The Evil of PFT......

[100LL... Again!]

PCL128-

You are not really qualified to say whether flight instructing can prepare you for the 121 world, are you?

At best, it is a supposition, and an inaccurate one.

The sad part is that you do not kn0ow how much you do not know.


And no, instructing is not 'required', by any means. The fellow who did the ferry flying, float flying, etc, gained REAL experince in the REAL world. As PIC-PIC-PIC of an aircraft.

Making descisions. Not being 'trained'.

PCL128: You may be a passable stick, but your experience is very limited. You have spent most of your airborne hours as the trainee. (Being a frasca/whatever simulator instructor does not count as being PIC).

I learned most of what I needed to know for 121 doing what: bein' a CFI. Amazing, huh? But you wouldn't know that.

 

[AftCG182]

I guess that I'm living in the sheltered world of a jump pilot. (I thank my lucky stars every time that I'm trusted with the lives of those strut-monkeys). The life of all low-time/low-pay pilots is based on the same core truth... we're flying because we love it. I read the various threads here and assume (uh-oh!) that most of what's posted is for the sake of discussion. I'm pretty sure that some day when I show up early to preflight my 1900 I really won't care how the guy that's flying in the seat across from me earned his time to get there. I've gotten this far, don't let me get disillusioned now

 

[PCL_128]

PCL128-

You are not really qualified to say whether flight instructing can prepare you for the 121 world, are you?

At best, it is a supposition, and an inaccurate one.

Actually, I believe I am qualified to say whether it prepares me or not. I have about 200 hours of dual given in Cessnas teaching private and commercial students. That certainly isn't a lot, but I think that is enough to get an idea of whether it helps.

 

[Mike man]

PCL_128-

Wow!

200 whole, entire hours teaching in a Cessna...you have it all! That’s not even enough time to know what the hell you are doing as a new CFI...I really don't see how 200 hours could possibly qualify you even make a guess as to how being a CFI could help you become a 121 pilot.

But like I said you have it all!

An excellent reputation as someone who cuts corners and a bunch of "real" world experience!

I really look up to you!

-M.O.


***** ***** ***** *****

blade230-

If I were a betting man, I would bet that many (dare I say about 50% or so) of the people getting hired by Regional Airlines now are CFI's with, oh I'd say about 2000 hours of CFI experience, and that is their primary job. I'm sure quite a few might fly charter, and stuff like that but most are CFI's. So for the jobs that we want you almost do need a CFI, in fact some airlines/cargo companies require a CFI.

-M.O.

 

[pilotyip]

PFT out there

If you fly for AirTran,. NetJets, ACA, there is good chance your Capt is a PFTer, because up until the late 90's those were PFT airlines 10K for a ACA BE-41 F/O job, 10K for a Netjet CE-500 F/O and 10K for a Value Jet DC-9 type. In the mid 90's PFT was very common. I was set up to interview at two PFT companies in 1996, ACA who wanted 10K for a J-41 F/O seat (no type rating), a job I should have taken because I would have made capt. in about 4-6 months, but they told me Capt would be 2-3 years. I could not live on J-41 F/O pay that long. All the guys who were hired that year are now senior RJ Capt's at ACA, if they did not go someplace else. The other company flew their DC-9 into the swamp in Fla 5 days before my interview. I elected not to go to the interview, since they had quit flying and did not answer the phone. But Value Jet charged 10K for a FSI DC-9 type. All the guys who hired before me are senior AirTran Capt's if they stayed there. Neither of these PFT jobs from the past would be considered bad jobs by 90% of the people reading this board. The bottom line PFT may give you opportunities that lead to a good job, it is up to the individual to see if PFT is right for them or not. If a person PFT's it doesn't mark them as a non-professional pilot any more than not having a college degree marks one as a non-professional pilot. If the DA-20 pays 25K per year and the PFT is only 5K for recurrent are you better taking that job, or taking a non PFT for 18K per year, the math is simple. If I was unemployed, I would look into it in a heartbeat.

