To the Gulfstream crew at TEB...

[Gulfstream 200]

So you can do .92 for what, an hour and a half? Then spend a week at the service center. Super.

yeah, or lets see that beloved ".92" in the Nat tracks or the NORPAC routes......not between LA and Chicago.

:erm: .

 

[Ace-of-the-Base]

just remember when you think everyone is in your way remember you're in our way.

.92 need i say more?

I'll remember that when I'm half way to RJAA from HPN, watching a movie in the crew rest area while being served a hot meal by my beautiful flight attendant. Oops. Maybe you won't be overtaking me.

But you're right, most Citations are slow, yours is just small and unreliable. My mistake.

Ace

 

[semperfido]

I'll remember that when I'm half way to RJAA from HPN, watching a movie in the crew rest area while being served a hot meal by my beautiful flight attendant. Oops. Maybe you won't be overtaking me.

But you're right, most Citations are slow, yours is just small and unreliable. My mistake.

Ace

ace,
you betta update your profile

-fido

 

[cl604driver]

Hawker fo i dont mean to burst your bubble but that encore is a twin cessna, i cant tell you how many times i have either taken vectors or either hear the citation V series aircraft being vectored out of my way flying the lear 24 or 60. Out climbing your a$$ with 75 knots overtake. maybe you were mistaken and atc was moving a king air out of your way. i cant think of anything that will out climb the lear 24 and 60 and nothing much faster. the encore is not even in the same class. the only citation that i can think of is the X and also the C VII that somewhat impresses me

 

[Ace-of-the-Base]

ace,
you betta update your profile

-fido

I know. I guess I still have a love for the old IV.

But Fido, 117Kts? Your landing kind of heavy

Ace

 

[semperfido]

tanker,tanker,tanker....did i say tanker

 

[GVFlyer]

just remember when you think everyone is in your way remember you're in our way.

.92 need i say more?

This is from the current FAI World Record Book for speed over a recognized course between New York and Los Angeles. The Citation has the record for speed in it's class, but not overall - that belongs to the Gulfstream. Just so you don't have to get out your calculator, the GV averaged 535 MPH from New York to Los Angeles in the factory demonstrator; the Citation was over 26 MPH slower.

Teterboro, NJ (USA) - Van Nuys, CA (USA) : 819.39 km/h
Speed over a recognised course
Benjamin M. BUDZOWSKI (USA), Mark O. SCHLEGEL
11/05/1995 Aircraft:
Cessna 750 Citation X
Registration: N752CX
Engines: 2 x Allison GMA 3007C, 6 000 lb each

Teterboro, NJ (USA) - Van Nuys, CA (USA) : 861.98 km/h
Speed over a recognised course
Tom OWENS (USA), Christian M. KENNEDY
03/07/2000 Aircraft:
Gulfstream Aerospace G-V
Registration: N5GA
Engines: 2 X BMW Rolls-Royce BR710, 14.750 lbs each


Sorry to introduce the facts, but if I have to go really fast between say, Dayton, Ohio and Chicago Illinois or between two Citation Service Centers, I'll keep the X in mind. You keep in mind that this record was achieved in a GV; the G550 has 6% more equivalent thrust, is aerodynamically cleaner and easily flys 5,000 nm at Mach 0.87.


GV







~

 

[Tram]

You guys have nothing on a PA-44-180..

 

[HawkerF/O]

Hawker fo i dont mean to burst your bubble but that encore is a twin cessna, i cant tell you how many times i have either taken vectors or either hear the citation V series aircraft being vectored out of my way flying the lear 24 or 60.

1st let me say, you are not bursting any bubble of mine. I don't fly Citations or Hawker anymore, and I am not some Citation apoligist. You are wrong about the Encore and 1/2 reading what I wrote. When I use the term class refering to aircraft I use it as it's used in the industry (VLJ, Light Jet, Mid size, Super mid size, etc). You use is casually with your own meaning and I think that is where you are misunderstanding what I am writing. The Encore is an entirely different animal (performance wise) than a Citation 5 or any straight wing Citation for that matter. If you've flown a LR60 you know what P&W can do with a jet engine. Because of those P&Ws being on the Encore is what makes it such a climber. The straight wing of the Encore is what makes it lack in speed at altitude. I am sure you have heard 5s and 2s etc getting turned or you having to turn for them. But if you are not having to turn or a plane is not being vectored for a climb obviously you'd never know what you are behind or in front of. With that in mind, over the radio, you have no idea what kind of Citation is being talked about. It's just Citation NXXXXX. When you are airborne do the controllers say Citation Excel NXXXXX or Citation V NXXXX and then stop when you land or change freqs? Is that how you know what model Citation is being vectored?
A lear 24 I would say is the exception to light jet out climbing an Encore. If you read my post, you'd see that I said it would out climb lots of swept wings and PROBABLY everything in its class (Light Jet). Once again, with the exception of the LR24, and maybe 1 or 2 other LIGHT lears, what else out climbs the Encore in its class? The LR60 is NOT in the same class (its a Mid Size) as the Encore. I don't know of any Corp jet that'll out climb the LR60. That is 1 impressive airplane all around. Maybe the C750, but I can't say for sure. I've been in a C750 (as a passenger) being FLC'd at .88 doing 1500ft/min well into the 40s, so it can probably hang with the 60 all day long in the climb. If not, the 60 might out climb it, but hang on, cause that C750 is gonna blow right by it under any circumstance. To get max range out of that 60 you'll have to pull it back, and that X will get that same range and more at .88 and probably .92.

