The Brits show Americans the way. STRIKE!

[flygirlqt]

Rez, Waveflyer's post neatly sums up my response to you and I have a contract law final this afternoon. Your rhetoric does nothing to change the fact that ALPA is losing the backing of numerous pilots. You may feel good about what you are saying but in reality the process and principles you espouse for change within ALPA are a joke. The good old boy system is so entrenched within ALPA politics no one within the membership has the ability to change anything with the status quo. It is all geared around money, dues income and protecting ALPA long before the memberships interest are concerned.

If you feel your dues are going to something worthwhile like the grossly disproportionate pay for union officers, lackluster representation and that stupid glad handing magazine be my guest to enjoy it.

 

[Lear70]

Disclaimer: thread drift...

One of these days I'd like to hear how you're covering your basic bills while you're back in school... (not an attack, just seriously wondering how the heck you replace $3k a month after-taxes while you're trying to go to school, too.) House payment, property taxes, insurance, utilities, gas, food, cell phone, not even counting child support or child care / tuition for Pre-k, etc...

Adds up fast.

 

[waveflyer]

Ex ALPA and IBT, been there done that. I am a union realist, as a former ALPA and Teamster member I have seen what unions can and can not do. They can not make a silk purse out of a pig’s ear, the consumer determines your pay and benefts, management only tries o keep the company in business

So mgmt is always the good hearted protagonist? You're repeating the flaws of Ayn Rand- if every executive was dagny taggart or Hank rearden we wouldn't be having this conversation. The consumer does NOT determine my benefits or contract- I spent too many years at theregionals to know it's not that simple.

 

[flygirlqt]

Disclaimer: thread drift...

One of these days I'd like to hear how you're covering your basic bills while you're back in school... (not an attack, just seriously wondering how the heck you replace $3k a month after-taxes while you're trying to go to school, too.) House payment, property taxes, insurance, utilities, gas, food, cell phone, not even counting child support or child care / tuition for Pre-k, etc...

Adds up fast.

Substantial inheritance. I would never have to work a day in my life but I would rather be a productive member of society than sitting around on my tush hanging out at the country club.

 

[PCL_128]

Disclaimer: thread drift...

One of these days I'd like to hear how you're covering your basic bills while you're back in school... (not an attack, just seriously wondering how the heck you replace $3k a month after-taxes while you're trying to go to school, too.) House payment, property taxes, insurance, utilities, gas, food, cell phone, not even counting child support or child care / tuition for Pre-k, etc...

Adds up fast.

Apparently not the case with her, but there are law schools that have part-time programs. There are four colleges in the Atlanta area that offer 4- and 5-year law programs going to school part-time. If you can manage to work a flying schedule that allows it, then you can make it work without losing the income while attending school.

 

[Lear70]

Apparently not the case with her, but there are law schools that have part-time programs. There are four colleges in the Atlanta area that offer 4- and 5-year law programs going to school part-time. If you can manage to work a flying schedule that allows it, then you can make it work without losing the income while attending school.

I was actually thinking of my *ahem* CURRENT situation,,,

Planning the best for Feb, but the prepared person always evaluates their options BEFORE they get backed into the corner, and a 15/6 schedule is brutal on the family life. Even if things DO go our way in Feb (not to mention IF Kalitta retains my job after exceeding my FMLA timeline for my shoulder), AirTran will likely push it another YEAR before doing anything after they lose the Arbitration...

Hence the thought process prompting the initial question to FlyG. You know how I like to dissect a contract... Not that I would prefer that over a flying career (I haven't come THIS far to give up on it now), but a lucrative position as a Contracts or Trademark / Copyright attorney and home every night with my son beats the heck out of 15/6 for years to come. (Plus, it'd be fun to someday show up across from Kolski at the table in a completely different capacity... admit it, you just laughed at the thought of it).

p.s. Yes, there are a couple of part-time J.D. programs here in BNA, Vandy included, but you're talking 4-6 years part-time, and that's assuming I get accepted.

Substantial inheritance. I would never have to work a day in my life but I would rather be a productive member of society than sitting around on my tush hanging out at the country club.

Good for you, although if you already inherited it, my condolences on your loss...

