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The real plan mgmt has for the future at Pinnacle

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Are 9E pilots not hearing the same things from their union leadership as we at mesaba are? Our leadership are hopeful that in the next few days the remaining issues can be knocked out and we will have a viable TA. Everything I have heard says that what already has been penned in good for all our pilots and what they are asking for is in line with what we have (at Mesaba) with some tweaking to make it better. I do not know what the plan is if something is not TA'd but I have heard most think our contract will remain in effect. I have also heard through many different sources that Pinnacle Corp has been warned by Continental and Delta about its performance numbers and has been told a staffing model such as Mesaba is preferred. Same was said about their training programs. I think the writing is on the wall and in order to grow with Continental (United) and get more flying from Delta Pinnacle will have to pony up and at least bring a contract to the table that is at least up to Mesaba pilot standards (which I can assure you, will be good for us all).
 
xjhawk said:
Are 9E pilots not hearing the same things from their union leadership as we at mesaba are? Our leadership are hopeful that in the next few days the remaining issues can be knocked out and we will have a viable TA. Everything I have heard says that what already has been penned in good for all our pilots and what they are asking for is in line with what we have (at Mesaba) with some tweaking to make it better. I do not know what the plan is if something is not TA'd but I have heard most think our contract will remain in effect. I have also heard through many different sources that Pinnacle Corp has been warned by Continental and Delta about its performance numbers and has been told a staffing model such as Mesaba is preferred. Same was said about their training programs. I think the writing is on the wall and in order to grow with Continental (United) and get more flying from Delta Pinnacle will have to pony up and at least bring a contract to the table that is at least up to Mesaba pilot standards (which I can assure you, will be good for us all).
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You and I are on the same page. However the rumblings from many at Pinnacle are that we are about to be thrown under the bus. I don't know whether this is coming from management or the rank and file.
 
xjhawk said:
Pinnacle will have to pony up and at least bring a contract to the table that is at least up to Mesaba pilot standards (which I can assure you, will be good for us all).
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HAHAHAHAHA!!! Mesaba contract good enough for life at Pinnacle? You have no idea what you are in for. There is no chance the Mesaba contract would pass at Pinnacle. Outside of a few bright spots, it pretty much sucks.
 
xjhawk said:
Are 9E pilots not hearing the same things from their union leadership as we at mesaba are? Our leadership are hopeful that in the next few days the remaining issues can be knocked out and we will have a viable TA. Everything I have heard says that what already has been penned in good for all our pilots and what they are asking for is in line with what we have (at Mesaba) with some tweaking to make it better. I do not know what the plan is if something is not TA'd but I have heard most think our contract will remain in effect. I have also heard through many different sources that Pinnacle Corp has been warned by Continental and Delta about its performance numbers and has been told a staffing model such as Mesaba is preferred. Same was said about their training programs. I think the writing is on the wall and in order to grow with Continental (United) and get more flying from Delta Pinnacle will have to pony up and at least bring a contract to the table that is at least up to Mesaba pilot standards (which I can assure you, will be good for us all).
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That is correct. Most of our union email is pessimistic at best. picketing preparation is already being made when the negotiations fail. It's fair to say most 9E pilots view the XJ pilots as naive/over-optimist.
 
altimaklr said:
That is correct. Most of our union email is pessimistic at best. picketing preparation is already being made when the negotiations fail. It's fair to say most 9E pilots view the XJ pilots as naive/over-optimist.
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You know what, that's fine, I take being called over-optimistic. I would rather hear that than your screwed and we're going try to screw you some more in integration.

I've talked to my reps and I've talked with our negotiators. These are my friends... I've flown with them in both seats on 3 different airplanes, I've gotten drunk with them, I've upgraded with them, I've downgraded with them, they have never lied to me, and have no reason to. They have all told me, the negotiations are going well, and that it has been eye opening to both 9E negotiators and mgmt. in how XJ negotiators and our lawyer approach contract items. The timeline was tight (45 days does not equal 45 days at the table), and somewhat unrealistic. But they are optimistic that it will be done by the 2nd.

