The Brits show Americans the way. STRIKE!

[waveflyer]

.... I would rather be a productive member of society than sitting around on my tush hanging out at the country club.

are you the perfect girl? ;-) If you're remotely sexy- I just fell for you- either way- well said- we were not made to sit on our butts or lose our curiosity- good luck on the jd

Rez -
What are you, handing out homework? I'm SWAPA- a union where most are very happy- at 1% dues- it's you who have to justify or combat the perception of continued outsourcing, secretiveness, inflated salaries and red tape at 3% dues. Not me. Whether you think there is a problem or not- at the very least you have a perception problem. Communication. Transparency. Organization to ease involvement- consider mandatory involvement- communicate. Communicate. Build trust. Build credibility. Honesty. Integrity.

Alpa reps ought to stay current.

If you'll read my posts- when I'm talking to flygirl- I say don't bash - look in the mirror- why would that not apply to you as well-? to ALPA leadership?

Leaders don't blame those they lead? In the end- leadership matters. It's not a 'what came first good leadership or membership involvement?' question. That's not chicken/egg unanswerable- good leadership comes first. And bad leadership can kill involvement.
So can scapegoating the membership. Until ALPA leaders acknowledge and take responsibility for past failures- it won't grow past this awful decade.

Fight that all you want- but it's true. And I say it bc I know SWAPA and all pilots will benefit from a well run alpa- Im not bitter and want alpa to fail- I want them to get their act together and become an organization worth joining.

 

[Lear70]

are you the perfect girl? ;-) If you're remotely sexy- I just fell for you- either way- well said- we were not made to sit on our butts or lose our curiosity- good luck on the jd

Leg humper alert... LMAO (couldn't resist) :beer:

Alpa reps ought to stay current.

Depends on the rep and the situation. Here at AirTran, where we're in the most intense part of negotiations leading up to a strike, I want my STATUS reps to stay current, as they're the ones who are voting on whether to pass a T.A. to membership. I want them to remember every irritation of daily flying, as well as the good parts of our contract, so that they can look at any agreement with a line pilot's point of view.

However, our Pres, VP, and NC? No way. It's not feasible. Having done union work, there's NO way to do this, especially with the grievance load, constant contract reinterpretations, and negotiations all going on at the same time.

YMMV working for SWA, but here that's a non-starter.

Leaders don't blame those they lead? In the end- leadership matters. It's not a 'what came first good leadership or membership involvement?' question. That's not chicken/egg unanswerable- good leadership comes first. And bad leadership can kill involvement.
So can scapegoating the membership. Until ALPA leaders acknowledge and take responsibility for past failures- it won't grow past this awful decade.

I've had this conversation ad nauseum with Rez. While I support and believe in the ALPA structure and always have, there IS a tendency for the UPPER leadership to become disenfranchised from their representative group, especially when you have pilots who, for the most part, refuse to get involved on a PERSONAL level, who won't give up their personal days off to do union work or really ANYTHING above just lip service to union support.

Good leadership undoubtedly came first, but you can't change a pilot's basic nature to not get involved until something personal to them is in jeopardy. You know, just as well as anyone else, that you just want to come to work, fly your trip under the rules in your CBA, get paid, and go home. EVERY pilot is like that, for the most part...

Once the leader is in place and LEADING, it's then up to the pilot group to do what is necessary to support that leader by doing what that leader asks, picketing events, strict contract enforcement, etc. If you don't like him/her, replace them with someone who WILL lead in the direction the majority wants to go, but then do what that leader asks of you.

The leadership comes first, but the followership has to be right on its tail, or nothing will happen, everyone gets frustrated, and inevitably blames the leadership. I suspect it's been this way for going on 2 decades at ALPA...

p.s. Thanks, FlyG for the words of support. My main focus is getting my AirTran job back at arbitration in Feb, and it looks very positive, but a good aviator always leaves their options open. Hope you enjoyed that Molson (I'm a scotch drinker, myself).