Out climbing your a$$ with 75 knots overtake. maybe you were mistaken and atc was moving a king air out of your way. i cant think of anything that will out climb the lear 24 and 60 and nothing much faster. the encore is not even in the same class.

Unless you are Climbing at 375Kts, you dont have a 75Knot overtake on an Encore. That's what I am trying to tell you man, the Encore is not your typical Citation II or V climbing at 230-250. You've got some CJ time (According to your Profile) and think it's the same thing as other Citations. It's not. Talk to someone that has flown the Encore or knows something about one. You really don't know what you are talking aobut when it comes to the Encore. And don't kid yourself, the LR60 is not some speed demon: .81? .82? And let's talk range on that 24. 900NM? 1150NM?

the only citation that i can think of is the X and also the C VII that somewhat impresses me

Ummmmmm, Who gives a Sh!T whether or not you are impressed? I didnt realize you were the authority on this matter.

 

[SAEflyer]

Well since 99% of the Lear 24's out there are not RVSM'd, i'd say that range go's down to about 700miles...But it sure is fun!

 

[Unleaded]

.85 or .86 on the natracks east bound is about average.

The only X's that go between the service centers are NJA's. Corp Citations do very well on the road.

.82 is long range cruise about 1600pph and is still a very respectable number considering 13,000lbs is total fuel.

 

[xjetav8er]

Don't forget the reserved runways

If you fly a Citation X many airports have a special runway just for you with an X painted on each end.

 

[Kingairrick]

.......

 

[volunteer]

just remember when you think everyone is in your way remember you're in our way.

.92 need i say more?

Just how did you get that job flying .92 with a PPL and 100 hours TT? What insurance company wrote you a policy? Just going by your profile. If I am missing something, please let me know.

 

[flydaddy0499]

I used to get offended with all the swept-wing drivers insulting my "jet-hood". But I just started flying jets a few months ago (CE550, 560) and I now know my place in life as a lowly Citation pilot.

So I say "thank you" to all the non-citation jet pilots for my spiritual awakening. You have educated me to the possibility that a straight winged jet may not be a jet at all. In your honor, I will never say my mach number when queried by ATC, I will reply with KIAS only (damned embarrassing anyway). I will always asked to be vectored away from real jets in the climb. I have been enlightened at last!!!!!! I shall always strive to fly a real and fast jet with swept wings!!! Ha-lle-lu-jah, my eyes have been opened and I see the light! I pray to God almighty to hasten the day that I too will fly a fast jet. I will join the ranks of those who have gone before me down the path of the swept and widebody (as opposed the straight and narrow). Thank ya Jesus!!! Wooo-hoooo!!!!!

Everybody sing: I saw the light, I saw the light............

 

[GVFlyer]

.85 or .86 on the natracks east bound is about average.

Gulfstream took a Citation X in on a trade and let the flight test engineers have it for qualitative testing before it was resold (this competitive analysis is something many manufaturers do, Bombardier leased and instrumented a GV, but they were disappointed in their results; Cessna sent an Experimental Test Pilot to GV initial at FSI). The engineers ballasted the X to 8 pax and put the requisite test stations and orange wire in the jet and this is what they came up with including NBAA IFR reserves:

Normal Cruise - M 0.85 Range: 2,613nm
Long Range Cruise - M 0.82 Range: 2,767nm
Intermediate Cruise - M 0.90 Range: 1,889nm
High Speed Cruise -M 0.92 Range: 773nm
MMO - M 0.92M

Takeoff distance 5,140ft.
(SL,ISA, MGTOW)

Landing distance 3,410ft.
(SL,ISA,MLW)

Initial Altitude FL 430

When ballasted for 4 passengers the engineers got:

M 0.85 - 2,978 nm
M 0.82 - 3,098 nm
M 0.92 - Not Tested

The test crew observed that the highest cruise speeds occured in the mid- 30's, but fuel consumption increased by almost 50 percent. Flying in the 40's dropped cruise speed by 25 to 35 knots, but available cruise speed was still up to 499 knots.

