The Brits show Americans the way. STRIKE!

[DC10]

We'll definitely keep fighting the fight, but unless the Brits want to allow us to apply to THEIR companies just like THEY can apply to OURS, or can figure out a way to force our government to change the RLA just as they want to force our government to change Cabotage and Open Skies laws, then no, they aren't showing us anything useful at all.

Lear, I'm usually a fan of yours but I have to correct you here as your facts are wrong. As a dual UK/US citizen I can tell you that I know for a fact that the British airlines have hiring requirements that are no different from the US airlines. These are, local (JAA) licenses, as well as the LEGAL right to live and work in the UK. To state that Americans can't apply to British airlines while Brits can apply to US airlines is absolutely wrong. For the record, I personally know Americans flying for BA, Ryanair and Easyjet in the UK, as well as Air France and SAS.

Also, don't believe for a second that Cabotage and Open Skies are a one way street; the major US airlines want Cabotage and Open Skies so that they can start flying revenue flights within Europe every bit as much as the European airlines want it in the US. The US airlines have been lobbying the European Union very strongly in favor of Open Skies agreements.

Other than that, thanks for all you've done for our pilot group and hopefully we'll see you online again soon.

 

[clippyrip]

Be careful what you ask for. If the RLA gets opened up, the pilots won't be the only ones at the rule making process.

So true. One of the VPs at AK Air is a family friend and we spoke about the RLA and how he wants to see it go away. That makes one wonder, if management wants it and the pilots want it, who wins? Can't be both...

 

[Lear70]

Lear, I'm usually a fan of yours but I have to correct you here as your facts are wrong. As a dual UK/US citizen I can tell you that I know for a fact that the British airlines have hiring requirements that are no different from the US airlines. These are, local (JAA) licenses, as well as the LEGAL right to live and work in the UK. To state that Americans can't apply to British airlines while Brits can apply to US airlines is absolutely wrong. For the record, I personally know Americans flying for BA, Ryanair and Easyjet in the UK, as well as Air France and SAS.

Not trying to pick a fight, but I am definitely going to have to disagree with you that this is a level playing field.

It's almost IMPOSSIBLE these days to get long-term EU right of abode without a sponsor (someone who is going to hire you for a job you are uniquely suitable for - none of the airlines will do that in the EU), or marrying a EU citizen (and who wants to do that just for a job?), or having a child in the UK (and even that has its own strict terms and conditions and, again, who's going to do that just to increase their job possibilities?). Unless you want to change your citizenship away from the U.S., and I don't know of too many people who are eager to do that...

Conversely, it has been much easier, historically-speaking, for foreigners to come to the U.S., get their ratings, get a job, then use that job as a basis for permanent citizenship and get it within a reasonable amount of time. It's one of the things this country was founded on, just the nature of the beast, and has been this way for as long as I have been a pilot (20+ years), and has only gotten worse with so many U.S. pilots out of a job.

Also, don't believe for a second that Cabotage and Open Skies are a one way street; the major US airlines want Cabotage and Open Skies so that they can start flying revenue flights within Europe every bit as much as the European airlines want it in the US. The US airlines have been lobbying the European Union very strongly in favor of Open Skies agreements.

Granted, but I still think it's a terrible idea for labor.

It's part of that "life cycle of an airline" I was talking about in another thread regarding deregulation. If an airline can't grow, it will die as its costs increase without new routes and income to support those increasing costs since other companies with lower costs keep the prices artificially depressed and prevent raising ticket prices to cover costs. U.S. airlines want Open Skies in Europe so they can expand to survive. Either way, labor loses, which is why I vehemently oppose Open Skies and Cabotage, as it will put more downward pressure on wages with more ASM's which always drives down fares.

Other than that, thanks for all you've done for our pilot group and hopefully we'll see you online again soon.

Thanks, I appreciate that. 2 more months to Arbitration, then 60-90 days for the award... Lots of work left to do, still. Merry Christmas!

 

[Dieterly]

We'll definitely keep fighting the fight, but unless the Brits want to allow us to apply to THEIR companies just like THEY can apply to OURS.

What the hell are you talking about?

 

[Lear70]

What the hell are you talking about?

You have to have PERMANENT EU right of abode in order to work for any of the EU companies.

