanted to be fair, and dug in his heels.

Of course you overlook WHO voted you in... But that's ok, believe what you want, then enjoy the benefits gained by those who do the real heavy lifting, FOR YOU, ingrate...

Hell we saved you thousands, by negotiating benefits that can't be changed, under the four pillars you'd be paying for healthcare an amount that would be more than your dues....

 

[Helmsalee]

" right B scale, regional airlines instead of mainline flying, saple to the bottom of the list, etc were all management ideas "

Yip, they are all management ideas. Except staple which, to my knowledge, has not happened.
Helm

 

[pilotyip]

" right B scale, regional airlines instead of mainline flying, saple to the bottom of the list, etc were all management ideas "Helm

That may be? but it was accepted by 51% + to ensure as much of seniority perks were preserved. am I wrong?

 

[Semore Butts]

I think it was because Santulli wanted to be fair, and dug in his heels.

I don't understand that G4? Could you explain it to me? The being fair part? The upgrading of all the FO's. I don't understand how that is fair to the rest of us? Yes, I know you will probably say that happened before the integration, so it is what it is. The company sold you down the river to the union if that's the way you wanna look at it. So again, it is what it is, and here you are.

Just plain truth:

"The 4 piles offered by the Company allow for downgrades so guess who will be the first to feel that".

Semore:
Yes, there would be about a 120 Gulfstream guys downgraded before they get to me. So, I think this would be a pretty good time for the G-people to get on board with the rest of the union pilots.

I've only met 1 G-pilot that I thought was an idiot. She because she was a "fee payer". When I ask her why she did that she said that another Cpt told her too? Not to bright in my opinion. (I wonder what else the Cpt's told her to do on the road? She may have been a good time!)

But, these are the cards we are dealt. Fall in and support the union, fly the contract and make things better. Or, get downgraded (depending on your hire date) because you are so concerned about hurting the EMT's feelings. Your call?

May I also point out that as the largest fractional the other fractionals generally get wage increases based on how our contracts come out.

Fly the contract and above all, don't let the company endanger your life or livelihood.

Semore

 

[JustPlaneTruth]

That may be? but it was accepted by 51% + to ensure as much of seniority perks were preserved. am I wrong?

Like I said earlier, do you have any empirical evidence to support this statement? I have never seen any and doubt it exists. There is no exit polling in CBA votes and voting is anonymous. Therefore pollsters will not have any idea who voted for or against a CBA and why they voted the way they did. Linking yes or no votes purely to seniority is not possible. Furthermore, Many, CBA votes pass by margins above 50% +1 vote which marginalizes your argument as well. Lastly, Negotiating Committees bargain following the will of the pilot group and therefore CBAs reflect their will. Union Leadership wants CBAs to pass with a 100% yes vote and a 100% turnout. That means they did their job according to the will of the membership. Company leadership wants to pass a CBA BY 50% + 1. The vote will be somewhere in the middle with people satisfied and not. That is how labor democracy works.

 

[pilotyip]

The vote will be somewhere in the middle with people satisfied and not. That is how labor democracy works.

my point exactly

 

[X-rated]

I don't understand that G4? Could you explain it to me? The being fair part? The upgrading of all the FO's. I don't understand how that is fair to the rest of us? Yes, I know you will probably say that happened before the integration, so it is what it is. The company sold you down the river to the union if that's the way you wanna look at it. So again, it is what it is, and here you are.

Semore,

You generally seem like a level headed thoughtful person, so I'm surprised by your viewpoint. In this case, it sounds like you actually know why it was fair and the right thing to do. As an outsider, I was pulling for all of the NJI FO's to get an early upgrade. NJASAP wanted to combine so they could take NJI's big airplanes for themselves. Very few from NJI wanted the merger back then, but NJASAP wanted to steal those G seats for themselves. The career expectation for pilots who met the qualifications and accepted positions at NJI was to upgrade into a Gulfstream. Pilots love to screw over other pilots, so NJASAP forced the integration that was not wanted by the NJI pilots, and some are still pissed they didn't get more of the prize for doing so.

You can argue that it worked out well for everyone, and that the NJI pilots are better off today. That might be true, but the NJI pilots wanted no part of the integration because they knew you wanted their seats. I'm glad they got to keep them. In my book, that's fair.

