The real plan mgmt has for the future at Pinnacle

[altimaklr]

Keep negotiations going during the holidays to avoid a messy picket and work slow-down

In January, JCBA will fail and break down, 9E ALPA will be offered TA2 w/ slightly better health care and 10M signing bonus as an "interim" solution, it gets voted in

After the holidays are over and training catches up, XJ jets start moving to 9E certificate, starting with the CRJ200's

XJ pilots are given two impossible options - Move to EWR/IAH and fly the Q400 on the horrible Colgan contract, or go to 9E at zero seniority, 2nd year pay

XJ pilots sue, but Pinnacle mgmt stalls for years

By the time XJ pilot win in court, most XJ pilots will be gone and moved on. Company will have saved more $$ than they lose in any court judgement

9E mgmt stonewalls Colgan ALPA for years, 9E pilots work under their "interim" contract for another 10 years

 

[Raoul Duke]

The 3rd option is to offer a contract that is so good that PNCL mgt can't pass it up and make up for it with a big up front bonus. Tie the whole thing up for a couple of years to give everyone enought time to move on.

 

[CptMurf]

Keep negotiations going during the holidays to avoid a messy picket and work slow-down

In January, JCBA will fail and break down, 9E ALPA will be offered TA2 w/ slightly better health care and 10M signing bonus as an "interim" solution, it gets voted in

After the holidays are over and training catches up, XJ jets start moving to 9E certificate, starting with the CRJ200's

XJ pilots are given two impossible options - Move to EWR/IAH and fly the Q400 on the horrible Colgan contract, or go to 9E at zero seniority, 2nd year pay

XJ pilots sue, but Pinnacle mgmt stalls for years

By the time XJ pilot win in court, most XJ pilots will be gone and moved on. Company will have saved more $$ than they lose in any court judgement

9E mgmt stonewalls Colgan ALPA for years, 9E pilots work under their "interim" contract for another 10 years

Living in a fantasy world I see.

 

[Speedtape]

You have to have big Kahonas to get a contract. Othewise, negotiate another 5 years.

 

[RJLoser]

I have heard this from several sources. I know one thing for absolute certain...PCL mgt will do anything ANYTHING to keep costs down.

 

[1.3XVso]

On a serious note. I hope that this event will sprinkle some magic powder in our pilot groups balls sack and do something for once.

 

[redflyer65]

Guys, I hate to tell you this but Altimaklr is more right that he is wrong.

I have been predicting that PCL management will do whatever they what to do regarding moving aircraft and personel. The will simply give the union the finger and continue as they always have. Management will simply say 'sue us' in response. The union will, and it will drag out for years.

Don't believe me? How well did the scope arguement last when PCL bought Colgan? Management just does what they want at PCL, get used to it.

This whole thing about a JCBA is smoke and mirrors, just like the last 5 years. I always thought the PCL negotiatiors didn't know what they were doing, but in the end they have "Hosed" the union AT EVERY SINGLE TURN. It's been embarrasing.

 

[redflyer65]

PCL mgt will do anything ANYTHING to keep costs down.

Bingo.

This is how they have operated since the contract was inked in 1999. For over 11 years Pinnacle management has been arguing what the definition of 'is' is in the contract....and winning!

D.W., the magician. He could tour with Cris Angel, except he probably couldn't levitate.

 

[xjhawk]

So I take it the author of this thread is an FO at 9E looking for an upgrade to a Mesaba 900? From day one the selfish and childish ones at 9E have stated the transfer of Mesaba jets and little more than a staple for their pilots is an option. Get this people, 9E is short pilots now, guess what would happen if they attempted to cancel our (Mesaba) contract and dump our earned senirity? Yes many of us would leave or stop its operations. So they would again be in more of a HURT for pilots when the future tells us that regional airlines will be struggling for pilots with the new work rules and hiring criteria. So there you have it, many of us at XJ only want our contract and work rules and guess what that would mean for you 9E and colgan pilots? Yes that is right, a bug pay raise and a lot better work rules. Oh yeah and what else do we want? Fair and reasonable SLI. And what do some of you always hint at? screwing us over and dumping our seniority to behind your most Jr pilots. Guess what, if we do get that asset transfer all you idiots (just the idiots, not the good 9E guys and gals) want, and we are screwed on our SLI 9E will be in a HURt for pilots.