I will listen to my friends, my reps, over ANY 9E pilot, rep or not (sorry Higney) on how this will go down. And it is not even close to the "transfer the a/c, offer employment, JCBA failure" crap I read on these boards. Why are ALL XJ posts constructive and optimistic and ALL 9E posts doom and gloom?
 
DoinTime said:
HAHAHAHAHA!!! Mesaba contract good enough for life at Pinnacle? You have no idea what you are in for. There is no chance the Mesaba contract would pass at Pinnacle. Outside of a few bright spots, it pretty much sucks.
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Since a JCBA is a merging of the current contracts, not section 6 negotiations, I would not expect more than the best pieces of ALL our CBAs. The TA was vastly improved over your current contract, and almost passed. Now it's being merged with the high points of our contract, which will only make it better. I predict, the JCBA will pass at all the pilot groups with little to no resistance.
 
DoinTime said:
HAHAHAHAHA!!!There is no chance the Mesaba contract would pass at Pinnacle. Outside of a few bright spots, it pretty much sucks.
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OK, I'll bite. I voted for the bankruptcy LOA - because I had a gun to my head and I gambled that things would get better. They did and I feel the pilots ended up pretty good.

So tell me how our contract is so bad compared to what you have now. I mean I understand the blended FO rates are the anti-christ and our health insurance rates are awful...but there must be a few things that make the contract acceptable?

What are Pinnacle Pilots so anxious to get that so much better than we have now? Right now I am making $6 an hour more than a Pinnacle pilot in the same position and equipment.

I have been sarcastic.
But I am really tired of being called stupid and that I am going to lose my position, base, and seniority. I sincerely want to know what you have better than me. I want to know what you have NOT what you propose. That's bogus cause you've gotten nothing.
 
CptMurf said:
You know what, that's fine, I take being called over-optimistic. I would rather hear that than your screwed and we're going try to screw you some more in integration.

I've talked to my reps and I've talked with our negotiators. These are my friends... I've flown with them in both seats on 3 different airplanes, I've gotten drunk with them, I've upgraded with them, I've downgraded with them, they have never lied to me, and have no reason to. They have all told me, the negotiations are going well, and that it has been eye opening to both 9E negotiators and mgmt. in how XJ negotiators and our lawyer approach contract items. The timeline was tight (45 days does not equal 45 days at the table), and somewhat unrealistic. But they are optimistic that it will be done by the 2nd.

I will listen to my friends, my reps, over ANY 9E pilot, rep or not (sorry Higney) on how this will go down. And it is not even close to the "transfer the a/c, offer employment, JCBA failure" crap I read on these boards. Why are ALL XJ posts constructive and optimistic and ALL 9E posts doom and gloom?
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MAYBE because the 9E guys are tired of being crapped on by mgmt over the years
 
First off this is a disclaimer(Sorry for spelling and grammer): there are two Items that bug the carp out of me right now, so bare with me.

1 Contract:
Guys lets stop the my union is better then your union. Our company sucks worst then your company. My contract is better then your contract. your going to get more out of this contract then I'am. Everybody at the three companies have receive a crap sandwich one way or another. Its time to combine the three sandwiches together and give it back to the company. This is what Pncl Crop wants the pilot groups doing is infighting with one another, Pncl Corp is trying to divide and conquer. Guys tell your union what you want and if you can't say anything nice then don't say anything at all. Right now the pilot group has the upper hand with mgmt. You might not think so but we really do. There are many factors playing in to PNCL getting one contract DL, CO, and UA are not going to put up with PNCL not having a contract. PNCL has 33 percent of DL flying now and DL does not want another comair shut down. Lets just wait and see what the three unions can get and we go from there. If there isn't somthing you like about the contract tell your union. We have to learn to work together because we still have to go against skywest, mesa, and republic.