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Rez -
What are you, handing out homework?

You said an Occupational Behavior book would help ALPA. I asked you to be specific in what you mean. You can't use a broad brush, then refrain from details. That is too easy.....

So what do you mean...

I'm SWAPA- a union where most are very happy- at 1% dues-

Again, in house local politics are relatively easy.... compared to ALPA; local, national and international.....

In addition, SWAPA enjoys probably the best management out there....

it's you who have to justify or combat the perception of continued outsourcing, secretiveness, inflated salaries and red tape at 3% dues.

One of the problems with ALPA is, the MEC and National level have minimal if at all, pilot membership interaction. National is hated because pilots have no ownership or responsibility. So what is the solution? Hate? Anger? a mob mentality...??

Not me. Whether you think there is a problem or not- at the very least you have a perception problem. Communication. Transparency. Organization to ease involvement- consider mandatory involvement- communicate. Communicate. Build trust. Build credibility. Honesty. Integrity.

Agreed. So I have asked you and your new crush to quantify and be specific. I have yet to get an answer. This doesn't work....

Hater: I hate ALPA?
Other: Why?
H: they're are all crooks.
O: really, how? why? What laws are broken?
H: they just are....
O: I'd like specifics....
H: never mind....
​

Am I missing something?

Alpa reps ought to stay current.

LEC reps do.
MEC can't.
EVPs do.
National Reps Can't.

union reps are politicians. You have this perception that these guys are fat cats when they are working 6 to 7 days a week, 10+ hour days. Politics is where the Air Line Pilot career is defined. Line flying by pilots is defined at the airport. Careers are defined on CapHill. You need a politician that knows line flying.

If you'll read my posts- when I'm talking to flygirl- I say don't bash - look in the mirror- why would that not apply to you as well-? to ALPA leadership?

Because the membership has an expectation problem. The only way improvements are going to be made is thru politics. Yet here you are saying, I want my politicians to be line qualed and current.

Why?

If reps are flying the line then they are not fixing your career for you. How does flying a trip help?

Leaders don't blame those they lead? In the end- leadership matters. It's not a 'what came first good leadership or membership involvement?' question. That's not chicken/egg unanswerable- good leadership comes first. And bad leadership can kill involvement.

Round and round we go, where it stops......

Who elects the leaders? Who vetts them? How do they get into office. Democracy is slow, painful, boring, annoying, time consuming and demanding. As union pilots any one can step up and say, "give me your dues money and I'll manage millions of your wages via our CBA". Anyone.

So who is going to do it? If any given line pilot won't, then why do they expect excellence from anyone else.....

If people don't lead themselves, then weak, incompetent, dishonest and/or even evil people will.

So can scapegoating the membership. Until ALPA leaders acknowledge and take responsibility for past failures- it won't grow past this awful decade.

What responsibility?

9/11?
BK era?
Age 65?

Fight that all you want- but it's true. And I say it bc I know SWAPA and all pilots will benefit from a well run alpa- Im not bitter and want alpa to fail- I want them to get their act together and become an organization worth joining.

You guys constantly get on here and bash ALPA. Fine. I've got my ALPA problems too.....

But what changes? You elect new leaders and get angry they aren't you, doing what you want. Active involvement. The problem is democracy is slow, painful, boring, annoying, time consuming and demanding. Most people don't have the patience for it. That is not a leadership problem, that is a membership problem.

Identify the problem and work the solution. Easy said than done, but at least you can do that. Try that with your company.

Unions are democracies. As American citizens we should have the skillset to function in a small democracy such as unions. Why is it difficult?

What is the deal? Union members act like consumers in a big box store or a restaurant... the customer is always right....100% satisfaction. This isn't the market, this is democracy.

Each person is responsible for being their own advocate. You can't expect one leader or a small group of leaders to represent each constituent wholly. Representation erodes rights. Only each person can represent themselves wholly. If you are not actively representing yourself then you will be disappointed.....