 

[deadstick]

Do you still need a 737 type to get hired at Southwest? Isn't that PFT?

 

[kevdog]

Do you still need a 737 type to get hired at Southwest? Isn't that PFT?

Not if you are already typed in the 737 from a previous employer, but I say it is if you pay for it yourself to get the job.

 

[PCL_128]

PCL_128-

Wow!

200 whole, entire hours teaching in a Cessna...you have it all! That’s not even enough time to know what the hell you are doing as a new CFI...I really don't see how 200 hours could possibly qualify you even make a guess as to how being a CFI could help you become a 121 pilot.

But like I said you have it all!

I think that the 200 hours flight instruction along with about 2000 hours spent sim instructing gave me a good enough idea of whether instructing was a better way to learn about the 121 environment. Of course, that's just my opinion. Everyone needs to find their own way.

An excellent reputation as someone who cuts corners

Actually, for everyone that knows me in the real world (meaning away from this board), that is exactly the opposite of my reputation.

 

[scoot]

There are so few entry level jobs availible. Why would anyone fault someone for paying to train for an airline job? Do we think truck driving schools are evil?
The low pay for low time pilots is historic. The airlines that pay low are to blame for low pay. A quality company will have respect for it's employees and pay a living wage, not take advantage of them. LET'S GET THIS STRAIGHT..WE NEED TO QUIT BICKERING ABOUT PFT BEING THE FOCUS OF EVIL IN THE WORLD!!!!!!!!!! What would be the value in working together to improve things?

 

[Mike man]

Uhhh...I don't think many trucking companies will train you to be a truck driver. However in most states you only need to pass a written test and a driving test to get a commercial drivers license and it does not cost very much.

Now a person paying serious money to drive a truck to maybe have a shot of working for a crappy company...that’s fu*ked up.

Just like TAB and Gulfstream and so on and so forth.

I didn't pay for my job, and I was recently hired by an airline.

None of my friends from college paid to get jobs at Honda, EDS, Fortis, etc. They all started at entry-level jobs. Don't you think people in the business world would get mad if someone just bought a job?

I think we should get mad when people just buy jobs!

Go earn a job and then have someone cut corners and buy a job...then come back and tell us how you feel.

Oh, and thanks for letting all of us know that you are a PFT person.

 

[Meatwhistle]

I agree with Big Dong Hanky, this pft is for the birds. The whole airline industry in general is f'd up. Pilots bust regs, goodbye certificates, job, and life. Company, ie management busts regs, hello possible fine and continue normal ops. Thats fair.

 

[Long Time Gone]

As someone who was burned by the thieves at Airline Training Academy, I feel qualified to offer a word of caution regarding PFT programs (or bridge programs)......... Just make sure that you're not dealing with an ex-Airline Training Academy salesman (recruiter) and be sure to have a "plan B" ready....just in case.

Such as the individuals at TAB.....

The students (oh, I'm sorry; they're called "FO's in training"), don't realize that 3 of the recruiters also worked at ATAcademy, and reeled many believing and nieve (sp?) fish into the bucket. They could care less if you get hired or not; as long as you enroll, they did their job.

There are too many people on the street caused by the ATAcademy fiasco. I instructed there for a long time, and observed all of it.

May they all burn in h*ll.

 

[rchcfi]

As for GIA, I'll give you a real world example. First off, I was a CFI for them (mistake!) and saw many things that just disgusted me, which led me to quit!

1. We had this recruiter who would woo the fresh faced 18-20 year olds. They would bring their mummy and pops down to take a look at the school. The kicker was that the recruiter would do everything in his power to not let fresh face boy and the current students interact. He would sneak the potential in and out of back doors, etc. That was because he KNEW the current students would do everything in their power to keep this unsuspecting young sap from wasting his (parents) money on a load of crap spoon fed to him.

2. I didn't work there for long (Thank God) and only had 7 students. None of which, yes that's right, none of which are currently employed as the "promised F/O".

