The real plan mgmt has for the future at Pinnacle

[MACH-TUCK]

I feel divided on this issue of picketing in general, I have walked the line many times here at 9E and a couple of times with XJ, all the while wondering what the hell I am doing here walking in a circle? On one hand I feel that it really doesn't accomplishes much and its a waste of time. On the other hand I feel it can bring a pilot group together and show some unity and solidarity towards management.

I have to ask myself whether or not I think this picketing event is in the best interest of the pilot group?? Is it? I think it is, because it looks like management is up to their old ways of delay tactics and I wish I was wrong.

If my MEC and Negotiators tell me that management is playing the same old game and wants concessions on Health Insurance, Scheduling, and Vacation, then we are not making any "progress" and this is clearly a delay tactic and one way to show management how pissed off I am is via picketing...

anyway, rant over and FLY SAFE MY FRIENDS!!!

 

[SEVEN]

What the hell I am doing here walking in a circle? I feel that it really doesn't accomplishes much and its a waste of time.

Exactly.

 

[AiRegency]

Why in the hell did any 9E guys ever walk in a circle to support XJ? What a waste of time. Won't ever make that mistake again.

 

[TurboAWD]

I don't have a problem with picketing, and while it may or may not have helped, I seriously doubt it slowed anything down either.

The JCBA is the best path going forward. The 9E reps know that. They just have certain things they need to see to reccomend it to the pilots. I base that on talking to several of them.

We need to come out of this with a deal that locks down Pinnacle Corp, gives us something that is good now and that we can build on in the future.

Don't get your knickers in a twist people. We will mostly likely all be working together soon. And you know what? We are all the same. Really. Come on, how different can a group that is comprised of people that have basicly the same demographics and share the same overly inflated egos really be?

We can all win here.

 

[bri5150]

Heck of a stall tactic by management. Come in for more negotiating on a Saturday. They really should have been working all night long. Shut it down!!

 

[tiffanytaylor]

In other news, Comair has been sold to SkyWest. Announcement end of December.

 

[xjhawk]

Why in the hell did any 9E guys ever walk in a circle to support XJ? What a waste of time. Won't ever make that mistake again.

Come now, all this bitterness is not called for. So now you just group all pilots into a group and hate them all and not make a choice to support what might be coming down the pipe in the future. I will tell you what, our MEC has always said good things about your pilot group, the majority of our pilots know and respect most of your pilots. Its the individuals and now apparently your union leadership trying to create a rift between our two pilot groups. I will tell you what, even after hearing some of your less intellegent guys tell me that they wanted "their planes back", they wanted use "stapled" they wanted to "give" us 3:1 or 5:1 seniority or even "offer" us jobs, I still say we should support you guys because you have been treated like crap for way too long. But that support does not include making rash decisions that might hinder/hurt our current negotiations that seem to be making progress. It is our decision to do what is best for these negotiations which I might add includes 9E.

I think your MEC has not informed your pilot group on what is in our contract, instead has shot holes in it saying our scheduling section is not that good (this is right from a couple of your pilots). I will tell you what, our min day, block or better, cancelation pay, 11 days off and many more things make that section pretty good. Yes there is room for improvement in such areas as reserve rules and FO pay but they are still more than likely better than 9E's section.

All I am saying is lets give this negative crap a break and see where this takes us. if as you all say happens and we do not get a TA, then lets picket together in full unity. I do not want to bash your union leaders but from what I have heard most of your pilots do not have much faith in them while I watched in bankruptcy our union leaders fight with their hand tied in a bankruptcy court to get us the best they possibly could which is not too bad in my opinion.

What are we losing in this joint negotiations?

we are losing our section 6 negotiations which might have given us leaps and bounds better work rules concerning reserve and FO pay

 

[AiRegency]

I will tell you what, our MEC has always said good things about your pilot group, the majority of our pilots know and respect most of your pilots.

That's a load of kr@p and you know it. It's always been a source of comedy at 9E how much better you XJ guys have convinced yourselves you are then Pinnacle. Just read the posts of all your fellow XJ guys in this thread. SEVEN's attitude is not unusual.

Its the individuals and now apparently your union leadership trying to create a rift between our two pilot groups.

Our union leadership? Let me tell you what. This pilot group has been begging and pleading for the chance to picket. Our MEC finally gave us what we wanted. We've played the game in the past of canceling pickets due to management cooperation. But it was never worth it. We're not canceling this time. Not for anybody. Your pilot group was invited to picket with us and initially your MEC supported it. Then they changed their minds and withdrew. So don't give us this $hit that it was 9E that flew the coup. And it sure as heck isn't our MEC that drove a wedge between the pilot groups. Our MEC hasn't made up our minds for us. They haven't instructed the 9E pilot group as to how we should feel about your MEC's actions. Your MEC did what it did, your pilot group supported it (not one single XJ pilot picketed with us) and all the 9E pilots can read the writing on the wall. It's obvious how we should feel. We can make u our own minds.