Our democracy allows that, we need to use it....

 

[Pilotbob3]

Here in the land of the free, you go to jail if you strike without permission.

yes and very well! ask the NYC Subway union president what he did and what he got! any union president should be fully prepared to go to jail!

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

yes and very well! ask the NYC Subway union president what he did and what he got! any union president should be fully prepared to go to jail!

Agreed.... and any union member should be fully prepared to go with him!

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Rez..I have had a long day maybe I'll respond later to your tired worn out ALPA puffing diatribe. Right now it is time for a couple of cold Molsons and I am going to kick back watching another semester fade into oblivion.

It is no diatribe... all I am saying is don't expect others to do for you what you aren't willing to do for yourself...... see my previous post.

Take your time.... as a lawyer to be, you should easily be able to put together worthy reply. Respectfully.... and rezfully... :beer:

 

[waveflyer]

Rez- your logic is circular.

Aren't there elected officers whose job it is to lead?

How could I or flygirl or any other pilot be expected to perform their role? They are the leaders- they need to step up and lead- or give back their paychecks. It's lime expecting the FO to not just be a Captain but perform the role of a chief pilot. One role at a time.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Rez- your logic is circular.

No, it is not. Stick with me...

Aren't there elected officers whose job it is to lead?

Who elects the leaders? The membership. (30% actually do, the other ~70% can't be bothered). Soon into the term, only 5% attend meetings. The other 95% can't be bothered. Shortly thereafter, the membership gets dis-statisfied. Mostly because they are uniformed and not involved. (their own fault) They get angry and jaded. They disengaged and state the organization is FUBAR, but promise to vote for someone else. Someone who is going to do for them what the previous officer wouldn't do. (and they won't do for themselves). Next election: repeat; who elects the leaders?

How could I or flygirl or any other pilot be expected to perform their role?

Attend the LEC meeting. Actively communicate with your leaders. Actively participate. Be an actor. Active. Activate. Participate.

At ALPA:

30-40% vote
5% attend meetings
15% give to PAC

This is a minority.

You are a SWAPA pilot... do you give to CAPA?

They are the leaders- they need to step up and lead- or give back their paychecks.

All ALPA volunteers keep their airline pay sans the President. This is what they'd earn if they flew the line. They could just fly the line and expect someone else to serve...

It's lime expecting the FO to not just be a Captain but perform the role of a chief pilot. One role at a time.

As I said, this is democracy... you get to and have to be your own representative. Expecting others to represent you when you are not willing to represent yourself is rediculous.

Is democracy perfect? Nope, and neither is ALPA. But complaining, not doing and acting is not a solution. Nothing will change.

Real change occurs, including in unions, not when the leaders effect change, but when the grassroots force is powerful enough.

 

[waveflyer]

Again- bad leadership and bad organization can kill participation. You seem to think the appropriate question is "what can the membership do to increase their own participation?"

Then your confused why alpa doesn't have the participation that Swapa has.

I think the question from leaders should be "what can we do to increase participation and fight apathy? How can we communicate better? How can we make it easier to participate?"

and then understand that pilots have their own lives- we elect union leaders to do the work that not all of us should or would want to do.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Again- bad leadership and bad organization can kill participation.

Yet the leadership requires participation of elections.

You seem to think the appropriate question is "what can the membership do to increase their own participation?"

Yeah, its called free will. What is stopping the membership from participating? Any member can attend a LEC meeting, so what is stopping them from attending? Pride? ego?

Then your confused why alpa doesn't have the participation that Swapa has.

I am not confused... SWAPA enjoys in house status with good managment.

I think the question from leaders should be "what can we do to increase participation and fight apathy? How can we communicate better? How can we make it easier to participate?"

That has been done with ALPA's SRSRC committee. Easier said than done.

and then understand that pilots have their own lives- we elect union leaders to do the work that not all of us should or would want to do.

So your fellow pilots volunteer..... VOLUNTEER to serve you?