 

[MACH-TUCK]

Bingo.


D.W., the magician. He could tour with Cris Angel, except he probably couldn't levitate.

LOL!!!! Yeah, the only thing that levitates on D.W. body is his hand stuffing his fat face.

 

[Mel Sharples]

After the holidays are over and training catches up, XJ jets start moving to 9E certificate, starting with the CRJ200's

XJ pilots are given two impossible options - Move to EWR/IAH and fly the Q400 on the horrible Colgan contract, or go to 9E at zero seniority, 2nd year pay

The XJ contract isn't going anywhere. Colgan's operation is being absorbed by XJ as the Colgan flying is going on the XJ certificate. So even in your "worst case" scenario, those planes would be flown at the current XJ rates. There is no "horrible Colgan contract" because they don't have a contract.

The XJ CRJs are going to Pinnacle. Our contract says the pilots go with the planes. Sure, they could try and staple but I guarantee you they would find themselves with a huge pilot shortage overnight as none of the XJ pilots would show up for work.

There is a lot left to be played out to this but Pinnacle management doesn't hold nearly as good a hand as you may think they do.

 

[DoinTime]

The XJ contract isn't going anywhere. Colgan's operation is being absorbed by XJ as the Colgan flying is going on the XJ certificate. So even in your "worst case" scenario, those planes would be flown at the current XJ rates. There is no "horrible Colgan contract" because they don't have a contract.

The XJ CRJs are going to Pinnacle. Our contract says the pilots go with the planes. Sure, they could try and staple but I guarantee you they would find themselves with a huge pilot shortage overnight as none of the XJ pilots would show up for work.

There is a lot left to be played out to this but Pinnacle management doesn't hold nearly as good a hand as you may think they do.

I think the most likely thing that you will see if this blows up is that PNCL halts moving anything anywhere. All mergers and fragmentations called off. Pinnacle and Colgan pilots will return to their age old plights and Mesaba will go about what they had planned prior to the acquisition with the removal of the Saabs. In the end, Pinnacle and Colgan still wont have a contract and Mesaba will have 400-500 furloughs with the most junior CA at the 10 year mark.

That would adequately suck for everyone....thats really Pinnacle's style.

 

[CiFIknow]

I feel bad for the XJ guys. Such a long history...gone. Sucks.

 

[redflyer65]

I see it going more like this if the TA doesn't work..

PCL management moves the airframes wherever they like and tells the ALPA team to stick it, Mesaba was bought by a holding company NOT an airline.

Let the lawsuits begin, but in the meantime Pinnacle keeps on keeping on..

This could get real ugly fast.

RF

 

[gojo]

Ya, and you guys would let them. Seriously grow a pair, and stop waving the white flag!!!

 

[Smarta$$]

Ya, and you guys would let them. Seriously grow a pair, and stop waving the white flag!!!

Mesaba guys are perfectly content sitting back and giving management all the time they need to let their plan play out. No rush. Now, is it the plan that they are expecting????

Then, they will complain the Pinnacle pilots didn't do more.

 

[gojo]

I would say almost six years without a new contract is sitting back. How long has mesaba been involved in the negotiations, about 3 months or so? I remember our negotiations during our sham bankruptcy, which BTW wouldn't have been necessary if there wern't a few bottom feeders out there. Anyway, it wasn't a fun time either, but we had a contract relatively quick as compared to your six years of B.S. We were allowed very little latitude because our company was in bankruptcy. We couldn't strike. Now maybe I shouldn't have said what I said in my previous post. I haven't worked for Pinnacle, I never really wanted to, but here we are now, together in this mess. And I think we should find a way to make this work as a group. I get tired of listening to all the pessimistic comments. As I said, I haven't worked for Pinnacle, I don't know P.T. or anyone else in management so if it turns out your right I will gladly accept an I told you so over a beer (on me). I hope I'm wrong

 

[CptMurf]

3 months?!? Us XJ guys let it last that long? We need to STFD now!! These 9E guys have waited for a contract too long, and us waiting one more day is too long. Our negotiators don't know what we're in for. This mgmt. team is different than what we have dealt with in the past, they will lie and stall. We are weak by even negotiating with them.

