The Evil of PFT......

[geographer]

My wife and I enjoyed the post. Thanks for the laughs. As a GIA PFT these post are great and by the way I used your tax money to pay for my training with the GI bill. I cannot believe it cost $25K to go through the program thats alot more than it cost out of pocket for me to go from 0 hours to over 3000 with a type rating and my ATP. The good thing is we are upgrading and hiring FO's from the program. Talk to you in another year or so when I have absolutely nothing else to do with my time.

 

[Britpilot]

Re: Re: Continental Express

If you are hired at a company and you require training to become qualified in the equipment they fly, I would assume they would invest in you to survive during that training process.

Well they do realize that most of these applicants have mummy and daddy pay their bills during the time they are not being paid sh!t.

That my friends is a company taking advantage of a new-hire. They don't even have any confidence in who they just spent so much time interviewing and screening.

That is just wrong!!

I belive that you are wrong.
XJet provides a hotel and per diem during initial training.

 

[TopGun-MAV]

the way i see it, you have to invest in your future. i'm going through training in a beech1900 right now for an airline and i only have 360 hours. getting right into the 121 environment is the best way to do it. i know its not cheap but going to law school isn't cheap either. very few places are hiring right now, and i believe in a few years when i have some left seat time i will have a good shot at jet blue.

i feel the need... the need for speed!!!

 

[bobbysamd]

Flamebait

Review of your profile shows that you are twenty-three (23) years old. You don't have to "hurry," primarily because you will hurry up and wait while the furloughees are recalled. So, that always-bogus justification for P-F-T is a non-starter.

So, how's it going at Gulfstream /TAB?

(Third note to self: Do not respond to flamebait.)

 

[GogglesPisano]

the way i see it, you have to invest in your future. i'm going through training in a beech1900 right now for an airline and i only have 360 hours. getting right into the 121 environment is the best way to do it. i know its not cheap but going to law school isn't cheap either. very few places are hiring right now, and i believe in a few years when i have some left seat time i will have a good shot at jet blue.

i feel the need... the need for speed!!!

Ahh, to be young and naive again.

 

[skypirate]

I don't understand a lot of you people. Over the years I have flown with many different types of F/Os. PFTs and CFIs and I tell you something I have found good and bad in BOTH categories. The way a person gets there credentials shouldn't be held against them. If they can show professionalism and show that they can fly, then that should be enough. If you are all so upset and pissed off at PFTers then sounds to me like its a personal insecurity. Leave them alone and let them make it however they want. If they want to pay let em pay. We all pay in some form or another.

 

[bobbysamd]

P-F-T

The way a person gets there credentials shouldn't be held against them. If they can show professionalism and show that they can fly, then that should be enough . . . . If they want to pay let em pay . . . .

. . . which is the issue. Having a fat checkbook is their sole qualifier for these "jobs." Never mind the alleged qualifications set forth by the P-F-T airlines (Gulfstream only "requires" a Commercial-Instrument-Multi). Gulfstream operates under Part 121, which means that its FOs are required crew members. Most are P-F-Ters who paid Gulfstream for a job and have taken away work from legitimately-qualified pilots because they could write a check.

How would you like it if you had applied for a job, didn't get it, and learned that someone else got it because he paid for it. What's not to understand?

 

[SigAV8R]

the way i see it, you have to invest in your future. i'm going through training in a beech1900 right now for an airline and i only have 360 hours. getting right into the 121 environment is the best way to do it. i know its not cheap but going to law school isn't cheap either. very few places are hiring right now, and i believe in a few years when i have some left seat time i will have a good shot at jet blue.

i feel the need... the need for speed!!!

AND THE GUAT LIVES...along w/ Tab F/O! Welcome back!

 

[SigAV8R]

Re: P-F-T

. . . which is the issue. Having a fat checkpoint is their sole qualifier for these "jobs." Never mind the alleged qualfications set forth by the P-F-T airlines ( Gulfstream only "requires" a Commercial-Instrument-Multi). Gulfstream operates under Part 121, which means that its FOs are required crew members. Most are P-F-Ters who paid Gulfstream for a job and have taken away work from legitimately-qualified pilots because they could write a check.

