Thank-you Mesaba

[Lear70]

The only one doing chest-thumping around here is you, lear

Incorrect. Witness 2 pages back where Mr. Happiness was still thumping his chest that 'MSA will STILL have a contract that -9E WISHES they had'.

Other than that, yeah, it's pretty quiet, considering all the chest thumping YOU and many others were doing not so long ago...

lear- you and I can proclaim all we want to about how we need to put it all on the line- our jobs, careers, our liberty, and our homes(jail and lawsuits/fines for illegal strikes). But speak for YOURSELF, and fall on your own sword if you want to.

Thank you for proving my point.

NO ONE wants to be the ones to put their kneck on the line. Management knows that the majority of today's airline pilots are spineless, and they take advantage of it.

If airlines were trying this crap 20 or 30 years ago, they'd have had to back off and give decent contracts or the airline would be burried.

There's a different breed of airline pilot out there today, and they're a piss-poor shadow of their former selves. No wonder we don't engender respect anymore.

It would be the height of irresponsibility for a leadership group to not provide an alternative to a term sheet, which WOULD set rates at new lows (sub-mesa) or an illegal job action which would place people in jail and cost individuals their homes.

Depends. It would only be irresponsible if there were a large demographic ASKING for that alternative. If the vast majority of your pilots were sending in strike ballots and telling their reps 'Not one Red cent', then the NC should have stuck to that.

I don't know what you guys were telling them or what their Wilson Polling numbers were showing, but they were obviously different than the demographic represented here, a la' new Agreement.

Do you have a family? A mortgage?

Yup. Both. 2 kids and a $200k house. I also have other skills to fall back on if my company DID tank after a work stoppage or choose to liquidate. It's called 'being prepared'.

If alpa national wants to band together (read-the well-to-do's, also) and call for a Shutdown of Service, I'll be there, but your expectation that WE protect YOUR industry FOR YOU is HYPOCRITICAL.

No, it's not. It's called SOLIDARITY. We live in a symbiotic professional field, whether people like it or not. When guys bailed Mesa for Freedom and Ornstein's b.s. succeeded when the Mesa pilots folded, management used those new rates against you. Now that you have folded, PCL management will use both Mesa AND your rates agains them.

Witness also all the Mesa bashing over the last several years, most people b*tching about how it was 'dragging the industry down' and they 'should have stood firm'. Everyone seems to understand that their resolve affects not only their OWN airline, but everyone else's over time,,, that is, of course, until it's YOUR 'Yes' vote that dropped the bar, then it's everyone else being 'hypocritical'.

So yes, it is the responsibility of EVERY SINGLE AIRLINE PILOT to hold the bar. Problem is: more and more pilots are saying, "I'm just taking care of me and my family," and screw the rest of the airline world. Then they're surprised when negotiations come back around half a decade later and they're told they won't get much because everyone else's rates are lower. How did they get lower? Oh yeah, because you lowered your rates last time and so the next airline, then the next airline...

No one wants to see the ugly truth that they, too, participated in lowering the bar.

And you can Ki** my working-stiff pilot A** if you want to tell me I did not fight this

I never said YOU didn't fight this. Go back to my first post and read objectively, you'll see where I said it was WRONG for people to try to 'punish' MSA pilots over this and congratulated the few who voted NO.

I didn't make this personal, Mr. Profit did. I'm just clearing up the inaccuracies that exist in what evidently seems to be a common belief about your new pay rates in comparison with PCL.

Classic! Dude has 13+ pending grievances pending at PCL while at the same time he displays his ignorance by trying to convice us that the PCL contract is better than the XJ contract.

What's with the bold type? No need to shout.

How does the number of grievances equate to whether a contract is mathematically superior in terms of overall income versus another?

The only thing you've done is show YOUR ignorance. You could have UAL's pre-bankruptcy contract and still have multiple grievances if management chooses to violate it. Would then, by your reasoning, MSA's contract be better than say United's, just because someone has multiple grievances filed?

Your logic makes NO sense, I suggest you go back and try again.

Lear further claimed that he compared paychecks and schedule summaries with Mesaba pilots over a few brews.....<coughing>...BuII$hist!!!

Oh, I see. You were there and saw it all...

So you're one of those... What a tool.

Only a true FI tool would "Claim" that he compared pay stubs and schedule summaries while sitting at the bar drinking beers with pilots of other airlines. I can just picture the sceen at the bar that evening.......