Did I miss anything SmartA$$? (It's getting old.)

 

[Smarta$$]

I would say almost six years without a new contract is sitting back. How long has mesaba been involved in the negotiations, about 3 months or so? I remember our negotiations during our sham bankruptcy, which BTW wouldn't have been necessary if there wern't a few bottom feeders out there. Anyway, it wasn't a fun time either, but we had a contract relatively quick as compared to your six years of B.S. We were allowed very little latitude because our company was in bankruptcy. We couldn't strike. Now maybe I shouldn't have said what I said in my previous post. I haven't worked for Pinnacle, I never really wanted to, but here we are now, together in this mess. And I think we should find a way to make this work as a group. I get tired of listening to all the pessimistic comments. As I said, I haven't worked for Pinnacle, I don't know P.T. or anyone else in management so if it turns out your right I will gladly accept an I told you so over a beer (on me). I hope I'm wrong

Look, the extent of mesaba's participation in this negotiating process (besides committee work) is to show up prepared for negotiations. The rank and file do nothing at all. Now, that is EXACTLY what we have done for 6 years. Why would you expect a different outcome or characterize our sitting back any different than your sitting back.

I have nothing against you, but want to point out that doing the same thing we have been doing for 6 years is no strategy at all. Frankly, leaderships hands are tied by the pro-corporate laws of this nation, but the rank and file are free to make INDEPENDANT decisions about how safe to operate their aircraft.

Hoping this works out for all of us, skeptical based on history and observation.

 

[GRAAB HIRBOUBI]

This is what I see happening if management doesn't get a contract in the very near future...Delta and Continental/United start canceling contracts and giving the flying to Skywest and XJT. Colgan will become a large discount Q400 sales lots. Board of directors gets fired cause the stock crashes to .25

If Pinnacle starts shifting the planes and pilots from Mesaba, the scope provisions in our contract will be broken. I BELIEVE the RLA has provisions for this. Negotiations and 30 day cooling off periods won't apply and I think we could strike.

Pinnacle Corp can't afford to let this negotiation take very much longer. Soon it will be cheaper to just give us what we want. I could be wrong but if Colgan is Junior Manning 126 times a month and trying for more how many flights are going out on time? If Pinnacle is still understaffed whats going to happen when all of you start timing out the 12th of December?

I think that Pinnacle Corps only action is to start showing a level of stability. Granted even if the contract is agreed to in December, little can be done to correct the staffing issues in 3 weeks. But if Management can go to the mainline carriers and say there getting the house in order and have a plan to eliminate the problems within "X" amount of time, I think we all win.

 

[Smarta$$]

3 months?!? Us XJ guys let it last that long? We need to STFD now!! These 9E guys have waited for a contract too long, and us waiting one more day is too long. Our negotiators don't know what we're in for. This mgmt. team is different than what we have dealt with in the past, they will lie and stall. We are weak by even negotiating with them.

Did I miss anything SmartA$$? (It's getting old.)

Prove to me you have an effective, active strategy besides just showing up prepared to negotiate. Frankly, if this does work out it will be because of a legitimate business need and will have NOTHING WHAT SO EVER to do with the XJ MEC, who has done nothing wrong, but who has done nothing at all different than our MEC has done for YEARS. So far you have contributed nothing more than committee work and strategy brainstorming, of which I challenge you to reveal ANYTHING your MEC has suggested that was innovative or original. Something effective that was not tried or suggested before???? Anything besides showing up prepared????

Its getting old hearing how you guys know how to handle these situations, when it turns out you handle them the same way we do. You have proven to be no more than the wet noodle that Pinnacle pilots have always been.

 

[bri5150]

Prove to me you have an effective, active strategy besides just showing up prepared to negotiate. Frankly, if this does work out it will be because of a legitimate business need and will have NOTHING WHAT SO EVER to do with the XJ MEC, who has done nothing wrong, but who has done nothing at all different than our MEC has done for YEARS. So far you have contributed nothing more than committee work and strategy brainstorming, of which I challenge you to reveal ANYTHING your MEC has suggested that was innovative or original. Something effective that was not tried or suggested before???? Anything besides showing up prepared????