I know what you mean about sitting around. I've been sidelined for 6 months now having surgery and recovering from it, and I'm about to go out of my mind here bored to death... If I knew the ALPA FPL was going to continue no matter what and ALPA would allow it, or I found an alternate way to fund my basic income while full-time in school, I'd have already applied for full time Vandy's Spring semester and tried to get my scholarship back they offered me years ago.

Best of luck to you out there.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

You are not making sense.......

Rez, Waveflyer's post neatly sums up my response to you and I have a contract law final this afternoon.

Suddenly you are too busy?

Your rhetoric does nothing to change the fact that ALPA is losing the backing of numerous pilots. You may feel good about what you are saying but in reality the process and principles you espouse for change within ALPA are a joke.

No, the fact of the matter is, you really want to be served, but you are not willing to do too much yourself. Classic union hater syndrome.

You have problems but you have no solutions. And you want other people to change to meet your satisfaction.

#1 rule when complaining.... offer a solution. I've even suggested ways for you to get involved....

Again.. with compensation that you despise... the BOD, hundreds of fellow pilots, don't agree with you. So now what? Isn't your issue really with them? Have you tried to understand why they don't agree with you?

The good old boy system is so entrenched within ALPA politics no one within the membership has the ability to change anything with the status quo.

The good ol boy system? Maybe, but how does that relate to your statements of how ALPA used to be a good organization but now it is bad? It seems to me that good ol boy is a term of the past. UAL has a female MEC chair now. Is this the good ol boy?

Provide an example of entrenched ALPA politics.

It is all geared around money, dues income and protecting ALPA long before the memberships interest are concerned.

Not really, it is easy to think that way, but it is really about democracy. When you've got 60,000 pilots who all want different things, plus rules, policy, labor law, etc, governing how things are done.... things don't get done that easy... then again... do you want change to happen too quickly? At ALPA or the US govt?

If you feel your dues are going to something worthwhile like the grossly disproportionate pay for union officers, lackluster representation and that stupid glad handing magazine be my guest to enjoy it.

What is your real issue? It seems your airline pilot pay, benefits, QOL and retirement are quit satisfactory, because you don't complain of it.... does your dissatisfaction with ALPA make the spoils of your excellent compensation and time off undesirable....?

What is the bottom line here? I am willing to guess that this career is not what you expected and you are disappointed. And now you are switching gears to law.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

We've gone back and forth on this Rez - there are TOO many non-flying career politician alpa reps.

First off, that is what they are... politicians. That is what ALPA is... a political organization....

Who are the career politicans? Prater? First term. Helsing? First Term. Couette? First term.

There are systems and organizational behavior techniques that could be employed to involve the membership more. You may believe that alpa is the answer- I believe unity is important on the global stage- but it will be in another form if alpa doesn't address some of the corruption/ back-door deal issues.

ALPA or whoever it is, is the deal broker after management/govt agrees to deal. It is grassroots member force that gets the job done, not ALPA. Pilots are inherit leaders in the cockpit, but for some reason they fall apart when it comes to thier careers.

Pilots need to quit looking to ALPA for all the answers and look within...

You can say that we aren't correct as much as you want- but the perception is the reality-and you're losing that battle- leaders take responsibility- they don't blame their membership- there are things that alpa could be doing that would be much more effective than the standard answer from alpa. Any OB textbook would be a good read

Give me three OB ideas applicable to unionism.


Look ALPA has problems and can do better, but being obstructionist and haters is not going to solve any problems. In fact it is very detrimental. Coming up with ideas and working with others will..... that is democracy. If someone things they have a great idea, but no one else does.... that is democracy.....

 

[FrustratedCFI]

Absolutely true that every other contry has an easier time flying here than we do flying anywhere else. The ATP is a quick 3 or 4 day test including training but the JAA is FOREVER and with no reciprocity. If I had my way there would be NO foreigh pilots in the us unless there was 1 for 1 in their country/company

 

[flygirlqt]

Good for you, although if you already inherited it, my condolences on your loss...

I know what you mean about sitting around. I've been sidelined for 6 months now having surgery and recovering from it, and I'm about to go out of my mind here bored to death... If I knew the ALPA FPL was going to continue no matter what and ALPA would allow it, or I found an alternate way to fund my basic income while full-time in school, I'd have already applied for full time Vandy's Spring semester and tried to get my scholarship back they offered me years ago.