3. A great example is a former student of mine, who became a great friend, is currently unemployed trying to figure out how to pay off the loans. She went through the entire "program" from PPSEL to F/O on the 1900 and spent $55,000. She is now sitting at 500 hours and no one will touch her with a 10-foot pole. She wanted to fly banners, but OOOPS, GIA didn't give you your Comm ASEL with that course.

And as for that "guaranteed" interview with the partner airlines. LOAD OF CRAP!!!! Yeah, you might be guaranteed an interview, but it might be in 3 years and they might accept you into a pool or possibly pass you up for someone with more experience. ie, the CFI who has 1,000 TT.

And if you think GIA will actually hire you once you are finished with your 250, think again. If they hire you, that means they can't offer that seat to someone who is willing to pay for it!

Thoroughly disgusted with those P-R-I-C-K-S!!!!!!!!!!! or any PFT for that matter.

P.S. - And if you think they keep their promises, you're lost in space. GIA promised me they would get me my CFII, but flaked on that as well. And I only made a whopping $650/month to CFI there...CRAP

 

[46Driver]

Re: PFT out there

The bottom line PFT may give you opportunities that lead to a good job, it is up to the individual to see if PFT is right for them or not. If a person PFT's it doesn't mark them as a non-professional pilot any more than not having a college degree marks one as a non-professional pilot. If the DA-20 pays 25K per year and the PFT is only 5K for recurrent are you better taking that job, or taking a non PFT for 18K per year, the math is simple. If I was unemployed, I would look into it in a heartbeat.

Actually what is funny is that I believe you can use the Montgomery GI Bill to fund the PFT for up to 60% of the total cost. If you think the anti-PFT'ers are upset before, they will go ballistic when they find out their tax dollars are going to support a military PFT'er.....

 

[rchcfi]

This just keeps getting better. No sooner did I finish posting the above about GIA, my friend called to let me know what's going on. WIERD!

Evidently there are going to be some interviews from Airlink soon. So GIA rounded up 60 of their former unemployed PFTers. Here's the catch:

You CANNOT interview unless you sit through GIA's "pre-interview" refresher course at $300 a pop. So there's another $18,000 in the bank for GIA. And I'm sure if given the option, most wouldn't fork over more money. But what other option do they have at 500 hours.

F*cking THIEVES!

 

[scoot]

OK turd-man... Meet me after school 3 o'clock.
BTW..

900hrs. flight instructor
1 year bank checks all night
1 year commuter in Navajos
Four years working for $hit pay and not blameing PFT'ers 'cause I'm not an unhappy person.

I did PFT at GA recently to get recurrent so you're not as dumb as your avatar. Got what I needed with a $200 mo. student loan. Very good 121 training and flying the line experience. It should help me get a good job.

I chose not to go to the required interview prep for Airlink 'cause that's over the line. I spent enough already. So i'm interviewing elsewhere.

 

[bobbysamd]

Tax deduction

Actually what is funny is that I believe you can use the Montgomery GI Bill to fund the PFT for up to 60% of the total cost. If you think the anti-PFT'ers are upset before, they will go ballistic when they find out their tax dollars are going to support a military PFT'er.....

What's funnier still is you might be able to deduct P-F-T if you already have your ratings and are employed!

One certainly should consult with his/her tax professional first.

 

[deadstick]

What's funnier still is you might be able to deduct P-F-T if you already have your ratings and are employed!

First of all VA-RULES!! Second, ever hear of WIA? If not, check it out. More tax $'s at work for unemployed pilots. Don't knock it because you may need it some day. Third, if you have a CFI, aren't you always employed as an independent flight instructor?

 

[TWA Dude]

I hate PFT but I decline to denigrate my fellow pilots for their career choices. All the pilot-bashing crap that goes on here disgusts me.

- I don't prejudge the pilots I fly with.
- I don't blame other pilots for actions of their employers.
- I don't take out my frustrations by attacking others on message boards.

...and I know I'm not the only one.

