Thank-you Mesaba

[YourPilotFriend]

Voting No would have resulted in a great loss of pay. Ultimately, the airline would be working under this contract. Simply put, you either accept it or quit. If enough people quit, and they can't find people to cover the flying, wages will go up.

 

[xjhawk]

lets see, ia m a three to four year FO on teh saab and with the new contract will be making 32 and some change........now.....oh and did i mention that my work rules are a lot better than most? Did i also mention our min day is the best in the red tail fleet?

And to those of you who said we sold out, do you know how badly our hands are tied in the courts? We cannot legally strike, if we do not agree to something.....and to those of you who know the specifics of this deal, its really not that bad.....it sucks yes, since the bankruptcy is a sham......but in the courts, in todays corporate bias system, we have no choice. yes, we could all walk off the job, but i am not going to asa or skywest and make 19 an hour, thats not paying my morgage......will you help us all pay our morgage? What will you do when this happens to you? From what i hear is that ALPA said they would back all those Eastern guys and look what happened to them! Whne my house burns down, i do not stay in it....as with this company, its burning down and many are leaving, and most are trying. I feel that i can live with this for the next few years til something better comes along.......my choice and its my choice, that i will stay in the industry until i can get a better airline job, period. Now if you want to say something to me, do it in the terminal, ia m like any MEsaba pilot......and we are good people stuck in a bad situation......and making the best of it. Now shut up and quit your job....if you are shouting the loudest in these forums....that will send a message that you are strong.......do it, just quit....do what you are tellign us to do. see where you will be, what your options are.

 

[saabservant]

There were good reasons to vote on this either way.
Some felt an extreme opposition to the pohlad/steenland/foley/spanjers bankruptcy fraud was in order, and wanted to see the appeals of the 1113c and strike injunction go forward.

Others looked at the wage recovery(current book by year 4), raises beyond amendable date(unprecedented), and the 14.2 million dollar claim, and the health care terms in writing(an improvement) and saw that pushing the legal envelope further was not worth the risk. They said ". I am mad, but can live with this".

Yes, the company came to our negotiators at imposition deadline and gave back much of their demands in exchange for duration. We could have rolled the dice and dared them to impose, but these people, and the MEC are OBLIGATED to try for a deal that will preserve jobs while maintaining industry standards. You are free to pound your chest and yell NO for yourself, but the MEC and NC are not. The vote, in the end, is YOURS.

Reality: we won two out of four court hearings (Two 1113c hearings, a district court appeal, and a strike injunction hearing). The courts are barely more respectful of us than is mgmt. It is a highly biased environment. Judge Kishel despises the unions, that is clear.
If you want to really concern yourself, get our job protection(scope), minimum day, trip guarantee, short and long-term disability, and 401K provisions into YOUR next contract.

Myself, I voted "no", and am trying to get out, as there is no future here, unless you are very senior. Too many who can't or won't get out.
But any Mesaba pilot can hold his/her head high, and be proud of our mec and negotiators.

Thanks for the support from many, others should save their breath and support the Comair pilots, who are next. Good Luck Comair, give them hell!!

 

[timmay]

lets see, ia m a three to four year FO on teh saab and with the new contract will be making 32 and some change........now.....oh and did i mention that my work rules are a lot better than most? Did i also mention our min day is the best in the red tail fleet?

And to those of you who said we sold out, do you know how badly our hands are tied in the courts? We cannot legally strike, if we do not agree to something.....and to those of you who know the specifics of this deal, its really not that bad.....it sucks yes, since the bankruptcy is a sham......but in the courts, in todays corporate bias system, we have no choice. yes, we could all walk off the job, but i am not going to asa or skywest and make 19 an hour, thats not paying my morgage......will you help us all pay our morgage? What will you do when this happens to you? From what i hear is that ALPA said they would back all those Eastern guys and look what happened to them! Whne my house burns down, i do not stay in it....as with this company, its burning down and many are leaving, and most are trying. I feel that i can live with this for the next few years til something better comes along.......my choice and its my choice, that i will stay in the industry until i can get a better airline job, period. Now if you want to say something to me, do it in the terminal, ia m like any MEsaba pilot......and we are good people stuck in a bad situation......and making the best of it. Now shut up and quit your job....if you are shouting the loudest in these forums....that will send a message that you are strong.......do it, just quit....do what you are tellign us to do. see where you will be, what your options are.