Best of luck to you out there.

Appreciate the thoughts but it was years ago and I know he is in a better place now.

Sitting around gets old very fast and must be even worse with an injury or medical issue. I believe the mind atrophies faster than the body and is harder to reclaim a real positive outlook when you become bored. But remember it is never to late to start. Best wishes on your recovery.

Thanks for the wishes for luck.... I might have bit off more than I can chew, especially with my choice of schools, but I am determined to finish my JD degree.

Rez..I have had a long day maybe I'll respond later to your tired worn out ALPA puffing diatribe. Right now it is time for a couple of cold Molsons and I am going to kick back watching another semester fade into oblivion.

 

[waveflyer]

.... I would rather be a productive member of society than sitting around on my tush hanging out at the country club.

are you the perfect girl? ;-) If you're remotely sexy- I just fell for you- either way- well said- we were not made to sit on our butts or lose our curiosity- good luck on the jd

Rez -
What are you, handing out homework? I'm SWAPA- a union where most are very happy- at 1% dues- it's you who have to justify or combat the perception of continued outsourcing, secretiveness, inflated salaries and red tape at 3% dues. Not me. Whether you think there is a problem or not- at the very least you have a perception problem. Communication. Transparency. Organization to ease involvement- consider mandatory involvement- communicate. Communicate. Build trust. Build credibility. Honesty. Integrity.

Alpa reps ought to stay current.

If you'll read my posts- when I'm talking to flygirl- I say don't bash - look in the mirror- why would that not apply to you as well-? to ALPA leadership?

Leaders don't blame those they lead? In the end- leadership matters. It's not a 'what came first good leadership or membership involvement?' question. That's not chicken/egg unanswerable- good leadership comes first. And bad leadership can kill involvement.
So can scapegoating the membership. Until ALPA leaders acknowledge and take responsibility for past failures- it won't grow past this awful decade.

Fight that all you want- but it's true. And I say it bc I know SWAPA and all pilots will benefit from a well run alpa- Im not bitter and want alpa to fail- I want them to get their act together and become an organization worth joining.

 

[Lear70]

are you the perfect girl? ;-) If you're remotely sexy- I just fell for you- either way- well said- we were not made to sit on our butts or lose our curiosity- good luck on the jd

Leg humper alert... LMAO (couldn't resist) :beer:

Alpa reps ought to stay current.

Depends on the rep and the situation. Here at AirTran, where we're in the most intense part of negotiations leading up to a strike, I want my STATUS reps to stay current, as they're the ones who are voting on whether to pass a T.A. to membership. I want them to remember every irritation of daily flying, as well as the good parts of our contract, so that they can look at any agreement with a line pilot's point of view.

However, our Pres, VP, and NC? No way. It's not feasible. Having done union work, there's NO way to do this, especially with the grievance load, constant contract reinterpretations, and negotiations all going on at the same time.

YMMV working for SWA, but here that's a non-starter.

Leaders don't blame those they lead? In the end- leadership matters. It's not a 'what came first good leadership or membership involvement?' question. That's not chicken/egg unanswerable- good leadership comes first. And bad leadership can kill involvement.
So can scapegoating the membership. Until ALPA leaders acknowledge and take responsibility for past failures- it won't grow past this awful decade.

I've had this conversation ad nauseum with Rez. While I support and believe in the ALPA structure and always have, there IS a tendency for the UPPER leadership to become disenfranchised from their representative group, especially when you have pilots who, for the most part, refuse to get involved on a PERSONAL level, who won't give up their personal days off to do union work or really ANYTHING above just lip service to union support.

Good leadership undoubtedly came first, but you can't change a pilot's basic nature to not get involved until something personal to them is in jeopardy. You know, just as well as anyone else, that you just want to come to work, fly your trip under the rules in your CBA, get paid, and go home. EVERY pilot is like that, for the most part...

Once the leader is in place and LEADING, it's then up to the pilot group to do what is necessary to support that leader by doing what that leader asks, picketing events, strict contract enforcement, etc. If you don't like him/her, replace them with someone who WILL lead in the direction the majority wants to go, but then do what that leader asks of you.

