The Brits show Americans the way. STRIKE!

[waveflyer]

I was a waitress at Hooters once and the pants still fit.

I told you she could handle it...

The drink invite is still there qt

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Leadership always comes first. That has been shown time and time again throughout history.

There is a need, someone finally says, "Fine, I'LL do it.", and rises to the challenge. If the leader is worth anything, others follow. Without followers (constituents), the leader fails.

You said leadership comes first, then you state, someone... finally says... Who is someone? A Follower? A member? Who gave him/her the authority or credibility to lead?

It's not "the chicken or the egg", it's "are pilots willing to give up their time and provide support once a leader volunteers".

Why would they be willing to give up there time? What do they perceive to gain from it? Where in union history is it shown? Only in strikes... but day to day common participation is not historical or common.

And that's what YOU don't understand.

The LEC meeting accomplishes NOTHING if the followership (constituents) can't be bothered to attend. The message board, however, is EASY for the general line pilot to read and be influenced.

Case in point: AirTran and the last T.A. votes. I wasn't on the LEC/MEC/BoD, yet successfully lead a campaign that killed two T.A.'s and eventually lead to OTHER pilots recalling almost the entire elected MEC/BoD. I did it primarily via the message boards, the rest by being in Ops and circulating reading material that educated the pilots on the truths behind the lies the MEC/BoD was telling everyone.

It was the being in ops and circulating reading material. Message boards might have opened up the communication, but the deal was closed in face to face human contact: the LEC meeting.

The leadership at ALPA needs to realize (and I think many of them do) that the old method of relying on the membership to actively participate in local LEC/MEC meetings has become ineffective. Whether it's for lack of interest or simple laziness, I'm not here to say (and I think every airline is different in that respect so making a general, broad statement about the underlying cause of said apathy would be useless).

There never was an old method of relying on the membership.... it has always been like this.

From Flying the Line, Vol. 1, page 227:

Inevitably, a new generation arrived made up of pilots less steeped in the past struggles and more content about the professional status ALPA had created for them. The new generation was also increasingly indifferent to ALPA and its administration. Pioneer pilots, by and large, paid close attention to ALPA affairs, and they couldn’t understand the lackadaisical attitude of the younger pilots, partically when it came to governance at the local level. By the late 1950s, many pilots simply took for granted that somebody else would do the hard work needed to sustain ALPA. While complacent pilots golfed or pursued second careers, a minority ran ALPA’s local affairs on each airline.

Although most of these individuals were dedicated to making ALPA work, on some airlines a few pilots used ALPA as a gimmick for personal aggrandizement. The indifference of the rank and file and the poor attendance at local council meetings meant that a minority on any airline could, with proper planning, seize control and eventually dominate the master executive council (MEC) itself. The danger was that a well-organized clique could speak for an indifferent majority of pilots.

Take out 1950s and this applies to today. So if pilots like flygirl are sick of ALPA then she needs to stop with the same old way of doing things....

The goal of ALPA should now be to figure out how to energize a pilot group in the current era of e-commerce (LEC meetings recorded on video and available for download so the membership who couldn't be there CAN stay in the loop, thereby creating an interest to participate directly in one if they see a meeting go a way they don't want, etc).

The SRSRC committee looked at that..... there are legal issues.

What about voting... can you provide a valid reason why pilots don't vote? It takes 60 secs from ANY phone or computer to vote for LEC reps. I have never heard a valid reason for voter apathy.

You can't make things the way they were, all you can do is react to a changed environment appropriately. THAT'S Leadership.

Respectfully, things never were "the way they were..." Perhaps that is part of the problem.

Seriously... is this too difficult?:

One LEC meeting per year. Even if it cost an extra night in domicile and/or hotel. max 24-36 hours per year.

Vote in every LEC election. 60 seconds per vote.

Participate in every survey. 10-15 minutes per survey.

Contribute >$5 to the PAC. One time form or PC banking. 5 Mins.
​

And for those who are democratically skilled:

Volunteer 5 to 10 hours a month.
​

Where is the sacrifice here, when the career one saves could be ones own?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

This describes about 99% of your posts.

Then what is the difference between what you and I post?

You are a complete fool if you believe your endless pro ALPA diatribe sways the masses that feel disenfranchised.

The endless diatribe is not exclusive to ALPA... it is inclusive of democracy. If you want change.... then get to work. Don't exepct others to do what you refuse to do yourself...

Democracy and change is not an inherit trait within ALPA.

Why becuase you don't get it? Because they don't do what you want?