That is the reason airline pilots are doomed to low wages. What happens when you get a job at a major and management tries to stick you with a crappy contract? Where will you go then? All these contracts have outside implications and until somebody walks there will be no changing the downward spiral. But hey enjoy that 32 dollars per hour, where I live that wont support a family.

 

[PCL_128]

Wow....I didn't know we had any pu$$y wimps in Detroit.

Trust me, he represents a very small minority. If he walked into the DTW crew room and said the same thing in front of the other DTW pilots, then he'd be lucky if he made it out the door alive. :uzi:

 

[TAWS]

What does ALPA do with 2% anyway? Wouldn't they pay something substantial to a striking pilot group? If not, get rid of them, turn over a new leaf and move forward.
Regardless of how/why you voted, ALPA won NOTHING with this and every other contract it has signed off on recently. Time to get rid of the leach!

 

[TurboAWD]

Trust me, he represents a very small minority. If he walked into the DTW crew room and said the same thing in front of the other DTW pilots, then he'd be lucky if he made it out the door alive. :uzi:

That's for sure. When I went up there for the picketing event, I was very impressed by the turnout and the attitude.


What guys like him need to learn is what happens at one airline effects all the other pilot groups as well. Even if he goes from 9E to UPS or FEDEX, a bad contract here will help pull down future wages and lifestyle.

I'll see you two in MEM....

Turbo

 

[Detroitpilot22]

Trust me, he represents a very small minority. If he walked into the DTW crew room and said the same thing in front of the other DTW pilots, then he'd be lucky if he made it out the door alive. :uzi:

Oh so you would kill a coworker just because of his or mayne her opinion?? Awesome man! I pay my 2% just like everyone else so I can have an opinion

 

[HelloNewman]

Trust me, he represents a very small minority. If he walked into the DTW crew room and said the same thing in front of the other DTW pilots, then he'd be lucky if he made it out the door alive. :uzi:

People wonder why we don't want a union at SkyWest. That ladies and gentlemen is a big reason right there.

 

[dvmthwsvan]

just find the next time DMB is rolling through Chi-town and you will find TNT there in the front row

Hey dont bring me into this

Dave

 

[PCL_128]

Oh so you would kill a coworker just because of his or mayne her opinion?? Awesome man! I pay my 2% just like everyone else so I can have an opinion

Kill? It was a figure of speech. I've told you many times that you can always call me or the other reps and tell us what your thoughts are. I will always listen to them and treat you with respect, even though I most likely won't agree with you. I'm sure you would agree that your opinion stated in this thread is of an extremely small minority of the DTW pilot group, wouldn't you?

 

[CrownandCoke]

Kill? It was a figure of speech. I've told you many times that you can always call me or the other reps and tell us what your thoughts are. I will always listen to them and treat you with respect, even though I most likely won't agree with you. I'm sure you would agree that your opinion stated in this thread is of an extremely small minority of the DTW pilot group, wouldn't you?

it's definitely in the minority of all PCL pilots.

 

[Lear70]

Oh so you would kill a coworker just because of his or mayne her opinion?? Awesome man! I pay my 2% just like everyone else so I can have an opinion

No, not kill... You know as well as I do that he was exaggerating.

However, the guys in the crew room telling you where to shove it and your Captain for the rest of the month ensuring that you throw the gear, work the radios, and do no flying as punishment would certainly be in order for such a pu*sy wimp attitude as yours.

