The Evil of PFT......

[scoot]

I meant 16 Gulfstream PFT'ers hired by Gulfstream.
Anyway... bye, bye, I gotta fly. Good Luck to everybody!

 

[bobbysamd]

Okay . . .

I meant 16 Gulfstream PFT'ers hired by Gulfstream.

Out of how many who laid down their $23,940? I submit again, the percentage of those who are hired against the total number who pay is small indeed.

 

[duksrule]

Re: P-F-T

. . . which is the issue. Having a fat checkbook is their sole qualifier for these "jobs." Never mind the alleged qualifications set forth by the P-F-T airlines ( Gulfstream only "requires" a Commercial-Instrument-Multi). Gulfstream operates under Part 121, which means that its FOs are required crew members. Most are P-F-Ters who paid Gulfstream for a job and have taken away work from legitimately-qualified pilots because they could write a check.

How would you like it if you had applied for a job, didn't get it, and learned that someone else got it because he paid for it. What's not to understand?

Sorry but a less qualified person who pays for the job (PFT) is no different than someone with a connection on the inside and gets hired ahead of more qualified people because they have a magic LOR.

 

[Timebuilder]

From back on the first page of this thread, this was observed by a poster:

It's just the same old crap, over and over again.

Now, why is this true?

Answer: because there is always some kid who was not learning anything about aviation policies just a couple of years ago, who now seeks information about how to craft his career.

Ergo, we discusss this phenomena and its impact on the profession of aviation yet again.

 

[Timebuilder]

Sorry but a less qualified person who pays for the job (PFT) is no different than someone with a connection on the inside and gets hired ahead of more qualified people because they have a magic LOR.

I think that's false.

Someone who pays for a job affects the professional status of ALL pilots, particularly those at the PFT carrier.

An "inside connection" is how almost ALL corporate jobs are filled, and a large number of others in the 121 world. You don't get recommended unless you can cut the mustard, since no one will make themselves look bad by recommending a "less qualified" person. That means that someone is not hired on an LOR ahead of a "more qualified person." The hiree simply has the additional qualification of having an advocate.

 

[duksrule]

I think that's false.

Someone who pays for a job affects the professional status of ALL pilots, particularly those at the PFT carrier.

An "inside connection" is how almost ALL corporate jobs are filled, and a large number of others in the 121 world. You don't get recommended unless you can cut the mustard, since no one will make themselves look bad by recommending a "less qualified" person. That means that someone is not hired on an LOR ahead of a "more qualified person." The hiree simply has the additional qualification of having an advocate.

True that someone isn't going to risk their credibility by giving a LOR to someone with poor skills. On the other hand though I am guessing that even though they are PFT that a lot of those guys are just as good of a pilot.

 

[Timebuilder]

On the other hand though I am guessing that even though they are PFT that a lot of those guys are just as good of a pilot.

I can see that as a valid observation. Being a PFT pilot does not mean that said pilot might not also be a talented or a proficient pilot.

That aside, there is still the damage that PFT does to the professional standing of ALL pilots as being easily manipulated into paying for something that should be a paid position according to respected standards of the industry.

 

[bobbysamd]

Proficiency and skills as a non-starter

Being a PFT pilot does not mean that said pilot might not also be a talented or a proficient pilot.

Even I have never said that. I have never argued against P-F-T from the safety standpoint. At least for discussion's sake, I've always assumed that a P-F-T pilot is not turned loose unless he/she has passed the requisite proficiency check.

I make that assumption because the P-F-T airline's insurance company won't carry any more risk than it already might. That said, I still submit that P-F-T airlines will try harder to push through the less-capable strictly in order to earn more P-F-T training revenue from the person's deposit.

[T]here is still the damage that PFT does to the professional standing of ALL pilots as being easily manipulated into paying for something that should be a paid position according to respected standards of the industry.

Absolutely, Mr. Time.

 

[deadstick]

Has anybody ever seen GIA post openings for CA's? And what % of the folks DON'T get the boot after the 250 hrs?

 

[bobbysamd]

Gulfstream post P-F-T hiring

Has anybody ever seen GIA post openings for CA's? And what % of the folks DON'T get the boot after the 250 hrs?

Probably the single digits or less - unless they want to write another check!

And, how many of the ones who are booted immediately get hired by airlines? I would submit, significantly few. Probably most end up getting their CFIs and instruct. So much for trying to bypass the CFI route via P-F-T.

 

[The_Russian]

think about it.....

Whould it be any different if I laid down $23,940 at Ari-Ben to build worthless Dutchess time?