Here is an excellent speech by DoD Sec Gates...
http://www.defense.gov/Speeches/Speech.aspx?SpeechID=1152

Here are few highlights:

What William & Mary gave me, above all else, was a calling to serve—a sense of duty to community and country that this college has sought to instill in each generation of students for more than 300 years. It is a calling rooted in the history and traditions of this institution.
,“Its leaders were always fighting. Leaders who were incompetent or unpopular—sometimes the most competent were the least popular—were deposed on the spot,” He continues, “The typical 17th Century account of Jamestown argues that everything would have gone well if everyone besides the author had not done wrong.” Sounds like today’s memoirs by former government officials.

When talking about American democracy, we hear a great deal about freedoms, and rights, and, more recently, about the entitlements of citizenship. We hear a good deal less about the duties and responsibilities of being an American.

That is what makes it puzzling that so manyyoung people who are public-minded when it comes to their campus and community tend to be uninterested in— if not distrustfulof—our political processes. Nor is there much enthusiasm for participating in government, either as a candidate or for a career.
While volunteering for a good cause is important, it is not enough. This country will only survive and progress as a democracy if its citizens—young and old alike—take an active role in its political life as well.

Ed Muskie, former senator and Secretary of State, once said that “you have the God given right to kick the government around.” And it starts with voting, and becoming involved in campaigns. If you think that too many politicians are feckless and corrupt, then go out and help elect different ones. Or go out and run yourself. But you must participate, or else the decisions that affect your life and the future of our country will be made for you—and without you.
So vote. And volunteer. But also consider doing something else: dedicating at least part of your life in service to our country.

Government is, by design of the Founding Fathers, slow, unwieldy and almost comically inefficient. Our Founding Fathers did not have efficiency as their primary goal. They designed a system intended to sustain and protect liberty for the ages. Getting things done in government is not easy, but it’s not supposed to be.

And he wrote:“Public business, my son, must always be done by somebody. It will be done by somebody or another. If wise men decline it, others will not; if honest men refuse it, others will not.” Will the wise and the honest among you come help us serve the American people?



​

​

I think professional United States pilots contributing to the safest Air Transportation system in the world is in the public interest. It is to serve the American people.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Lack of effectiveness is also a factor.

If a democratic system is too effect the constant changes would be..... ineffective.

In addition, I asked what your real issue is... rage for Praters payscale can't be original. They most likely stem from someone teaching you to believe this, or your discontent comes from expectations not met in your own pay and/or career.

The bloated pay scales being paid from Prater on down are also not helping matters.

Respectfully, you continue to show your ignorance on the issue.

The only ALPA employee is the ALPA Prez. Take the top 3 airlines pay and look at the avg days off. 15 days off per month? 17?

The Prez works min 6 days a week or 4 days off a month. So how is the pay supposed to be?

In addition, the BOD, the pilots elected by only 1/3 of the membership, disagree with you. They've approved the pay. I don't understand why you constantly come on here stomping your feet like Danica Patrick when you don't get your way. If you feel this is not just, then pass a resolution at your LEC meeting. Why is this difficult?

The EVPs and VPs get what they'd earn from their airlines. No bloated salaries here.....

 

[PCL_128]

I agree with much of what Rez is saying here, but one area I do disagree with him is the effectiveness of web boards. I think Lear70 is absolutely right that they can be incredibly effective, and far too many ALPA leaders don't understand the value. Everyone discounts the web board as being "the crack pipe," or something similar, but the truth is that even though only a small group of pilots post, a huge percentage of the membership lurks and reads. By addressing the concerns of the militants that usually reside on the web boards, you go a long way in educating the rest of the members and bringing people together.

Yes, the attorneys hate the web boards, but this is one of those few areas where I tell them to f--- off.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

I agree with much of what Rez is saying here, but one area I do disagree with him is the effectiveness of web boards. I think Lear70 is absolutely right that they can be incredibly effective, and far too many ALPA leaders don't understand the value. Everyone discounts the web board as being "the crack pipe," or something similar, but the truth is that even though only a small group of pilots post, a huge percentage of the membership lurks and reads. By addressing the concerns of the militants that usually reside on the web boards, you go a long way in educating the rest of the members and bringing people together.

Yes, the attorneys hate the web boards, but this is one of those few areas where I tell them to f--- off.

The boards can be used to get a flavor or pulse of the pilots, but you cannot have real meaningful dialog or democratic action on the boards.

Only a LEC/MEC meeting is where action or change takes place. A webboard can't do that.

 

[Lear70]

They had to be for some of the cows that worked there. Still room with my fingers in between the waistband. Thank god for the Stairmaster.

LOL - ok, that's funny. Mine was a Size 2, but I've seen the ones you're referring to... especially these days.