Mesaba pilots drinking beer on a layover and talking with some ladies and up walks Lear with w-2 and logbooks in hand. Lear says...."hey you guys work for XJ....lets compare" Mesaba pilots look at each other and roll their eyes while cute gals laugh. Mesaba pilots leave with girls and Lear goes up to his room alone and whacks off.

Another Flightinfo genius who knows it all, and how everything happened with someone else.

It wasn't a layover, it was 2 friends of mine who work there and it was pre-arranged in domicile (DTW). Go back a couple years to right after you guys signed your contract and read the big thread that came up about how you guys had caved after all your talk and signed for rates that were within $1 an hour year-for-year of PCL rates.

Maybe then you'll understand how it came about. Until then, since you weren't there, why don't you shut your pie hole? mmmkaaayyy?

 

[screwed_again]

Who wants to bet Lear70 is short??? I think this guy talks so much because is is so short. Its tough being a little man in a big man's world. Sorry Lear70, wear some boots, it gives the illusion of being much taller.

 

[Lear70]

Slam away, I gotta get back to wrenching...

"Wrenching" is an euphemism for masturbation.

So basically, what you're saying, is that you have NOTHING intelligent to say on the subject, no ability to debate with facts, simply sling mud in your anger and frustration.

Wow... what a fun person YOU must be on trips. Maybe you should take an anger management course or something to redicrect some of that pent-up hostility.

 

[YourPilotFriend]

The Mesaba and Pinnacle ASA's are now on the same level, as 9E had a 12-15% advantage before the XJ bankruptcy. Compass is way way higher than both, 30-50% higher.

 

[TAWS]

TAWS,
I like your style. Seeing as you are able to peer into the future, I was wondering; when am I going to upgrade? I'd like to do some planning and would sure love to know when it's coming. The insider info is certainly appreciated.

I see you fly the E170 ............mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm...... Reverend Bedford spoke to me through God last night and informed me that upgrade for you is very near at hand (the right hand - just don't use it for any sinful pleasures in the meantime).
He said Christmas bonus time is just around the corner and you should enjoy the fruits (both of them) which he hath provided. Amen.

 

[saabservant]

The Mesaba and Pinnacle ASA's are now on the same level, as 9E had a 12-15% advantage before the XJ bankruptcy. Compass is way way higher than both, 30-50% higher.

That is a good point, which some, like my friend lear, will use to say that we sold out for growth!!!
Lear, you cannot understand how many senior and junior people here were willing to walk away from the job if imposed upon. Do not expect them to automatically do the same when faced with a reasonable alternative, in an extremely hostile and unfavorable environment.
Compared to the (lack of) solidarity and resolve shown by the nwa group, we did pretty well. They wish they had a labor coalition like ours.

 

[PCL_128]

Who wants to bet Lear70 is short???

I'll take that bet. Pay up.

 

[screwed_again]

So basically, what you're saying, is that you have NOTHING intelligent to say on the subject, no ability to debate with facts, simply sling mud in your anger and frustration.

Wow... what a fun person YOU must be on trips. Maybe you should take an anger management course or something to redicrect some of that pent-up hostility.

Aren't you at Airtan now??? Why are you here, on the regional boards? Why don't you tell the other LCC guys how much more you make at AT? This is a dead horse.

Let's see your former 9E co-workers fall on their swords when NWA shifts the 50 seaters over to XJ. Until then STFU.

And one more thing, stop bragging about how many words you type in a minute, or how much cash you made over at 9E and the fact flying is a "pat-time" job for you. We are all happy you have a house worth $200K, work on cars as a hobby, had interviews at every major before 9/11. Nobody cares.

Has anyone ever run into "that guy" at a bar who sits there and brags about how much cash, toys etc. they have; trying to impress everyone. That's the guy who really broke and has 10 credit cards maxed. If you truely "have it," you don't brag about it. Lear70, you don't have it.

 

[TurboAWD]

While I don't agree with Lear on everything, I don't think he was trying to impress anyone. $200k is a very cheap house these days, and we all know what everyone else makes in this industry.

What he said about MESA is spot on, however. Although they were not in CH11, they did have Freedom breathing down their necks. They sign a crap contract and everyone says they brought the industry down (they did). Over that last several years many (although not all) XJ pilots have looked down on 9E pilots, because of their contract (signed under extreeme pressure). XJ signs a contract (not as bad as Mesa, admittedly), and it's all "you have to do what's best for you".

I hope you all realize how important it is to support other airlines. Show up at the picketing events. XJ (or anyone else for that matter) guys want better in your next contract? Well then support 9E now. Come to the MEM picketing event on the 5th of DEC.