Have you ever tried to get that as a U.S. citizen? It's difficult in the extreme, and that's an understatement. I looked into it last year when I spent a month flying in Italy. It's not even the JAA licensing that's the hard part (although that's time consuming), it's getting an EU passport and/or EU right of abode on a permanent basis that's the hard part.

But thanks for being so polite about it...

 

[Lear70]

So true. One of the VPs at AK Air is a family friend and we spoke about the RLA and how he wants to see it go away. That makes one wonder, if management wants it and the pilots want it, who wins? Can't be both...

One thing the RLA does is give time to the unions to get all the pilots on board for a strike. That can be useful, since pilots are loathe to risk their jobs (and no one wants to see their company go out of business), and it takes a while to get everyone on board in this country, unlike the EU where strikes and labor unions are just the same way they've done business for centuries. Their employees are much more used to that type of process.

Another thing the RLA does is prevent management from unilaterally imposing new work rules / pay rates on the very day that the contract is amendable, and forces them to go through the bargaining process or the court system in bankruptcy to obtain concessions.

Using AirTran as an example, back when the contract became amendable and we had a weak union on property (about 5 years ago), if there were no RLA on the day the contract became amendable, management could have walked in and said, "We're going to unilaterally cut wages by 20%, cut your B fund by 50%, and get rid of the Twomey/Casher award". The pilots would be up in arms, but afraid to walk off the line that very day. Then the company comes in at the last second and says "Unless you sign this new contract that freezes all wages for another 10 years, we're going to follow through with our cuts". It's possible it would have passed. Today is another story.

Now that we've had time to get our ducks in order, stronger union, more organized, and ready to fight that battle, management is in a much worse position to do any such thing once we're released into self-help.

So it's a two-way street. Yes, we'd get the ability to wildcat strike, sympathy strike, and not wait half a decade or longer for the process to work, but management at airlines that weren't prepared could seriously mess with the pilot group. It would require an entirely new method of preparation and operation by unions in this country.

 

[DC10]

Lear, I understand what you're saying, however, contrary to popular belief, it's almost impossible for a non US citizen to come to flying school over here and get anything other than a non-extendable 2 year work visa to build experience as a flight instructor. There's practically no chance of getting a green card / citizenship without marrying a US citizen. No different to the situation in Europe. I know many who have tried and failed. I also know 2 Americans who married Brits just to obtain UK residency and then divorced as soon as their papers came through.

I totally agree with you that Cabotage / Open Skies is a bad idea for labor. Good luck with the Arbitration, there are lots of FL pilots hoping you get reinstated.

 

[pilotyip]

Strikes at union companies only help non-union companies. Where the employees do not have beome unemployed while striking. And thier enlightened employer matches the union pay and benefits. i.e Toyota, Honda etc. Strikes and threat of strikes have done wonders for the UAW haven't they?

 

[Dornier 335]

about US and EU

The fact is that aviation used to be a less complicated world 10 years ago/pre-911. Back then with some luck EU citizens were able to get a work visa with the help of $$$ and a good immigration attorney. I believe Ryanair helped qualified pilots to obtain work visas for Europe. You could transfer your foreign type on your FAA ATP without any major complications.

One thing I don't understand is how UPS is able to maintain a hub in CGN (Cologne-Bonn). I believe it would be impossible if DHL decided to make an airport in the US a hub and staffed it entirely with EU pilots (not trying to start a flight - just sayin').

Unfortunately today, both regulatory worlds have made it impossible to move back and forth between the EU and US market. Licenses and TR are not transferable or recognized and the general perception on both sides towards any foreigner is "why don't you just go back home". It's a shame really considering that nothing is more international than aviation. Most pilots these days are busier with Union CBAs, FARs or JARs, and dumb laws that restrict them and aim to take the fun out of this profession.

 

[BOOZENEWS]

And what are the atlernatives? Oh yeah...

Don't you think we could get it amended drastically in our favor with a democratic pres, a majority in the house and a filabuster proof majority in the Senate? Seems like it to me. Maybe not everything, but a lot more than now.

While the dems won't likely support us, I can't imagine they will WORK AGAINST US and therefore anger labor at large (outside of aviation) in time for the 2010 elections.

Thoughts?