And by the way, news flash here: 9E pilot's don't want to derail these negotiations! A decent contract is a decent contract. Who cares if it's shared by two other pilot groups. 9E pilot's just want a fair contract! That is all! Just because management is taking a few steps in our direction doesn't mean you let up on the pressure. We plan on keeping that pressure high even if we have to do it by ourselves. They really hate picketing, so that's exactly what we plan on doing. Alot. If they hate it then they can avoid more of it by presenting us with a fair contract ASAP. But one day, once you guys have been integrated (through finesse or force) you will receive the education you are so sorely missing up till now on what this management group is like. We'll talk more then.

 

[xjhawk]

Oh come on, like we do not know what mean or bad management is like. While you were growing and accepting planes we were in a fake/sham of a bankruptcy and losing everything we had in terms of a contract (which was all controled by our awesome judicial system). You act as though we do not know bad times. Oh and if you listen to the hot heads who rant the negative crap on here know that that is the very slim minority and they do not have the balls to speak up in person so their opinion is pretty much not a factor. I sense your bitterness that we as a pilot group did not support your picketing, you can feel that way all you want. But when our MEC who has made a lot of great decisions for us (i have not agreeed 100% with them on everything but trust their opinion on this 100%). Oh and I and many others do not think our union dropped the ball or pulled out of your picketing, they feel that since the negotiations are going in the right direction it is not in anyones best interest to picket. From what I hear there were many sources that said not to picket, including ALPA national (so your chairmans letter calling our lack of support...no brotherhood crap is just that, crap) This negotation is separate from your old contract negotiations and until there is an impass in negotiations, then I support the no picketing (BTW I must say that we should not forget 9E's history on negotiations and if it goes that way, the hammer should fall-strike or whatever)

Anyways, end the bitterness. try to ......ahh nevermind, this will all work itself out. I think I am sick of hearing this crap, lets just hope the proposal that the union sent to the company will be accepted

 

[DoinTime]

I think I am sick of hearing this crap, lets just hope the proposal that the union sent to the company will be accepted

There have been hundreds of proposals made in these negotiations, what makes you think that they are just going to accept this one that includes the big work rules and the primary compensation pieces?

 

[gojo]

There have been hundreds of proposals made in these negotiations, what makes you think that they are just going to accept this one that includes the big work rules and the primary compensation pieces?

Maybe they won't, but if you don't aim for the bulls eye how close are they going to get?

 

[sinkrate]

Maybe they won't, but if you don't aim for the bulls eye how close are they going to get?

If it is that easy don't you think they would have tried that by now? After five years?

Negotiations are an endless match of maneuver, parry, counter, maneuver, jab, maneuver, etc..... You are trying to discover your opponent’s sensitive issues and pressure points without showing them yours. 'Aiming for the bulls eye' is almost always a big mistake. Your proposal is easily parried, you learn nothing of your opponent and he learns volumes about your goals. Normally, a pummeling at the table shortly follows such folly.

Pinnacle management has a very, very experienced team at the table. Between them they have been through more than ten different negotiations in every venue imaginable, at a number of different carriers. Your rookies aren't going to hit them with a knock out punch. If they try and throw one they just leave themselves open for a big counter punch. Hopefully, they will listen to their legal counsel. That a really veteran team too.

 

[gojo]

If it is that easy don't you think they would have tried that by now? After five years?

Negotiations are an endless match of maneuver, parry, counter, maneuver, jab, maneuver, etc..... You are trying to discover your opponent’s sensitive issues and pressure points without showing them yours. 'Aiming for the bulls eye' is almost always a big mistake. Your proposal is easily parried, you learn nothing of your opponent and he learns volumes about your goals. Normally, a pummeling at the table shortly follows such folly.

Pinnacle management has a very, very experienced team at the table. Between them they have been through more than ten different negotiations in every venue imaginable, at a number of different carriers. Your rookies aren't going to hit them with a knock out punch. If they try and throw one they just leave themselves open for a big counter punch. Hopefully, they will listen to their legal counsel. That a really veteran team too.

I'm just saying, they have to try. What I keep hearing is that nothing is going to work

 

[CptMurf]

Actually negotiations are an over reach in expectations on both sides of the table. Then a whittling away to an acceptable middle ground. This takes time, and trust that a middle ground can be reached.

Protracted negotiations tend to lose focus. This JNC has the advantage of only setting their goals 72 days ago, with outside pressures on mgmt. So far they have done an outstanding job, and I support them fully to attain a good contract. That includes giving them time to do it.

 

[xjhawk]

Actually negotiations are an over reach in expectations on both sides of the table. Then a whittling away to an acceptable middle ground. This takes time, and trust that a middle ground can be reached.