The only X's that go between the service centers are NJA's. Corp Citations do very well on the road.

In the last 12 months US Bank grounded then sold their Citation Xs and General Motors, citing a lack of reliability in their five Citation Xs, replaced them with Gulfstream G350s.

GV

 

[HawkerF/O]

Hold on a minute. US Bank closed the flight department. It's 1 thing if the planes got sold then replaced, but that is not the case here. If they had GVs or LR60s, they planes were going regardless. The flight department over at US Bank was a mess. I know they grounded their airplanes, but if you have poor performance by the MX staff, that stuff is going to happen. Then Tag comes in and you know how banks are aabout $, and Tag AIN'T cheap. It's like the aircraft owner that asked his Mechanic if the Hawker 800A could fly to Hawaii. Mechanic said "Oh yeah, no problem", so the pilots got fired cause they told him it could not do it safely. You have poeple that do not know what they are talking about or what they are doing and the CEO has to get involved, hang on, cause things are going to get nasty. Maybe their 750s were junk, but there is a lot more to the story than that. As for GM, those planes have run their course over there. They have had them for several years and they needed larger airplane. I frequently see those Xs pull up somewhere and 7 or 8 pax get off. The X is not a good airplane for 8 people on trips the lengths they fly. 8 folks crammed in there after a long day is not the best situation. Those middle and upper managers complained a lot about the size of the cabins. Once again, maybe their X's were junk as well, but there is more to the story than the planes were not reliable. Gulfstreams break as well, but like Boeings, it's typically not a no go item. Gulfstreams are extremely reliable aircraft and rock solid, and the same thing can be said about the GX. It's all a wash. BTW, I'd love to occupy that seat to your right.

Gulfstream took a Citation X in on a trade and let the flight test engineers have it for qualitative testing before it was resold (this competitive analysis is something many manufaturers do, Bombardier leased and instrumented a GV, but they were disappointed in their results; Cessna sent an Experimental Test Pilot to GV initial at FSI). The engineers ballasted the X to 8 pax and put the requisite test stations and orange wire in the jet and this is what they came up with including NBAA IFR reserves:

Normal Cruise - M 0.85 Range: 2,613nm
Long Range Cruise - M 0.82 Range: 2,767nm
Intermediate Cruise - M 0.90 Range: 1,889nm
High Speed Cruise -M 0.92 Range: 773nm
MMO - M 0.92M

Takeoff distance 5,140ft.
(SL,ISA, MGTOW)

Landing distance 3,410ft.
(SL,ISA,MLW)

Initial Altitude FL 430

When ballasted for 4 passengers the engineers got:

M 0.85 - 2,978 nm
M 0.82 - 3,098 nm
M 0.92 - Not Tested

The test crew observed that the highest cruise speeds occured in the mid- 30's, but fuel consumption increased by almost 50 percent. Flying in the 40's dropped cruise speed by 25 to 35 knots, but available cruise speed was still up to 499 knots.



In the last 12 months US Bank grounded then sold their Citation Xs and General Motors, citing a lack of reliability in their five Citation Xs, replaced them with Gulfstream G350s.

GV

 

[AIR2MUD]

i suppose it could have come from a citation crew as well. don't you think?:smash:

No, Citations at TEB never seem to be in a hurry...

 

[banned username 2]

You have educated me to the possibility that a straight winged jet may not be a jet at all. In your honor, I will never say my mach number when queried by ATC, I will reply with KIAS only (danged embarrassing anyway).

That thing actually has a Mach Meter in it?!?!!?

Just Kidding!

 

[cezzna]

Oh yeah!!! Well my dad can beat up your dad.
My girlfriend has bigger t!ts than yours (who was her plastic surgeon anyway!)
My Mustang will blow your vette's doors off biatch!
I'll see you at recess!

You're all a buncha PUNKS!

 

[Groundpounder]

How much does it REALLY matter what you fly (unless its a Hansa Jet or something else that is total junk)? Isn't pay and QOL more a factor? I'd rather fly a Citation 1, and have a great boss and a big paycheck, then fly a G550 and have to deal with an a-hole boss and make crap for money.

I'm not a pro-pilot, but isn't that what most people think?