NO

We all refer to GIA as PFT but it is not. PFT is when you buy a PERMANENT JOB with a commercial carrier. Nobody at GIA buys a job because it is a TRAINING PROGRAM to build 250 hrs. After completion of the 250 hrs they are not guaranteed a job at ANY airline. However, the GIA pilots are very, very, very, marketable. Most of my students from there are flying a jet now.

And no pilot at GIA is "turned out" unless they pass an airline checkride. A real checkride. I know, I'm there, I see it everyday. I dont get my info from FAQ's or opinions on GIA.

 

[The_Russian]

Geeeeezzzzz

Just went back and read the last 2 pages of replys!

I think all of you have gone straight up nuts.....YIKES!!!

Airline Training or CFI??

Make your choice. I did both.

 

[scoot]

My Dear Commie Friend,

Thank you. You put it well. Since I got to Gulfstream, 12/02, I know that well over 50% of the students who completed their 250 hours of B-1900 time have gotten hired with different airlines. I sound like a recruiter, but it was the key for me to get that important 121 turbine experience, and a job. I came in, like many others, already experienced. Instructor, all night bank checks, small package freight, commuter, and charter type work for four years. I don't think I stole anyone's job do you? There were a lot of good hard working pilots at Gulfstream that I would stack against any in the field.

I have to quit getting on this board 'cause it just spins around in my head, and for what, or for who? People that talk about things that they haven't experienced, and take it as fact?

Gulfstream isn't perfect, but I wouldn't want to have to run an airline that has to replace the FOs every 250 hours. Tom Cooper is doing a great service to the industry.

If you do the math, you get 250 hrs. of B-1900D time for about $76 an hour. Money well spent if you are commited to an airline career. Also, to me, people who are willing to invest $25,000 in their training show more commitment than those who aren't.

Y'all let usin's be!

 

[bobbysamd]

Job or not?

We all refer to GIA as PFT but it is not. PFT is when you buy a PERMANENT JOB with a commercial carrier.

Is Gulfstream not a commercial carrier? They represent themselves as a Part 121 operation and a Continental Connection airline. That sounds very "commercial" to me.

Are payroll taxes deducted from your paychecks? Are Social Security taxes withheld from your paychecks? Does a W-2 issue for your wages? If the answer to any of the above is "yes," then Gulfstream is a job, for which you paid, and is therefore P-F-T. Under ordinary circumstances, there would a hiring process and pilots would be hired, and paid, to fill those FO seats. It makes no difference if it is temporary.

 

[The_Russian]

Bobby, you may be able to spell, but you cant read man.

 

[bobbysamd]

Gulfstream "employment"

Bobby, you may be able to spell, but you cant read man.

That is spelled "can't."

Where's your response to my post above? I see, you don't have a response . . . . .

 

[Hugh Jorgan]

Re: Re: P-F-T

Sorry but a less qualified person who pays for the job (PFT) is no different than someone with a connection on the inside and gets hired ahead of more qualified people because they have a magic LOR.

What a load of $hit.

 

[duksrule]

Using Bobby's analogy about PFT. Would you not be angry if someone cut in line in front of you at the bank after you have waited in line? That is what PFTers are doing.( or something like this is what he said )

Well would you not be just as angry if the teller came out from behind the counter and waited on the last guy in line because a friend of hers told her he was a great guy?


I don't personally care how anyone gets to where they are going. Sometimes the ends do justify the means. However if you hate PFTers because you feel they are cutting in line in front of you, then you need to hate the people who have their resume walked in because they are in fact cutting the line too. PFT or not everyone passes the same tests and has the same license. That is not to say that every PFTer is a great pilot but I am sure that if you look you can find some 2000 hour CFIs that aren't that great of a pilot either.

Funny that there are a handful of people on this board who think PFT is just the most evil thing on earth. Could it be that someone ponyed up the cash and passed these individuals somewhere in life?

 

[ILStoMinimums]

Why don't all the individuals who decide to PFT make a different choice and go to Comair Acadamy, which is not PFT. They would pay the 20K+ (I'm guessing) and then have a possible slot in the RJ once they meet the mins?

 

[The_Russian]

Originally posted by Duksrule

I don't personally care how anyone gets to where they are going. Sometimes the ends do justify the means. However if you hate PFTers because you feel they are cutting in line in front of you, then you need to hate the people who have their resume walked in because they are in fact cutting the line too. PFT or not everyone passes the same tests and has the same license. That is not to say that every PFTer is a great pilot but I am sure that if you look you can find some 2000 hour CFIs that aren't that great of a pilot either.

I agree. Especially that last line. I have met pilots with thousands of hours that could not fly near as good as 500 hour pilots I know.