Seniority List:
I try not to post much about this whole 9E/XJ/(sorry I dont know colgans). I'm a guy at mesaba, so "I have a chip in the pot so to say". I know this is very hard, but can the older guys at each company start showing some since of leadership and straighten out these younger guys about this seniority ordeal. I'm really getting sick of a couple of 9E FO's guys on the shuttle in MEM making coments about senority is going to be 2 for 1 for mesaba guys or 3 for 1, by the way that was last weeks convo on the shuttle. I try to keep my mouth shut, bit my lip, and go on my merry way. Every time I fly with our FO's when they makes coments on the intergrations ordeal, I make it a point to tell them to shut there mouths in public because one its not very professional and 2 you never know who is listening. I really don't care what people say in private, but zip the lip in public because saying stupid things like seniority list right now is going to piss off the other guys and then ill will sets in. Every FO at every company needs to keep in mind, that pretty soon they will be flying with the other guys and vice of verse. I really don't think Pncl Corp wants an AWA/US Airways issue, and if they do, you can keep your shinney jet. I dont have SJS(Shinney Jet Syndrome) I'll be gald to leave the CRJ 900 for the Q400. It would be another free type rating to add to the resume.

Just remember that its not just three pilot groups combining its three cultures combining also. It helps to understand where the other guy is coming from, and if you don't understand then be a bigger person and ask to get a better understanding.
 
I've talked to my reps and I've talked with our negotiators. These are my friends... I've flown with them in both seats on 3 different airplanes, I've gotten drunk with them, I've upgraded with them, I've downgraded with them, they have never lied to me, and have no reason to. They have all told me, the negotiations are going well, and that it has been eye opening to both 9E negotiators and mgmt. in how XJ negotiators and our lawyer approach contract items. The timeline was tight (45 days does not equal 45 days at the table), and somewhat unrealistic. But they are optimistic that it will be done by the 2nd.
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I look forward to revisiting this post on the night of Dec 2nd. LOL!
 
There is a lot to be done. I am not sure that it can be completed. But I really believe that it will be close. No one will be 100% happy. But if we can end up even a little bit better than we are now, I will be happy.

I am really sorry you feel your MEC/LEC aren't working in your best interest. In our phone conference and emails I get the impression that both the Colgan and Pinnacle union reps are working together to benefit us all.

I REALLY don't know what pilots at 9E and 9L are going through. I am happy that you guys are educating my union about specific details. Believe me this co-operation is great. During the bankruptcy the union coalition made a big difference. Don't underestimate the power of the groups getting together.

And from my earlier post...I am sincerely interested in what makes our contract so unpassable by the 9E group.
 
coonass said:
Pncl Corp is trying to divide and conquer.
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This is false. The only ones trying to divide and conquer are some of the Pinnacle pilots. What has the company done or said that makes you think they are trying to divide us? I have heard nothing but wanting to merge the lists from the company.
 
bri5150 said:
This is false. The only ones trying to divide and conquer are some of the Pinnacle pilots. What has the company done or said that makes you think they are trying to divide us? I have heard nothing but wanting to merge the lists from the company.
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That's what I figured. It seems some are salivating at the thought of advancement at the expense of others.
 
Flyer1015 said:
I look forward to revisiting this post on the night of Dec 2nd. LOL!
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Why? To gloat if it's not TA'd? Really that is what your hoping for?!?

I am hopeful it we be done by that deadline. If it's not, I reiterate to my post from a previous thread, a new deadline will be set and nothing else will happen. It will be done soon, and no deadline is going to make us settle for less of a contract.
 
CptMurf said:
I'll be glad when it's ALL done. It's obvious we have different pilot group cultures though. It's going to be interesting in the flight decks for awhile.
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I honestly don't think the flight deck is going to be a problem. But I do agree it will be nice when everything is finished.

I don't know what's going to happen over the next few days and I certainly have no delusions that Uncle Phil will roll over. But if Delta and Continental are really unhappy - maybe the next few days will be productive.

You know Pinnacle guys you are right about the fact that we Mesaba guys are not familiar with how Pinnacle flagrantly breaks the contract. While we do get some stretching, generally Mesaba honors the contract - of course that's after we finally get a contract.

I am also beginning to think that Pinnacle Corp really didn't know what they were getting into when they bought us. In speaking to an instructor involved in the training side of negotiations, I get the feeling that Corp is getting an education they weren't expecting. Now I am not saying better or worse but I think the slowness of the last 45 days has more to do with the company having to learn about us because they don't know how to counter our side of the negotiations.