How would you like it if you had applied for a job, didn't get it, and learned that someone else got it because he paid for it. What's not to understand?

No point in explaining b/c some people just will NEVER UNDERSTAND why P-F-T is bad. They're the same ones who vote in sh!tty contracts come contract time.

 

[blablabla]

I have MIXED feelings on PFT, but

sigav8r wrote this.

"No point in explaining b/c some people just will NEVER UNDERSTAND why P-F-T is bad. They're the same ones who vote in sh!tty contracts come contract time."

Give me a break!!!
How in the hell do you know what they vote????

Because someone PFT'd, they are NOT going to want to get paid well with lots of days off when they are at a REAL airline, that has got to be one of the most idiotic things I have heard.

Everybody wants to get paid well, I'm sure that includes SCABS too. Though they are a different category all together.

 

[TopGun-MAV]

everyone comes from different backgrounds. a 500 hr pilot will be happy to sit in the right seat of a jet for 20k, would a 3000hr pilot do that? i don't think so. I for one and i know others would be happy to pay for an opportunity like that. i really don't know if its right but its an opportunity that knocks.

GO THE MAV!!

 

[scoot]

Bobbysalittlebitta,

Doesn't getting comm, multi, inst, qualify someone, somehow? Wow man, lighten up. Please! Some of you spend all day just looking for people to pounce. Live and let live for Pete's sake!

PFT'ers that paid Gulfstream for a job also got real 121 training, and are getting real jobs, with real airlines, with their real qualifications, as we write.

Please talk about something more constructive.

 

[bobbysamd]

Bitterness?

Not me, by any stretch of the imagination. An oldie but a goodie, 1964 solid gold rock 'n roll, as we celebrate The Beatles' fortieth aniversary in the U.S:

Can't buy me love, love
Can't buy me love

I'll buy you a diamond ring my friend
If it makes you feel all right
I'll get you anything my friend
If it makes you feel all right
'Cause I don't care too much for money
For money can't buy me love . . .

(emphasis added)

Somehow, I think John, Paul, George and Ringo had P-F-T in mind when they cut this classic hit. Money certainly can buy you a P-F-T airline job, or anything you want, for that matter. It takes a lot more to earn what you want. Those who have earned their seats I respect. I do not have much respect for those who buy them. But, that's just me. So, no, I'm not bitter.

P-F-T may not have been around quite as long as the Beatles, but it was around when I was looking for commuter jobs. My choices boiled down to P-F-T or not be a commuter pilot. No job is worth buying. Perhaps the most important reason is the impression it gives your P-F-T employer. When he sees you will stoop low enough to buy a job, he can just imagine the other BOHICA with which he can get away with you.

PFT'ers that paid Gulfstream for a job also got real 121 training, and are getting real jobs, with real airlines, with their real qualifications, as we write.

With whom, besides Pinnacle? And, what is the percentage of those who are hired compared to those who complete their 250 hours. I would submit, very few. Thereafter, how hard does Gulfstream help them get placed with an airline? I would submit, not very.

Define "constructive." For those who are dazzled by TAB's and Gulfstream's "one year or less to the airlines" type ads, this is a very constructive discussion. Perhaps they'll think a little instead of being snowed by P-F-T's "promises."

Anyway, back to the music:

" . . . . I don't care too much for money, for money can buy me P-F-T . . . ."

 

[bobbysamd]

Flamebait, again

everyone comes from different backgrounds. a 500 hr pilot will be happy to sit in the right seat of a jet for 20k, would a 3000hr pilot do that?

I would have, even at 4565 hours, if it were a real job and I knew it would lead to something better, which it would have.

I think you need to learn more about the business, Mr. F-14, before you espouse such thoughts.

 

[center]

I know we (Cathay Pacific) have hired pilots from Gulfstream Airlines; I have flown with one of them. A nice fellow, and a sharp pilot. I believe he was Irish or something of the like.

