The Brits show Americans the way. STRIKE!

[waveflyer]

I'm pretty sure flygirlqt can handle her own or I wouldn't be typing like that.
Not disagreeing with either of you- what I'm saying is that every organization needs a few chiefs who are disposed to that- and a lot of Indians. Disparaging the Indians for not being chiefs or aspiring to chiefs doesn't help your cause. Some ALPA groups function better than others-
but like usapa- if you wait til the Indians feel a pressing need to be involved- it's often a revolution- whether it's wise or not or if you like it or not.

If you want me to voice the one thing that pisses off most alpa members- it's this pushback on bad leadership - it's a no-brainer that leaders should lead. The fact that you can't concede that point even while I concede the point that members should participate- speaks volumes.

 

[pilotyip]

Remember all ALPA contracts are local in nature, that is why they are called locals.

 

[flygirlqt]

Apparently- you'd like to continue this conversation.

Tell you what- get flygirlqt to have dinner w/ me naked and we'll keep talking. Until then-alpa's your battle- and it's failings your problem.

I was a waitress at Hooters once and the pants still fit.

 

[Lear70]

I was a waitress at Hooters once and the pants still fit.

My ex-girlfriend was a Hooters girl.

Those shorts are pretty stretchy if memory serves...

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

I'm pretty sure flygirlqt can handle her own or I wouldn't be typing like that.

After the hooters comment you should be in heaven...

Not disagreeing with either of you- what I'm saying is that every organization needs a few chiefs who are disposed to that- and a lot of Indians. Disparaging the Indians for not being chiefs or aspiring to chiefs doesn't help your cause.

You are missing the point... any indian can be a chief. The way to be a chief is simply convince the indians that one is worthy of chief status.

The point is... democracy requires each "indian" to take on some responsbility. Neglecting the responsbility while expecting results that are of approval is a flaw.

Some ALPA groups function better than others-

Why is that?

but like usapa- if you wait til the Indians feel a pressing need to be involved- it's often a revolution- whether it's wise or not or if you like it or not.

Not sure USAPA eas a revolution rather than a coup.

If you want me to voice the one thing that pisses off most alpa members- it's this pushback on bad leadership - it's a no-brainer that leaders should lead.

Again... where to the leaders come from. Who says they are leaders? If a narcissist is elected and does worse than good, who is at fault? The narc should have never been there in the first place...

Again... participation rates in union and American democracy are a minority. At a MINIMUM, members/citizens should take their responsibility to ACT in a democracy seriously. Until they do, the leadership is place in position by a minority. How is that realistic?

The fact that you can't concede that point even while I concede the point that members should participate- speaks volumes.

It is the chicken/egg question.....

What comes first? Leaders or constituents?

Recall, leadership is nothing but influence. Anyone in a free and open organization is able to stand up and attempt to influence change.

Flygirl tries to do it on this webboard... but nothing changes. She is not influential... but a webboard is very ineffectual. The LEC meeting is THE format for democracy and change.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Remember all ALPA contracts are local in nature, that is why they are called locals.

CBAs governed by federal law.

 

[Lear70]

It is the chicken/egg question.....

What comes first? Leaders or constituents?

Leadership always comes first. That has been shown time and time again throughout history.

There is a need, someone finally says, "Fine, I'LL do it.", and rises to the challenge. If the leader is worth anything, others follow. Without followers (constituents), the leader fails.

It's not "the chicken or the egg", it's "are pilots willing to give up their time and provide support once a leader volunteers".

Recall, leadership is nothing but influence. Anyone in a free and open organization is able to stand up and attempt to influence change.

Flygirl tries to do it on this webboard... but nothing changes. She is not influential... but a webboard is very ineffectual. The LEC meeting is THE format for democracy and change.

And that's what YOU don't understand.

The LEC meeting accomplishes NOTHING if the followership (constituents) can't be bothered to attend. The message board, however, is EASY for the general line pilot to read and be influenced.

Case in point: AirTran and the last T.A. votes. I wasn't on the LEC/MEC/BoD, yet successfully lead a campaign that killed two T.A.'s and eventually lead to OTHER pilots recalling almost the entire elected MEC/BoD. I did it primarily via the message boards, the rest by being in Ops and circulating reading material that educated the pilots on the truths behind the lies the MEC/BoD was telling everyone.

The leadership at ALPA needs to realize (and I think many of them do) that the old method of relying on the membership to actively participate in local LEC/MEC meetings has become ineffective. Whether it's for lack of interest or simple laziness, I'm not here to say (and I think every airline is different in that respect so making a general, broad statement about the underlying cause of said apathy would be useless).