 

[flybrowntails]

this is a fun thread to read.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

How much does it REALLY matter what you fly (unless its a Hansa Jet or something else that is total junk)? Isn't pay and QOL more a factor? I'd rather fly a Citation 1, and have a great boss and a big paycheck, then fly a G550 and have to deal with an a-hole boss and make crap for money.

I'm not a pro-pilot, but isn't that what most people think?

big paycheck in a Citation I as opposed to crap money in a G550?

just not how it works pounder.

Now, one can argue they like to stay home more and love the Citation, but they are usually full of crap and would jump on the opportunity to fly a G5 for a good company and make G money.

It also works the other way...lots of G flyers always say "hey, Id kill to fly a King Air...har,har" but again, they are full of crap, thier G-esus Egos would shatter and they would shrivel up if they had to give up that left seat perch in a G5.



(Just a generalization)

 

[semperfido]

..lots of G flyers always say "hey, Id kill to fly a King Air...har,har" but again, they are full of crap, thier G-esus Egos would shatter and they would shrivel up if they had to give up that left seat perch in a G5.

hmmm- not exactly--in about 6 yrs, i would love to fly a nice c90 or some other variation on the theme, just enough to stay current ( i can barely stay current now).

 

[banned username 2]

It also works the other way...lots of G flyers always say "hey, Id kill to fly a King Air...har,har" but again, they are full of crap, thier G-esus Egos would shatter and they would shrivel up if they had to give up that left seat perch in a G5.

Ouch! Being a "G-Pilot" myself, I can honestly say if I could get a very secure (yeah right) job flying a King Air 300 in Iowa somewhere, flying a couple days a week for $150,000+ base salary and a good retirement, I would probably jump at it! The problem is, those jobs just don't exist... So if you wanna make the money, you gotta fly the metal... Just the facts of life!

Until they come knockin', I'll just continue sluggin' around in the G-V...

 

[Gulfstream 200]

Ouch! Being a "G-Pilot" myself, I can honestly say if I could get a very secure (yeah right) job flying a King Air 300 in Iowa somewhere, flying a couple days a week for $150,000+ base salary and a good retirement, I would probably jump at it! The problem is, those jobs just don't exist... So if you wanna make the money, you gotta fly the metal... Just the facts of life!

Until they come knockin', I'll just continue sluggin' around in the G-V...

HA!

You might have some competition on that job Capt!

Guys, I was really kinda joking....just making the point to pounder that if you want the bucks ya gotta go away on the bigger equip....just a fact I suppose..the "bigger suitcase" is not for your clothes, its for your MONEY!...(haha)

Everyone wants that stable Fortune 10 job thats pay top dollar, puts you in a GV, and you only fly as far as Florida - 2X a month for an overnight....in casual dress and unlimited expenses.

 

[banned username 2]

Everyone wants that stable Fortune 10 job thats pay top dollar, puts you in a GV, and you only fly as far as Florida - 2X a month for an overnight....in casual dress and unlimited expenses.

Sign me up! I'll even fly as far as California (however, that would only be once a month in that case)...

 

[Gulfstream 200]

Sign me up! I'll even fly as far as California (however, that would only be once a month in that case)...

and my family comes with me..

Hey Capt - feel good to come home nonstop the other day?

 

[banned username 2]

and my family comes with me..

Hey Capt - feel good to come home nonstop the other day?

Was very nice, made the trip much easier! I'll take 11+10 non-stop anyday over 8+00 and another 4+00...

 

[HawkerF/O]

Ouch! Being a "G-Pilot" myself, I can honestly say if I could get a very secure (yeah right) job flying a King Air 300 in Iowa somewhere, flying a couple days a week for $150,000+ base salary and a good retirement, I would probably jump at it! The problem is, those jobs just don't exist... So if you wanna make the money, you gotta fly the metal... Just the facts of life!

Until they come knockin', I'll just continue sluggin' around in the G-V...

I am finding out those jobs do exist. You just don't hear about them cause the guys lucky enough to have that kind of job aren't stupid enough to talk about it. Would you? Give me a job flying a B200 around the Midwest and the boss goes only if I want to and I make 150K with a 12K car allowence, I fly 8 days a month, but if I want to fly more the boss tells me to take the airplane and go practice, boss does not believe in taking a trip unless it is scheduled 4 weeks in advance (never on weekends or holdays, just Tue-Thurs) and to top it all off, 30K bonus December 1st every year. If I had that and you asked me what I did for a living, the conversation would go just like this:
You: What do you do for a living?
Me: I am in aviation
You: Are you a Pilot?
Me: Yes
You: What kind of plane do you fly?
Me: One of those prop jobs
You: Oh, you didn't want to be a real pilot and go fly for the airlines?
Me: Exactly