Turbo

 

[ImbracableCrunk]

I hope you all realize how important it is to support other airlines. Show up at the picketing events. XJ (or anyone else for that matter) guys want better in your next contract? Well then support 9E now. Come to the MEM picketing event on the 5th of DEC.

Turbo

Good call!

 

[redflyer65]

Well Said!!

 

[profit]

Wow. You ASSume an awful lot, but since you didn't ask I'm going to go easy on you.

I was flying for a 121 Supplemental Freight operator (Express One) furloughed off the 727 just prior to 9/11, I had a 2nd UAL interview lined up and my 1st DAL interview but needed somewhere to work until they came up. Netjets offered the job but I had already flown fractional for Flexjet and they only thing I HADN'T done was 121 flag passenger operations, so I went with PCL, as they promissed lots of street CA hiring behind me. Then 9/11 happened and NO ONE was hiring for a while.

Oh, by the way, I'm 35 and currently an F/O at airTran, but thanks for the heads up on the 727 jobs. There weren't any for a long while then the ones that WERE available were all expat gigs or had very few (if any) guaranteed days at home. No, thanks.

If you will actually READ the judge's ruling, in both cases, the judges SPECIFICALLY avoid any discussion of the RLA. In both cases, the judges treat the employees as creditors and as such, the company has automatic protection from them and can restructure their contracts as they see fit.

This was also the first time in history (speaking in general terms of the last 3-4 years) that right to strike under bankruptcy was ever tested. We lost. That doesn't mean we would automatically lose once the company came OUT of bankruptcy. Different set of circumstances, as MSA could no longer consider its employees 'creditors' and claim a protected status under bankruptcy law.

I hadn't failed to notice, I have over a dozen pending grievances still at PCL. I'm well aware of the current status of the NMB. HOWEVER, the NMB must follow established RLA wording to the letter. Contracts are open to interpretation, most the RLA is not and has established case history for many decades and that wording would have to be re-written and new case history established in order for the NMB to require the pilots to return to work.


If you don't have the balls to act on all the chest thumping that was going on here for the last year +, then I don't want to hear your b*tching.


5% for Saab rates, how much of a cut for those CRJ's you're supposed to be getting? How much do you lose in COLA increases every year? How much in lost COLA and reduction from current book rates cumulative by the ammendable date? My bet is cumulative over the entire term it's something of a 15-18% loss over current book.


Suuuurrrrrre. If you believe you'll ever see more than 5 cents on the dollar into your pocket, you need to put down the crack pipe.

The ALPA spin team is evidently still alive and well...

Slam away, I gotta get back to wrenching...

I really wasn't interested in your entire history, but thanks for the update. I am familiar with the scum-bag operation that is Express One. I am aware that you could have gotten hired and upgraded at Capitol Cargo within a very short period in the last few years.

When they hired you at AirTran, they told you upgrade would happen in 2 years or less right? Good luck..

I actually DID read the judges rulings. In the Mesaba case Judge Kishel generally found a way to work around existing law in order to "save poor Mesaba, the victim of Northwest". Kishel is an idiot. And the reason he didn't talk much about the RLA is because he has very little knowledge of it. You are right, when Mesaba exits bankruptcy in the spring or summer, the BK court stops being the ruling body. But listen, NWA and MAIR and Mesaba (working in concert but pretending to be adversaries) have hired lots of very expensive lawyers. If the situation you propose were to happen, the legal battle would occur well before exiting bankruptcy.

With regards to the NMB and the RLA, you might want to talk to a real lawyer. And if you have any experience in law, you would know that ANYTHING under the sun can be misinterpreted or re-interpreted. Under Republican NMB apointees, you can bet the unions are screwed. And if it made it to the NMB, they would allow for the beginning of new section 6 negotiations which could drag on for YEARS. Just take a look at ASA.

There was a lot of chest thumping. But was it from 700-900 Mesaba pilots? Or was it about 20. They are still mad, and they have that right. You, however, do not.

With respect to 15-18%, you are way off. Period. We did the analysis.

And if you think Mesaba pilots are dumb for thinking they would only get 5 cents on the dollar exiting bankruptcy, does that mean you think Goldman Sachs just threw their money away? Are you an expert in this field too? I think there are quite a few facts about the corporate structure of MAIR and Mesaba you are ignorant of, and this would be proof.

 

[Lear70]

I really wasn't interested in your entire history, but thanks for the update.