The goal of ALPA should now be to figure out how to energize a pilot group in the current era of e-commerce (LEC meetings recorded on video and available for download so the membership who couldn't be there CAN stay in the loop, thereby creating an interest to participate directly in one if they see a meeting go a way they don't want, etc).

You can't make things the way they were, all you can do is react to a changed environment appropriately. THAT'S Leadership.

 

[flygirlqt]

Flygirl tries to do it on this webboard... but nothing changes. She is not influential... but a webboard is very ineffectual. The LEC meeting is THE format for democracy and change.

This describes about 99% of your posts. You are a complete fool if you believe your endless pro ALPA diatribe sways the masses that feel disenfranchised. Democracy and change is not an inherit trait within ALPA.

 

[flygirlqt]

My ex-girlfriend was a Hooters girl.

Those shorts are pretty stretchy if memory serves...

They had to be for some of the cows that worked there. Still room with my fingers in between the waistband. Thank god for the Stairmaster.

 

[flygirlqt]

The leadership at ALPA needs to realize (and I think many of them do) that the old method of relying on the membership to actively participate in local LEC/MEC meetings has become ineffective. Whether it's for lack of interest or simple laziness,

Lack of effectiveness is also a factor. The bloated pay scales being paid from Prater on down are also not helping matters.

 

[waveflyer]

I was a waitress at Hooters once and the pants still fit.

I told you she could handle it...

The drink invite is still there qt

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Leadership always comes first. That has been shown time and time again throughout history.

There is a need, someone finally says, "Fine, I'LL do it.", and rises to the challenge. If the leader is worth anything, others follow. Without followers (constituents), the leader fails.

You said leadership comes first, then you state, someone... finally says... Who is someone? A Follower? A member? Who gave him/her the authority or credibility to lead?

It's not "the chicken or the egg", it's "are pilots willing to give up their time and provide support once a leader volunteers".

Why would they be willing to give up there time? What do they perceive to gain from it? Where in union history is it shown? Only in strikes... but day to day common participation is not historical or common.

And that's what YOU don't understand.

The LEC meeting accomplishes NOTHING if the followership (constituents) can't be bothered to attend. The message board, however, is EASY for the general line pilot to read and be influenced.

Case in point: AirTran and the last T.A. votes. I wasn't on the LEC/MEC/BoD, yet successfully lead a campaign that killed two T.A.'s and eventually lead to OTHER pilots recalling almost the entire elected MEC/BoD. I did it primarily via the message boards, the rest by being in Ops and circulating reading material that educated the pilots on the truths behind the lies the MEC/BoD was telling everyone.

It was the being in ops and circulating reading material. Message boards might have opened up the communication, but the deal was closed in face to face human contact: the LEC meeting.

The leadership at ALPA needs to realize (and I think many of them do) that the old method of relying on the membership to actively participate in local LEC/MEC meetings has become ineffective. Whether it's for lack of interest or simple laziness, I'm not here to say (and I think every airline is different in that respect so making a general, broad statement about the underlying cause of said apathy would be useless).

There never was an old method of relying on the membership.... it has always been like this.

From Flying the Line, Vol. 1, page 227:

Inevitably, a new generation arrived made up of pilots less steeped in the past struggles and more content about the professional status ALPA had created for them. The new generation was also increasingly indifferent to ALPA and its administration. Pioneer pilots, by and large, paid close attention to ALPA affairs, and they couldn’t understand the lackadaisical attitude of the younger pilots, partically when it came to governance at the local level. By the late 1950s, many pilots simply took for granted that somebody else would do the hard work needed to sustain ALPA. While complacent pilots golfed or pursued second careers, a minority ran ALPA’s local affairs on each airline.

Although most of these individuals were dedicated to making ALPA work, on some airlines a few pilots used ALPA as a gimmick for personal aggrandizement. The indifference of the rank and file and the poor attendance at local council meetings meant that a minority on any airline could, with proper planning, seize control and eventually dominate the master executive council (MEC) itself. The danger was that a well-organized clique could speak for an indifferent majority of pilots.

Take out 1950s and this applies to today. So if pilots like flygirl are sick of ALPA then she needs to stop with the same old way of doing things....

The goal of ALPA should now be to figure out how to energize a pilot group in the current era of e-commerce (LEC meetings recorded on video and available for download so the membership who couldn't be there CAN stay in the loop, thereby creating an interest to participate directly in one if they see a meeting go a way they don't want, etc).

The SRSRC committee looked at that..... there are legal issues.

What about voting... can you provide a valid reason why pilots don't vote? It takes 60 secs from ANY phone or computer to vote for LEC reps. I have never heard a valid reason for voter apathy.

You can't make things the way they were, all you can do is react to a changed environment appropriately. THAT'S Leadership.