Yes, I am intimately familiar with your FOM; refer to the lovely section that says, 'The Captain is under no obligation, nor should the first officer expect, to swap flying every other leg'.

Attitudes such as yours are why this profession is most certainly doomed to a continual downward slide until it's not worth working at anymore. Once you make it to a 'Major', I'm sure you'll grow a pair, right?

I doubt it.

That is the reason airline pilots are doomed to low wages. What happens when you get a job at a major and management tries to stick you with a crappy contract? Where will you go then? All these contracts have outside implications and until somebody walks there will be no changing the downward spiral. But hey enjoy that 32 dollars per hour, where I live that wont support a family.

Bingo. Which is why I and many of my coworkers I know are developing outside businesses / careers and making this something we do to scratch our flying itch. The YES voters keep dragging it all down, no one wants to make a stand, and management laughs all the way to the bank.

Hell, my $43 an hour 1st year pay doesn't support a family, airTran is my part-time job; I drop as many days as possible to make REAL MONEY elsewhere, give my opinion on contract needs to my rep, and wait to vote in something LIVABLE here. Can't IMAGINE trying to survive on even less...

But any Mesaba pilot can hold his/her head high, and be proud of our mec and negotiators.

I wouldn't go that far... YOU can hold your head up high if you voted NO. If you voted YES after the chest-pounding that was going on here for the last year+, then you pretty much gotta eat your words. There's not that much to be proud OF.

Do the snap-back provisions in 4 years to current wages ALSO include COLA increases at the same time? No? that means in 4 years you'll be making what you do now, NOT ADJUSTED for 4 year's worth of inflation. At 3% per year that's around 13%, give or take. That's what most people don't understand, if your wage snap-backs don't adjust for increases in equivalent cost of living (inflation), then you're STILL working for less all the way around.

If you do this every contract, you get contracts that do nothing but take you BACK to what you were working for by the time they are amendable and make NO forward progression.

That said, no one else has the right to bash you for it or to try to deny jumpseats or any other such nonsense. 68% of you said you could live with this; that's your decision to make, even if many of us feel it was the wrong one, and we have no right to penalize you in some way for it, but this is a message board and if I want to say I believe it was the wrong choice, I have that right as well.

To the 32% of you that voted NO, good for you, I'm proud of your resolve and am sad that it wasn't shared by more of your coworkers. I wish there was a way to publicly verify your NO vote, would make a great bag sticker,,,

 

[KaptainKarl]

best in the red tail fleet

Something to be proud of.

Funniest thing I've read in awhile.

KMOX:
I'm going to send you a x-mas present. A set of ceramic "Flightinfo balls".

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

 

[EL10]

Do the snap-back provisions in 4 years to current wages ALSO include COLA increases at the same time? No? that means in 4 years you'll be making what you do now, NOT ADJUSTED for 4 year's worth of inflation. At 3% per year that's around 13%, give or take. That's what most people don't understand, if your wage snap-backs don't adjust for increases in equivalent cost of living (inflation), then you're STILL working for less all the way around.

Sure it’s a bad deal to be in. If you refuse to look at what could have happened you’re off the mark. The imposed terms would have dragged the industry even lower. XJ will still have a contact that 9E hopes to get. If you think that the imposed terms which would be in place for a least a year while the courts fight it out would not do more damage to PCL, ASA, CMR, and TSA you are mistaken. So if this is all about pulling people down, they bottomed it out. (with hands tied) A lot easier now that the bottom has flattened out for the others to climb back up.

 

[TurboAWD]

People wonder why we don't want a union at SkyWest. That ladies and gentlemen is a big reason right there.

If the typical SkyWest pilot has that dumb attitude regarding compensation and work rules... well they deserve a blanket party too.

How's that 70+ seat pay rate coming?

Turbo

 

[kmox29]

KMOX:
I'm going to send you a x-mas present. A set of ceramic "Flightinfo balls".

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

I'll hang them from my Charlie Brown Christmas tree.