 

[JustPlaneTruth]

my point exactly

In the middle between 50% + 1 and 100% which is about 75% yes and 25% no. That is a hundreds if not thousands of pilots different from your 51/49 example. That would mean 75% satisfied and probably from all demographics not just senior pilots in the top half the list. The 2007 CBA at NJA passed with 85% ish yes so that debunks your theory too.

 

[pilotyip]

In the middle between 50% + 1 and 100% which is about 75% yes and 25% no. That is a hundreds if not thousands of pilots different from your 51/49 example. That would mean 75% satisfied and probably from all demographics not just senior pilots in the top half the list. The 2007 CBA at NJA passed with 85% ish yes so that debunks your theory too.

exactly 75% or 85% mspossing its will upon a minority because it is better for the majority

 

[gutshotdraw]

Semore,

You generally seem like a level headed thoughtful person, so I'm surprised by your viewpoint. In this case, it sounds like you actually know why it was fair and the right thing to do. As an outsider, I was pulling for all of the NJI FO's to get an early upgrade. NJASAP wanted to combine so they could take NJI's big airplanes for themselves. Very few from NJI wanted the merger back then, but NJASAP wanted to steal those G seats for themselves. The career expectation for pilots who met the qualifications and accepted positions at NJI was to upgrade into a Gulfstream. Pilots love to screw over other pilots, so NJASAP forced the integration that was not wanted by the NJI pilots, and some are still pissed they didn't get more of the prize for doing so.

You can argue that it worked out well for everyone, and that the NJI pilots are better off today. That might be true, but the NJI pilots wanted no part of the integration because they knew you wanted their seats. I'm glad they got to keep them. In my book, that's fair.

Oooh boy. Now you've done it....where's the popcorn icon?

 

[X-rated]

Oooh boy. Now you've done it....where's the popcorn icon?

It's been quiet and all the Pro/Anti union stuff bores the hell out of me. I wasn't string the pot because I meant what I said, but I acknowledge I could have certainly been more diplomatic about it. I expected a much more enthusiastic response from a few of the faithful. I guess time and the status quo heals all wounds.

Had a nice chat with Semore on PM. Seems like a great guy. I see his point of view and hope he sees mine. In any case, it's all ancient history.

Hope you found the icon because I'll let you in on another secret. I hope you and all the other former NJI crews all get displacement bids into the Globals. It's about career expectations and seems only fair to me. The manufacturer's name on the side means less than the mission in my opinion. Former NJI and it's crews are the LRC provider. That was their expectation upon being hired, and changing the aircraft providers from Gulfstream to Bombardier seems like a technicality that allows senior NJA crews to change roles with you. It's bull, and was undoubtedly unforeseen and unthinkable by Santulli when negotiated.

Also, I'd love to buy you a beer after you've been in the Global for a couple hundred hours.

 

[tk855]

Semore,

You generally seem like a level headed thoughtful person, so I'm surprised by your viewpoint. In this case, it sounds like you actually know why it was fair and the right thing to do. As an outsider, I was pulling for all of the NJI FO's to get an early upgrade. NJASAP wanted to combine so they could take NJI's big airplanes for themselves. Very few from NJI wanted the merger back then, but NJASAP wanted to steal those G seats for themselves. The career expectation for pilots who met the qualifications and accepted positions at NJI was to upgrade into a Gulfstream. Pilots love to screw over other pilots, so NJASAP forced the integration that was not wanted by the NJI pilots, and some are still pissed they didn't get more of the prize for doing so.

You can argue that it worked out well for everyone, and that the NJI pilots are better off today. That might be true, but the NJI pilots wanted no part of the integration because they knew you wanted their seats. I'm glad they got to keep them. In my book, that's fair.

It really had nothing to do with "stealing" of seats as you say, but the recognition that the pilot group would be significantly stronger and more prevalent in negotiations with all pilots unionized! NJASAP saw how potentially damaging it could be if we had a non-unionized group that management would be able to pit against those pesky unionized pilots, the term whipsaw comes to mind. I suppose some of the "grassy knollers" might view it as a seat grab though!

 

[imacdog]

Without the integration, the NJI guys would have been stuck on the Gulfstreams as they get phased out while all Global slots would be going to NJA pilots. So the NJI guys should feel fortunate that they get to keep their jobs as the Gulfstreams go away. As for career expectations, keep in mind that it was NJA pilots operating the BBJs, not NJI. The most important thing is we now have one pilot group flying under one brand - none of the whipsaw BS that we see in other segments of the industry.