Respectfully, things never were "the way they were..." Perhaps that is part of the problem.

Seriously... is this too difficult?:

One LEC meeting per year. Even if it cost an extra night in domicile and/or hotel. max 24-36 hours per year.

Vote in every LEC election. 60 seconds per vote.

Participate in every survey. 10-15 minutes per survey.

Contribute >$5 to the PAC. One time form or PC banking. 5 Mins.
​

And for those who are democratically skilled:

Volunteer 5 to 10 hours a month.
​

Where is the sacrifice here, when the career one saves could be ones own?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

This describes about 99% of your posts.

Then what is the difference between what you and I post?

You are a complete fool if you believe your endless pro ALPA diatribe sways the masses that feel disenfranchised.

The endless diatribe is not exclusive to ALPA... it is inclusive of democracy. If you want change.... then get to work. Don't exepct others to do what you refuse to do yourself...

Democracy and change is not an inherit trait within ALPA.

Why becuase you don't get it? Because they don't do what you want?


Here is an excellent speech by DoD Sec Gates...
http://www.defense.gov/Speeches/Speech.aspx?SpeechID=1152

Here are few highlights:

What William & Mary gave me, above all else, was a calling to serve—a sense of duty to community and country that this college has sought to instill in each generation of students for more than 300 years. It is a calling rooted in the history and traditions of this institution.
,“Its leaders were always fighting. Leaders who were incompetent or unpopular—sometimes the most competent were the least popular—were deposed on the spot,” He continues, “The typical 17th Century account of Jamestown argues that everything would have gone well if everyone besides the author had not done wrong.” Sounds like today’s memoirs by former government officials.

When talking about American democracy, we hear a great deal about freedoms, and rights, and, more recently, about the entitlements of citizenship. We hear a good deal less about the duties and responsibilities of being an American.

That is what makes it puzzling that so manyyoung people who are public-minded when it comes to their campus and community tend to be uninterested in— if not distrustfulof—our political processes. Nor is there much enthusiasm for participating in government, either as a candidate or for a career.
While volunteering for a good cause is important, it is not enough. This country will only survive and progress as a democracy if its citizens—young and old alike—take an active role in its political life as well.

Ed Muskie, former senator and Secretary of State, once said that “you have the God given right to kick the government around.” And it starts with voting, and becoming involved in campaigns. If you think that too many politicians are feckless and corrupt, then go out and help elect different ones. Or go out and run yourself. But you must participate, or else the decisions that affect your life and the future of our country will be made for you—and without you.
So vote. And volunteer. But also consider doing something else: dedicating at least part of your life in service to our country.

Government is, by design of the Founding Fathers, slow, unwieldy and almost comically inefficient. Our Founding Fathers did not have efficiency as their primary goal. They designed a system intended to sustain and protect liberty for the ages. Getting things done in government is not easy, but it’s not supposed to be.

And he wrote:“Public business, my son, must always be done by somebody. It will be done by somebody or another. If wise men decline it, others will not; if honest men refuse it, others will not.” Will the wise and the honest among you come help us serve the American people?



​

​

I think professional United States pilots contributing to the safest Air Transportation system in the world is in the public interest. It is to serve the American people.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Lack of effectiveness is also a factor.

If a democratic system is too effect the constant changes would be..... ineffective.

In addition, I asked what your real issue is... rage for Praters payscale can't be original. They most likely stem from someone teaching you to believe this, or your discontent comes from expectations not met in your own pay and/or career.

The bloated pay scales being paid from Prater on down are also not helping matters.

Respectfully, you continue to show your ignorance on the issue.

The only ALPA employee is the ALPA Prez. Take the top 3 airlines pay and look at the avg days off. 15 days off per month? 17?

The Prez works min 6 days a week or 4 days off a month. So how is the pay supposed to be?

In addition, the BOD, the pilots elected by only 1/3 of the membership, disagree with you. They've approved the pay. I don't understand why you constantly come on here stomping your feet like Danica Patrick when you don't get your way. If you feel this is not just, then pass a resolution at your LEC meeting. Why is this difficult?

The EVPs and VPs get what they'd earn from their airlines. No bloated salaries here.....

 

[PCL_128]

I agree with much of what Rez is saying here, but one area I do disagree with him is the effectiveness of web boards. I think Lear70 is absolutely right that they can be incredibly effective, and far too many ALPA leaders don't understand the value. Everyone discounts the web board as being "the crack pipe," or something similar, but the truth is that even though only a small group of pilots post, a huge percentage of the membership lurks and reads. By addressing the concerns of the militants that usually reside on the web boards, you go a long way in educating the rest of the members and bringing people together.

Yes, the attorneys hate the web boards, but this is one of those few areas where I tell them to f--- off.