Have to disagree with you about the pay scales, at least on the local level. I know our guys on full-time buy spend 10-12 hours a day in the office, and draw 100 hours of pay instead of 80-90 hours of credit the normal line pilot draws, and for the extra 10-20 hours of credit, they can KEEP the office job. WAY too much work for me, I'm a line pilot who likes to volunteer to help (although, after what I've been through, you'll be lucky if I ever volunteer for office again).

You said leadership comes first, then you state, someone... finally says... Who is someone? A Follower? A member? Who gave him/her the authority or credibility to lead?

Well, if they're leading, they're not following.

Yes, a member.

The membership who FOLLOWS that person gives them the authority to lead. The credibility,,, well, that Leader has to SHOW that or no one will follow them.

Why would they be willing to give up there time? What do they perceive to gain from it? Where in union history is it shown? Only in strikes... but day to day common participation is not historical or common.

And therein lies the problem. You say the followership is the problem (and I agree), but you acknowledge that day-to-day common participation is one of those problems in the followership. That has to change, and ALPA needs to figure out how.

It was the being in ops and circulating reading material. Message boards might have opened up the communication, but the deal was closed in face to face human contact: the LEC meeting.

Nope, it wasn't sealed in ops, I wasn't there that much (maybe 2 or 3 times). Circulating the reading material helped, but it was the debate on the message boards that continues to be the deal-closer in current elections. More people read those than you think.

The SRSRC committee looked at that..... there are legal issues.

What about voting... can you provide a valid reason why pilots don't vote? It takes 60 secs from ANY phone or computer to vote for LEC reps. I have never heard a valid reason for voter apathy.

My personal opinion is that about 1/3 of the pilots often don't KNOW there are votes going on. Those that do, if things are going acceptably well, don't really care WHO is representing them, they only care when things are going BADLY, so as long as the status quo is acceptable, many of those who pay attention will only vote if they happen to think about it.

I'm not saying I agree with it (obviously I don't, I vote in EVERY election I'm eligible for), but that seems to be what I come up with when I talk to pilots.

I agree with much of what Rez is saying here, but one area I do disagree with him is the effectiveness of web boards. I think Lear70 is absolutely right that they can be incredibly effective, and far too many ALPA leaders don't understand the value. Everyone discounts the web board as being "the crack pipe," or something similar, but the truth is that even though only a small group of pilots post, a huge percentage of the membership lurks and reads. By addressing the concerns of the militants that usually reside on the web boards, you go a long way in educating the rest of the members and bringing people together.

Yes, the attorneys hate the web boards, but this is one of those few areas where I tell them to f--- off.

BINGO! Give that man a cigar.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

And therein lies the problem. You say the followership is the problem (and I agree), but you acknowledge that day-to-day common participation is one of those problems in the followership. That has to change, and ALPA needs to figure out how.

Cliche about horse to water can't make him drink....

C'mon Lear.... we are talking about college educated professional educated airline pilots and American citizens.... not illiterate frontiersmen from 1793. Are you telling me that personal responsibility and democratic practice is lost on these people?

Nope, it wasn't sealed in ops, I wasn't there that much (maybe 2 or 3 times). Circulating the reading material helped, but it was the debate on the message boards that continues to be the deal-closer in current elections. More people read those than you think.

No... I know the ratio of posters vs lurkers.... I'll give you your TA.. because it hit home (meaning wallet) of so many pilots... but the normal union affairs don't apply to message boards, whereas LEC meetings do..

My personal opinion is that about 1/3 of the pilots often don't KNOW there are votes going on. Those that do, if things are going acceptably well, don't really care WHO is representing them, they only care when things are going BADLY, so as long as the status quo is acceptable, many of those who pay attention will only vote if they happen to think about it.

I'm not saying I agree with it (obviously I don't, I vote in EVERY election I'm eligible for), but that seems to be what I come up with when I talk to pilots.

This is the same logic of yours on the other thread for skywest voting for a union.... where you state... by the time you need a union it is far too late....

Well, the same applies... having a union is one thing, actively participating and being up to speed on union effectiveness is another... just like your "when you a need a union its too late".... the same applies to "when you need an effective union its too late..."

Sorry... it is not up to a peer pilot to stand up and say "ok, ok, fine, I'll be a leader to......all of you leaders. Isn't that what pilots inherently are: leaders? College educated professionals and American citizens of democracy.....

Voting and attending LEC meetings is standard... pilots should not have to be lead in this regard... basic and fundamental participation.

So when something big hits a pilot group... like USAIRs Nic award or UALs Aer Lingus threat... they are ready... just like Skywest... when they need a union, they've got one... (same with jetblue... when they need one they will be YEARS behind in effectiveness)

BINGO! Give that man a cigar.

pizza...