The leadership comes first, but the followership has to be right on its tail, or nothing will happen, everyone gets frustrated, and inevitably blames the leadership. I suspect it's been this way for going on 2 decades at ALPA...

p.s. Thanks, FlyG for the words of support. My main focus is getting my AirTran job back at arbitration in Feb, and it looks very positive, but a good aviator always leaves their options open. Hope you enjoyed that Molson (I'm a scotch drinker, myself).

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Rez -
What are you, handing out homework?

You said an Occupational Behavior book would help ALPA. I asked you to be specific in what you mean. You can't use a broad brush, then refrain from details. That is too easy.....

So what do you mean...

I'm SWAPA- a union where most are very happy- at 1% dues-

Again, in house local politics are relatively easy.... compared to ALPA; local, national and international.....

In addition, SWAPA enjoys probably the best management out there....

it's you who have to justify or combat the perception of continued outsourcing, secretiveness, inflated salaries and red tape at 3% dues.

One of the problems with ALPA is, the MEC and National level have minimal if at all, pilot membership interaction. National is hated because pilots have no ownership or responsibility. So what is the solution? Hate? Anger? a mob mentality...??

Not me. Whether you think there is a problem or not- at the very least you have a perception problem. Communication. Transparency. Organization to ease involvement- consider mandatory involvement- communicate. Communicate. Build trust. Build credibility. Honesty. Integrity.

Agreed. So I have asked you and your new crush to quantify and be specific. I have yet to get an answer. This doesn't work....

Hater: I hate ALPA?
Other: Why?
H: they're are all crooks.
O: really, how? why? What laws are broken?
H: they just are....
O: I'd like specifics....
H: never mind....
​

Am I missing something?

Alpa reps ought to stay current.

LEC reps do.
MEC can't.
EVPs do.
National Reps Can't.

union reps are politicians. You have this perception that these guys are fat cats when they are working 6 to 7 days a week, 10+ hour days. Politics is where the Air Line Pilot career is defined. Line flying by pilots is defined at the airport. Careers are defined on CapHill. You need a politician that knows line flying.

If you'll read my posts- when I'm talking to flygirl- I say don't bash - look in the mirror- why would that not apply to you as well-? to ALPA leadership?

Because the membership has an expectation problem. The only way improvements are going to be made is thru politics. Yet here you are saying, I want my politicians to be line qualed and current.

Why?

If reps are flying the line then they are not fixing your career for you. How does flying a trip help?

Leaders don't blame those they lead? In the end- leadership matters. It's not a 'what came first good leadership or membership involvement?' question. That's not chicken/egg unanswerable- good leadership comes first. And bad leadership can kill involvement.

Round and round we go, where it stops......

Who elects the leaders? Who vetts them? How do they get into office. Democracy is slow, painful, boring, annoying, time consuming and demanding. As union pilots any one can step up and say, "give me your dues money and I'll manage millions of your wages via our CBA". Anyone.

So who is going to do it? If any given line pilot won't, then why do they expect excellence from anyone else.....

If people don't lead themselves, then weak, incompetent, dishonest and/or even evil people will.

So can scapegoating the membership. Until ALPA leaders acknowledge and take responsibility for past failures- it won't grow past this awful decade.

What responsibility?

9/11?
BK era?
Age 65?

Fight that all you want- but it's true. And I say it bc I know SWAPA and all pilots will benefit from a well run alpa- Im not bitter and want alpa to fail- I want them to get their act together and become an organization worth joining.

You guys constantly get on here and bash ALPA. Fine. I've got my ALPA problems too.....

But what changes? You elect new leaders and get angry they aren't you, doing what you want. Active involvement. The problem is democracy is slow, painful, boring, annoying, time consuming and demanding. Most people don't have the patience for it. That is not a leadership problem, that is a membership problem.

Identify the problem and work the solution. Easy said than done, but at least you can do that. Try that with your company.

Unions are democracies. As American citizens we should have the skillset to function in a small democracy such as unions. Why is it difficult?

What is the deal? Union members act like consumers in a big box store or a restaurant... the customer is always right....100% satisfaction. This isn't the market, this is democracy.