You ASSumed something that was incorrect and asked me a direct question.

You got a direct answer. It happened to slam your nose in a door where it didn't belong, sorry you were wrong about my background.

I am familiar with the scum-bag operation that is Express One. I am aware that you could have gotten hired and upgraded at Capitol Cargo within a very short period in the last few years.

WAS. Express One went out of business just after December '01. It was purchased by some little operator in FL who didn't act in time to keep the 727's on certificate and now it's pretty worthless. That's probably the EOI you're referring to, as there are roughly a dozen of us at AAI and a few dozen others scattered throughout the majors. Hardly 'Scumbag', but if you insist.

When they hired you at AirTran, they told you upgrade would happen in 2 years or less right? Good luck..

Oh yeah, they did, and we didn't listen. We did the math ourselves and it's looking between 3 and 3 1/2 with the changed delivery schedule. Glad you're interested, thanks for the concern.

I actually DID read the judges rulings. In the Mesaba case Judge Kishel generally found a way to work around existing law in order to "save poor Mesaba, the victim of Northwest". Kishel is an idiot. And the reason he didn't talk much about the RLA is because he has very little knowledge of it. You are right, when Mesaba exits bankruptcy in the spring or summer, the BK court stops being the ruling body. But listen, NWA and MAIR and Mesaba (working in concert but pretending to be adversaries) have hired lots of very expensive lawyers. If the situation you propose were to happen, the legal battle would occur well before exiting bankruptcy.

That's certainly your opinion.

They always have 'lots of very expensive lawyers', but it would be hard for them to fight the legal battle before the work action begins (actually impossible, legally, but you obviously know all about that, don't you, counselor?)

With regards to the NMB and the RLA, you might want to talk to a real lawyer.

Ditto.

And if you have any experience in law, you would know that ANYTHING under the sun can be misinterpreted or re-interpreted.

Not by the NMB. It would take a judicial action, the NMB doesn't have that authority. If YOU had any experience in law, or in the grievance process, you'd understand that.

Under Republican NMB apointees, you can bet the unions are screwed. And if it made it to the NMB, they would allow for the beginning of new section 6 negotiations which could drag on for YEARS. Just take a look at ASA.

Oh, so you have a crystal ball now, too?

Can you tell me how the UAir / DAL merger thing is going to work out? I'd really like to know for planning my stock purchases, thanks.

There was a lot of chest thumping. But was it from 700-900 Mesaba pilots? Or was it about 20. They are still mad, and they have that right. You, however, do not.

Certainly, I do. See above. If you still don't understand the relationship between carriers, contracts, and negotiations, then I simply won't argue anymore; it's like beating your head against the wall.

With respect to 15-18%, you are way off. Period. We did the analysis.

Post some numbers then, show me where I'm wrong. IN WRITING, with excerpts from the NEW contract and moving forward each year for each seat, and then combine them for a grand total of % difference (remember, COLA is cumulative on the previous year, not the 1st year of the DOS).

I'm a betting man, I'll bet you a c-note it's well over the 10% mark and closer into the mid-teens as I said before.

And if you think Mesaba pilots are dumb for thinking they would only get 5 cents on the dollar exiting bankruptcy, does that mean you think Goldman Sachs just threw their money away? Are you an expert in this field too? I think there are quite a few facts about the corporate structure of MAIR and Mesaba you are ignorant of, and this would be proof.

Proof? Of what? That you can't debate competently? That you don't understand that you can't use a future 'possibility' as 'proof' of anything one way or another?

I didn't say Goldman Sachs just threw their money away, I simply said the MSA pilots would be lucky to see very much of it. If you'd actually READ what I wrote instead of just firing away, you'd see that.

Aren't you at Airtan now??? Why are you here, on the regional boards? Why don't you tell the other LCC guys how much more you make at AT? This is a dead horse.

'Cause my 1st year pay at AAI is pretty lame... Hope to change that with the new contract, time will tell.

Incidentally, I don't post in the regionals forum much anymore until someone PM's me and tells me something interesting worth reading is over here. This one certainly qualifies, as I watched this play out (and walked the picket lines with MSA pilots during the last negotiations as well), and was disappointed to hear the news.

I also don't follow much of the CAL, SWA, UAir, or any of the other major's threads either... Did you have a point?

I'll take that bet. Pay up.

You should have made him bet money FIRST!

 

[CubanSmoker]

I wish you guys would just get it over with and have sex...

 

[XJPilot547]

I nominate CubanSmoker for President.