 

[Lear70]

Sure it’s a bad deal to be in. If you refuse to look at what could have happened you’re off the mark. The imposed terms would have dragged the industry even lower.

But only until the company exited bankruptcy. After that you would be free to engage in self-help immediately without going to the NMB as you would be working under imposed work rules, NOT a contract.

But your MEC probably didn't make that point abundantly clear during the road shows, so I'm not surprised you fail to mention it.

XJ will still have a contact that 9E hopes to get.

BBBWWWWAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

ROFLMFAO !!

When I was a 9E I thought your contract was GARBAGE. I looked at it and, from my standpoint on 5th yr CRJ CA rates, even with your work rules compared to what I was already flying, your paycheck was only 3-5% more than mine.

AND THAT WAS THEN !!!

Under your new rules your pilots will make substantially less, INCLUDING WORK RULES, than a -9E pilot of the same seniority. EVEN WHEN (IF) you guys get CRJ's, your work rules added to the cut rates won't top PCL year for year. If the MEC told you differently, they blatantly lied.

If you think that the imposed terms which would be in place for a least a year while the courts fight it out would not do more damage to PCL, ASA, CMR, and TSA you are mistaken.

That's your opinion.

My opinion is that you're completely wrong and that, by MSA pilots ACCEPTING these new rates, it is now MUCH worse in negotiations than some imposed wage cut that can be challenged the moment MSA steps out of bankruptcy. At least THEN the PCL MEC could argue to the company that the MSA rates shouldn't be considered because they aren't agreed wages. Now, they can't do that, and have to take your cuts into consideration...

So if this is all about pulling people down, they bottomed it out. (with hands tied) A lot easier now that the bottom has flattened out for the others to climb back up.

What the fu*k are you SMOKING??!!

That's NOT how negotiations work. Do you have even the SLIGHTEST clue what you're talking about ??!!

Does anyone else understand that last statement? Something about now that we know where the bottom is, it's somehow EASIER for everyone else to climb above it? Didn't you say something about your new contract (concessions) being better than current book at -9E, but now you say this new contract is the bottom?

Which is it?

WTF?

 

[PCL_128]

But only until the company exited bankruptcy. After that you would be free to engage in self-help immediately without going to the NMB as you would be working under imposed work rules, NOT a contract.

That's yet another untested legal theory. We don't know what a judge would have done in that case. Based on recent history, I think the unfortunate truth is that a judge most likely would have ordered the pilots back to work.

Back the PAC!!!!!!!

 

[xjhawk]

oh oh, watch out! crew scheduling is watching you! I think they will Jr man you if they catch you on line in this forum! ha ha.....hi j......

 

[Lear70]

That's yet another untested legal theory. We don't know what a judge would have done in that case. Based on recent history, I think the unfortunate truth is that a judge most likely would have ordered the pilots back to work.

Back the PAC!!!!!!!

I don't think I necessarily agree with you.

The company would not have access to the same judge that is presiding over their bankruptcy. They would have to take their case before a labor judge.

The problem we've had from the beginning of this process is that the judges involved knew very little of labor law and the reality of the RLA as it applies to aviation (very different than other transportation fields or even, say, schoolteachers for that matter).

The RLA is VERY clear on what happens when you're forced to work outside of your Agreeement, and they would actually have to go in and change some basic tenants of the RLA itself to require them to continue working without a contract in forced conditions.

I don't believe a labor law judge familiar with the RLA would have the cajones to make that kind of call...

Just my opinion. Would have appreciated seeing that theory tested however, since it would be the last defense against the slow demise of this once-honorable (and livably lucrative) profession.

 

[PCL_128]

I don't think I necessarily agree with you.

Of course not, but that's nothing new.

I don't believe a labor law judge familiar with the RLA would have the cajones to make that kind of call...