Each person is responsible for being their own advocate. You can't expect one leader or a small group of leaders to represent each constituent wholly. Representation erodes rights. Only each person can represent themselves wholly. If you are not actively representing yourself then you will be disappointed.....

Our democracy allows that, we need to use it....

 

[Pilotbob3]

Here in the land of the free, you go to jail if you strike without permission.

yes and very well! ask the NYC Subway union president what he did and what he got! any union president should be fully prepared to go to jail!

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

yes and very well! ask the NYC Subway union president what he did and what he got! any union president should be fully prepared to go to jail!

Agreed.... and any union member should be fully prepared to go with him!

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Rez..I have had a long day maybe I'll respond later to your tired worn out ALPA puffing diatribe. Right now it is time for a couple of cold Molsons and I am going to kick back watching another semester fade into oblivion.

It is no diatribe... all I am saying is don't expect others to do for you what you aren't willing to do for yourself...... see my previous post.

Take your time.... as a lawyer to be, you should easily be able to put together worthy reply. Respectfully.... and rezfully... :beer:

 

[waveflyer]

Rez- your logic is circular.

Aren't there elected officers whose job it is to lead?

How could I or flygirl or any other pilot be expected to perform their role? They are the leaders- they need to step up and lead- or give back their paychecks. It's lime expecting the FO to not just be a Captain but perform the role of a chief pilot. One role at a time.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Rez- your logic is circular.

No, it is not. Stick with me...

Aren't there elected officers whose job it is to lead?

Who elects the leaders? The membership. (30% actually do, the other ~70% can't be bothered). Soon into the term, only 5% attend meetings. The other 95% can't be bothered. Shortly thereafter, the membership gets dis-statisfied. Mostly because they are uniformed and not involved. (their own fault) They get angry and jaded. They disengaged and state the organization is FUBAR, but promise to vote for someone else. Someone who is going to do for them what the previous officer wouldn't do. (and they won't do for themselves). Next election: repeat; who elects the leaders?

How could I or flygirl or any other pilot be expected to perform their role?

Attend the LEC meeting. Actively communicate with your leaders. Actively participate. Be an actor. Active. Activate. Participate.

At ALPA:

30-40% vote
5% attend meetings
15% give to PAC

This is a minority.

You are a SWAPA pilot... do you give to CAPA?

They are the leaders- they need to step up and lead- or give back their paychecks.

All ALPA volunteers keep their airline pay sans the President. This is what they'd earn if they flew the line. They could just fly the line and expect someone else to serve...

It's lime expecting the FO to not just be a Captain but perform the role of a chief pilot. One role at a time.

As I said, this is democracy... you get to and have to be your own representative. Expecting others to represent you when you are not willing to represent yourself is rediculous.

Is democracy perfect? Nope, and neither is ALPA. But complaining, not doing and acting is not a solution. Nothing will change.

Real change occurs, including in unions, not when the leaders effect change, but when the grassroots force is powerful enough.

 

[waveflyer]

Again- bad leadership and bad organization can kill participation. You seem to think the appropriate question is "what can the membership do to increase their own participation?"

Then your confused why alpa doesn't have the participation that Swapa has.

I think the question from leaders should be "what can we do to increase participation and fight apathy? How can we communicate better? How can we make it easier to participate?"

and then understand that pilots have their own lives- we elect union leaders to do the work that not all of us should or would want to do.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Again- bad leadership and bad organization can kill participation.

Yet the leadership requires participation of elections.

You seem to think the appropriate question is "what can the membership do to increase their own participation?"

Yeah, its called free will. What is stopping the membership from participating? Any member can attend a LEC meeting, so what is stopping them from attending? Pride? ego?

Then your confused why alpa doesn't have the participation that Swapa has.

I am not confused... SWAPA enjoys in house status with good managment.

I think the question from leaders should be "what can we do to increase participation and fight apathy? How can we communicate better? How can we make it easier to participate?"

That has been done with ALPA's SRSRC committee. Easier said than done.

and then understand that pilots have their own lives- we elect union leaders to do the work that not all of us should or would want to do.

So your fellow pilots volunteer..... VOLUNTEER to serve you?