I know there will be changes in training. I just don't know what direction. Anyway, GOOD LUCK to all of us. I really hope things get worked out.
 
Ahh... poor XJ guys, you are used to dealing with a rational mgmt team. Recall, PNCL has lost business in the recent past due to the pilot contract problem. They lost former Mesa 900's to ASA and XJ, 200's to XJ, and $1M monthly penalties due to massive cancellations this year. Mgmt is completely fixated on low labor costs, and are willing to spend $1 to save 20 cents. United and Delta will continue giving business to this company because they are often 50% cheaper than other airlines, and provide a good product about 90-95% of the time.
 
altimaklr said:
Ahh... poor XJ guys, you are used to dealing with a rational mgmt team.
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HAHAHAHAHA!!!!! Evidently you have no idea what XJs dealt with over the last 10 years. Poor 9E guys, you have lost all motivation to prevail, and would rather spend all your energy telling XJ pilots how they are going to fail.
 
CptMurf said:
Why? To gloat if it's not TA'd? Really that is what your hoping for?!?

I am hopeful it we be done by that deadline. If it's not, I reiterate to my post from a previous thread, a new deadline will be set and nothing else will happen. It will be done soon, and no deadline is going to make us settle for less of a contract.
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THERE IS NO MORE NEW DEADLINE! The 'Company' has self-imposed a 5pm central deadline time on Dec 2. IF we have no JCBA by then, it is over. You guys continue being under your current sucky CBA, and we go back into our even more suckier CBA, in section 6 negotiations, on ice from the NMB.

And mark my words: the fleet transfer of RJs to Pinnacle and the turboprop merger of Mesaba/Colgan will happen without a JCBA. Read up on your fragmentation clause as well. Pinnacle Corp will have no mercy.
 
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So if a fleet transfer does happen with out a JCBA, will the 9E pilots refuse to fly them? I would hope so. Also would XJ have the authority to strike?
 
Flyer1015 said:
THERE IS NO MORE NEW DEADLINE! The 'Company' has self-imposed a 5pm central deadline time on Dec 2. IF we have no JCBA by then, it is over. You guys continue being under your current sucky CBA, and we go back into our even more suckier CBA, in section 6 negotiations, on ice from the NMB.
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Only time will tell, but I bet if the deals not inked by 5:01 on DEC 2nd, a new self-imposed deadline will be set.
Flyer1015 said:
And mark my words: the fleet transfer of RJs to Pinnacle and the turboprop merger of Mesaba/Colgan will happen without a JCBA. Read up on your fragmentation clause as well. Pinnacle Corp will have no mercy.
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And Corp will die a costly death due to training costs, unemployment benefits, and lost flying to DAL and UAL. I will not leave XJ to fly under your current contract. I would like to think the 9E pilots would refuse to fly them if they were transferred.

Are you trying to scare me/us for some reason? Because it isn't working. I've been threatened before, just never from a fellow pilot.
 
Flyer1015 said:
THERE IS NO MORE NEW DEADLINE! The 'Company' has self-imposed a 5pm central deadline time on Dec 2. IF we have no JCBA by then, it is over. You guys continue being under your current sucky CBA, and we go back into our even more suckier CBA, in section 6 negotiations, on ice from the NMB.

And mark my words: the fleet transfer of RJs to Pinnacle and the turboprop merger of Mesaba/Colgan will happen without a JCBA. Read up on your fragmentation clause as well. Pinnacle Corp will have no mercy.
Click to expand...

What is your problem? Look up the word UNION. We are in this together. If what you say is does happen don't you think it would be in everyone's best interest to fight it? You sound like you have no balls. Ok just beat us somemore and I'll just sit back and watch. It is us (you included) that should have no mercy if anything close to what you predict goes down. I am familiar with our contract and I'm not sure why, but there seems to be many intepretations of it. And where did you hear that Pinnacle Corp will not extend past 5:00PM on Thursday? We haven't been hearing anything like that. In fact, the opposite. If things are close, and good progress is being made they will keep working on it. It is truely in everyones best interest to get a JCBA, yes even Pinnacle corps
 

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