Its getting old hearing how you guys know how to handle these situations, when it turns out you handle them the same way we do. You have proven to be no more than the wet noodle that Pinnacle pilots have always been.

I can't believe I am jumping in on this again. The amount of time worked on THIS contract (not YOUR contract) has been 3 months. What the hell do you want man? What has YOUR MEC come up with that is original? Has your MEC even showed up prepared? How are Mesaba pilots a wet noodle? Our union spent millions of dollars in bankrupty fighting our company that wanted to just impose a contract. From what I know, in 2004, operations were actually shut down for a night just before management gave us a contract. What has Pinnacle done? Stop attacking us. WE ARE NOT YOUR PROBLEM!!!! There will be a time in which it will make sense to burn the place down if we don't get a contract. When there is momentum in negotiations, things are actually getting done, and we are getting most of what we are asking for, I don't think that's a good time to burn it down. Have you even heard about what has been TA'ed? I honestly haven't heard one thing that isn't the same as, or an improvement on our current book. I would imagine it would be even better for you considering your current contract.

 

[Smarta$$]

You missed the point entirely. Try rereading it again.

 

[GRAAB HIRBOUBI]

You missed the point entirely. Try rereading it again.

I have reread what you wrote.
We don't have to prove anything to you. I frankly don't care what you think about our MEC. Except for 3 things our current contract is so beyond what you have that I am worried you guys will accept less thus giving me a paycut. Which is something I will not accept.

Who knows what will happen if something doesn't get signed in the next 3 days of negotiations. My union is hopeful. I will go with that.

 

[RJLoser]

I think what smarta** is saying is that your time is running short. I think these joint negotiations may be a dog a pony show. I think XJ's ship may have already sailed by the end of the week. What XJ does not understand is that PCL mgt is going to do exactly what their business model dictates. This has been successful for them.

 

[gojo]

Well when Pinnacle holdings bought us, they also bought our contract. I'm pretty sure since we are not in section six and our contract is willfully violated that we can strike imediatly. How would that go for Pinnacle? It would not be in anyones best interest to not settle this with one contract and one list

 

[CptMurf]

Do the 9E guys get the same number / same quality updates from their negotiators and MEC that we do? Because everything I have heard from our guys has said the deal is close. Not done, and there is still a lot of work to do in some sections. But they ALL seem very encouraging of the process so far and optimistic that the TA will be coming soon. This may sound like koolaid, but I have never caught our union lying to us over my 12 years here. Defiantly not the doom and gloom some of the 9E guys propagate here.

Then again, maybe they just aren't listening to their reps.

 

[DoinTime]

Well when Pinnacle holdings bought us, they also bought our contract. I'm pretty sure since we are not in section six and our contract is willfully violated that we can strike imediatly. How would that go for Pinnacle?

Nope...You're completely wrong about that. I've not heard that anything Pinnacle Corp has planned would violate your agreement anyway. Am I missing something? They will transfer the XJ jets to Pinnacle and they will offer employment to the dislocated pilots. Seniority integration terms will be up to ALPA, not the company.

 

[higney85]

Do the 9E guys get the same number / same quality updates from their negotiators and MEC that we do? Because everything I have heard from our guys has said the deal is close. Not done, and there is still a lot of work to do in some sections. But they ALL seem very encouraging of the process so far and optimistic that the TA will be coming soon. This may sound like koolaid, but I have never caught our union lying to us over my 12 years here. Defiantly not the doom and gloom some of the 9E guys propagate here.

Then again, maybe they just aren't listening to their reps.

Not to ruffle feathers... But the Pinnacle pilots know that over 40 issues still remain for a JCBA. The 9E pilots went on ice back in late June trying to finish up our last six (6). This info and a laundry list of those items in broad strokes has been emailed to all the pilots as of about a week ago.

 

[gojo]

I should know better than to listen to some poeple. I just got done talking to a 9E FO and he was saying that the plan was to move the planes to the 9E cert. and staple us on the bottom as FO's at new hire or 2nd year pay. That would be a pretty big violation. I'm not sure why I let it get to me?