Dude

 

[SWAnnabee]

Continental Express

Continental Express will NOT pay you a dime during newhire training. Would anyone consider this to be PFT?

 

[bobbysamd]

Continental Express

Continental Express will NOT pay you a dime during newhire training. Would anyone consider this to be PFT?

No. You were not required to remit money to COEX as a condition of being hired. Granted, the place could be a little more generous to new-hires.

 

[TWA Dude]

Re: Continental Express

Continental Express will NOT pay you a dime during newhire training. Would anyone consider this to be PFT?

The key word is "consider". When you get down to it just abou anyone can "consider" any flying job as PFT. Sometimes it's a matter of perspective and opinion. I always chuckle when someone busts out with a "Southwest is PFT" rant becuase they're just about the most coveted employer out there. Of course it's not fair that pilots with money have more opportunities to advance their careers. Being poor is always a disadvantage but that's capitalism.

As someone above posted, many of the students in the PFT and "Buy some turbine time" outfits are offspring of airline pilots. Obviously they just want they're kids to have it easier than they did. It's a myth that the major airline hiring people care about where applicants got their training. (Before someone jumps on me I'll concede that somewhere in the course of history somebody actually did care about PFT but I've never personally heard of it.) Back in the '90s a couple thousand pilots were hired at regional airlines through the FlightSafety/Comair PFT programs. Thankfully at least those days are gone but never forget that at the airlines it's always about profit and not about hiring the most qualified pilots.

Dude

 

[scoot]

bozt45
You are wrong.
Where did you get that info? Please don't state rumors as fact. They pay for your motel and enough to live on during your training!

 

[deadstick]

Have to spread the word and stir the pot

Free flight training at TabEx. Hmmmmm

 

[bobbysamd]

Don't hold your breath . . . . .

I looked at that page. Yeah, I'll bet that P-F-T outfit will rebate your P-F-T tuition, after you sue for it.

How do you spell fraud? Bad faith? Breach of contract?

In the interests of consumerism, here's a link to the consumer fraud webpage for the Florida Attorney-General.

Are you going to get a rebate, TabExpress F/O?

 

[AftCG182]

And keep in mind when thinking about your answer... you're dealing with ex-Airline Training Academy scumbags.

 

[pilotyip]

For TWA Dude

You are right! it is always about profits, without those your airline goes out business, or is absorbed into someone's else's airline. Profitable airlines, pay higher wages than airlines in bankruptcy, seat movement is always faster at profitable airlines. Nothing wrong with pursuing profits. Like I said before PFT was very common 8 years ago.

 

[B190Captain]

Re: Continental Express

No. You were not required to remit money to COEX as a condition of being hired. Granted, the place could be a little more generous to new-hires.

If you are hired at a company and you require training to become qualified in the equipment they fly, I would assume they would invest in you to survive during that training process.

Well they do realize that most of these applicants have mummy and daddy pay their bills during the time they are not being paid sh!t.

That my friends is a company taking advantage of a new-hire. They don't even have any confidence in who they just spent so much time interviewing and screening.

That is just wrong!!

 

[jetdawg]

This may stir the pot and for all I know it has already been said. I did not want to read all the posts to find out. Did anyone ever consider SWA as a buy your job PFT pilot hoaring or whatever you want to call it.

If you do not already have a 737 type will SWAhire you? Hell yeah but you better get yourself a type before you actually go to work for them. My eyes that is the same thing as hey if you want to work here pay me 10,000 to fly right seat of a Be1900 so you can make 11,000. No one ever thinks it is the same but if you are paying to get a job what else do you call it.

It sucks but do it the hard way. Teach pray teach then get a job buzzing around in the midwest with some boxes in the back then go for comuters then try and hope by then the big boys or in my case the medium boys are hiring and get a job with them

 

[pilotyip]

check other PFT thread

Your PFT definition does not fit the official one put forth by Bobbysans, (Paralegal). You should check it out, so when we refer to PFT we are all talking about same thing. Remember PFT is OK, it is a way to gain experience and build hours.