Protracted negotiations tend to lose focus. This JNC has the advantage of only setting their goals 72 days ago, with outside pressures on mgmt. So far they have done an outstanding job, and I support them fully to attain a good contract. That includes giving them time to do it.

Well said. I have been thinking about those of you on here who think nothing will ever work and that no contact can be had and if a TA does occur you will be too bitter to vote yes no matter how good it is. The last two sections are the biggest but as for compensation, I am sure the final numbers will be something a little better than Mesabas rates because that is the bottom "line in the sand" If they cannot meet that I will join any picket and I am sure Mesaba's union will agree

Here is an idea for all of you right now. I saw you should do your own private version of a strike. Its called quit, really stick it too them and do not even put in a two week notice! Then do me a favor, get a job at a cargo or fractional so I do not have to read your crap on here

 

[sinkrate]

Actually negotiations are an over reach in expectations on both sides of the table. Then a whittling away to an acceptable middle ground. This takes time, and trust that a middle ground can be reached.

Protracted negotiations tend to lose focus. This JNC has the advantage of only setting their goals 72 days ago, with outside pressures on mgmt. So far they have done an outstanding job, and I support them fully to attain a good contract. That includes giving them time to do it.

What do you do when the other side has no intention of reaching the 'middle ground'? And tells you that.

 

[CptMurf]

What do you do when the other side has no intention of reaching the 'middle ground'? And tells you that.

We're not there yet. We are giving proposals, they are countering. Negotiations continue, in good faith, and resume tomorrow I believe.

This is the JCBA.... Protracted Section 6 negotiations were paused 74 days ago. We need to focus on this for now, for the good of all of us.

 

[belchfire]

You guys are about to buy UPS!

Break out the champagne!

3 More DC-10's...or is it 10 more DC-3's?

Whatever smoke management is blowing up your anal orifice, prepare for the opposite-the worst possible outcome...even if I'm wrong you will get a pleasant surprise at the best.

me oh my, cynical tonight, aren't we?

Yeah, pretty much, and with good reason!

I've been exposed to some escapees from Flagship management...

They'll breed, you'll die!

 

[snap145]

The plain and simple facts are as such...you XJ guys think we have no unity and no balls ( I agree )....you made that very clear with your actions not to support our picketing, the problem I have with that is you all sit on here and rant and rave about unity and then you stab the 9E pilots in the back...remember one thing...when this is all over WE will be sharing a cockpit...I will give credit where credit is due, most of the XJ guys on here make alot of sense, and we all have to look out for number 1 and our families I get that, but what I think you guys are completley overlooking is how ugly this SLI will get if we dont get a JCBA...if this thing goes to Section 6 negotiations, it will be VERY ugly for anyone wearing Blue and Gray, thats just the reality of the tactics of a tenacious management group. Please remember that if at ANYTIME throughout the JCBA negotiations any one of the three parties, be it 9E, 9L or XJ wants to get up and walk out off the table.....they can...no questions asked...if I were a Mesaba pilot that would scare the crap out of me...yes i said it..having my future laying partially in the hands of the Pinnacle MEC...HAHAHA what a frightening concept!!!...the smart and rational people on here from XJ are the ones who realize that UNITY between us is the ONLY case for survival...a JCBA benefits both the 9E and XJ groups or neither would be at the negotiating table...ultimatley our respective unions should represent and do whats best for us as individual groups not collectivley as a team...the stinger is...we as Pinnacle pilots dont really understand how leaving us to walk alone is an act of unity or good bargaining faith from the mesaba table...I truly hope this JCBA goes through for all of our sake...

 

[bri5150]

I think you guys are completley overlooking is how ugly this SLI will get if we dont get a JCBA...if this thing goes to Section 6 negotiations, it will be VERY ugly for anyone wearing Blue and Gray, thats just the reality of the tactics of a tenacious management group. Please remember that if at ANYTIME throughout the JCBA negotiations any one of the three parties, be it 9E, 9L or XJ wants to get up and walk out off the table.....they can...no questions asked...if I were a Mesaba pilot that would scare the crap out of me

Can someone tell me why management should care where the Mesaba pilots are on the seniortity list? Unless SLI adjusts LONGEVITY, then the costs are basically the same if Mesaba is stapled or if Pinncale is stapled. We are all getting paid based on years of service, not where we are on the seniority list. I guess maybe a little savings having the senior pilots on the lower paying aircraft?

Also, I am not that scared of 9E leaving the table because they won't be better off on their own. This is the third time asking this on this forum, and I have yet to get a response. Are Mesaba and Colgan holding the Pinnacle pilots back from getting their "dream" contract? Would Pinnacle have more leverage negotiating on their own? Would Pinnacle benefit from a whipsaw? Okay, the last question is a new one, but it's relevant.