 

[SigAV8R]

Give me a break!!!
How in the hell do you know what they vote????

Because someone PFT'd, they are NOT going to want to get paid well with lots of days off when they are at a REAL airline, that has got to be one of the most idiotic things I have heard.

Everybody wants to get paid well, I'm sure that includes SCABS too. Though they are a different category all together.

Yeah, you're right...I don't know how anyone voted. I wasn't saying that pilots don't want to get paid well. But because you paid for your job, it proves you're willing to do anything to get/keep your job. This would include things such as accepting less $$$ and worse working conditions on the basis that you didn't make the effort to get where you're at. You didn't spend the hours teaching, flying freight, ferrying airplanes, flying the in the bush...or whatever. Granted, everyone is looking to move on to a major, but P-F-T is setting a precedent that it's okay for mgmt to pay less or to have sh!tty work conditions b/c someone's willing to accept it. After all, they PAID US to get their jobs. All of us would love to get to our dream job sooner than later, but we also have to remember to leave the company/industry in a better condition for the people that follow. SCABS are just another example of pilot backstabbing their brothers and sisters.

Anyone who has ever CFI'ed for $8 an hour or flown for free or bought a type rating to get a job or spent time at a commuter/sweatshop for $16K a year is no better in my book than someone who PFTed. The dirty secret is we've all whored ourselves out at one time or another to get ahead, anyone who has ever taken a job for below industry standard wages to get experience was in effect "buying the seat". You're just paying for training/experience via your paycheck instead of paying for it up front, and we call that sort of PFT "paying your dues".

Yes, we all make concessions, but we're not paying students for the priviledge of instructing them. So what exactly is "industry standard wages"? Commuters where you get $15K/yr aren't asking you to pay for your training (some of them)...they're just paying you what you're willing to accept. That's whoreing. Low pay is one thing, but buying your job is another thing.


From one pilot whore to another.

 

[scoot]

Bobby,

You are right about some kids who want to "buy" the job without any thought for others or the impact of just having daddy write a check for it. They miss the perspective gained by "earning it", and of the respect for the profession and the toughness needed to be a good pilot. That is their loss, but the FAA standards pretty much keep the unqualified out. Everyone must pass the same tests.

I've got to get away from this disscussion 'cause it's cutting into my study time, besides, we're all entitled to our opinions. I just think we should look to do things THAT WILL HELP THE FELLOW PILOT GROUP INSTEAD OF DIVIDING IT!

Gulfstream folks are getting hired all over the place. One of the CP's from Comair told me they LOVE GIA pilots because they come in well trained and 121 experienced. Just in my class at ExpressJet there are 3 GIA folks. I know 16 GIA FO's have been hired recently full time there.
This is a fun but endless discussion.....

 

[blablabla]

Hey SigAV8R,

I did not PFT, or buy a job, I am a flight instructor getting paid, albeit poorly. I did not vote on that, and I did not PFT. Looks like even non-PFTers agree to low wages at just about every single flight instructor job I know.

 

[SigAV8R]

Hey SigAV8R,

I did not PFT, or buy a job, I am a flight instructor getting paid, albeit poorly. I did not vote on that, and I did not PFT. Looks like even non-PFTers agree to low wages at just about every single flight instructor job I know.

I meant P-F-Ters, not you personally. Besides, you said you had mixed feelings about it so I figured you were not a P-F-Ter.

SigAV8R

 

[bobbysamd]

Gulfstream P-F-T v. Comair non-P-F-T

For the record, Delta Connection Academy fka Comair Aviation Academy is not P-F-T. It is a flight school, laden with great promises and expectations. But, it is not P-F-T, which is why the following comment is especially rich:

Gulfstream folks are getting hired all over the place. One of the CP's from Comair told me they LOVE GIA pilots because they come in well trained and 121 experienced. Just in my class at ExpressJet there are 3 GIA folks. I know 16 GIA FO's have been hired recently full time there . . .

In other words, Comair hires Gulfstream P-F-Ters ahead, perhaps, of its own graduates?

That is hilarious!