Maybe, maybe not. It's all politics. I don't believe for a second that most judges are doing their job and actually applying the law as it's clearly written. I think most of them are skewing the law towards their own personal political beliefs. If you have the misfortune of ending up with the wrong judge, then you're screwed, and a very bad legal precedent will be set. It's easy for judges to go their own way when there's no precedent, but after some crazy judge makes a ruling that sets new precedent, then most judges won't rule the other way in the future.

Just my opinion. Would have appreciated seeing that theory tested however

That's easy to say when it's not your career that's being used as the testing vehicle.

 

[Lear70]

Of course not, but that's nothing new.

True dat...

That's easy to say when it's not your career that's being used as the testing vehicle.

True dat, too.

Was a lose-lose either way, I just have the tendency to say fukidol, and go for it, but I have a lot of other skills to fall back on if it were to go badly and a lot of other people haven't had the foresight to develop anything else.

Here is yet another excellent example of why, as pilots, we need to have backup plans, otherwise we will always lose the negotiating game. Management knows we're too lazy, apathetic, or ignorant to start over again, doing something ELSE if absolutely necessary.

 

[TAWS]

I find it funny when any of you talk about snapbacks - they aren't coming EVER!!! Do you know why? Because mngt is SMARTER THAN YOU!! They've proven it yet again with this TA!

When it comes time for raises/snapbacks, a new crisis will appear "a la mesaba" and here you'll go again!

The upside of this TA will never materialize.

 

[redflyer65]

I have a feeling that TAWS is right. Mesaba and the NC tried their best to polish this turd until it shined, but in the end, it's still a big fat steaming pile. Management will see the snap backs coming and come up with some 'other' disaster that will need to be handled. They'll say 'greive it' and continue to operate as they see fit. I think 68% of you were sold a fraudulent bill of goods. Just like the bankruptcy, and just like the strike roadshows in '04. (I was there and heard the presentations)

 

[profit]

I don't think I necessarily agree with you.

The company would not have access to the same judge that is presiding over their bankruptcy. They would have to take their case before a labor judge.

The RLA is VERY clear on what happens when you're forced to work outside of your Agreeement, and they would actually have to go in and change some basic tenants of the RLA itself to require them to continue working without a contract in forced conditions.

I don't believe a labor law judge familiar with the RLA would have the cajones to make that kind of call...

Just my opinion. Would have appreciated seeing that theory tested however, since it would be the last defense against the slow demise of this once-honorable (and livably lucrative) profession.

OK GENIUS. What exactly is a "labor judge"? Is he the guy that rules in "labor court"?

Secondly, the judge in the Mesaba case enjoined them from striking. How much more clear do you need that to be? It doesn't matter what your opinion of the RLA is. For the Mesaba pilots to strike, they would have to wait somewhere around 6 months to win an appeal (under an imposed contract).

That's right. This is all your opinion, not really anything based on real fact. And if you are so high and f$%#ing mighty, why in the WORLD did you decide to accept the offer of employment at PNCL? Or might you be an enormous hypocrite?

 

[TheJCNIs]

BBBWWWWAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

ROFLMFAO !!

When I was a 9E I thought your contract was GARBAGE. I looked at it and, from my standpoint on 5th yr CRJ CA rates, even with your work rules compared to what I was already flying, your paycheck was only 3-5% more than mine.

AND THAT WAS THEN !!!

Under your new rules your pilots will make substantially less, INCLUDING WORK RULES, than a -9E pilot of the same seniority. EVEN WHEN (IF) you guys get CRJ's, your work rules added to the cut rates won't top PCL year for year. If the MEC told you differently, they blatantly lied.

Lear 70

Are you F...ing kidding me. That the problem with comparing only pay rates. We 9E is working 15 mins free on every leg and mesaba is getting block or better on every leg this difference alone is more than 3-5%. Not to mention our min day, the fact if a turn cx we dont have to ask our self if it was WX or MX to get paid. I would be willing to compare our new POS to any dumba$$ on here that keeps saying the bar is so low. Pay is one thing but work rules is where the money is.

 

[turbinesurgeon]

Are you F...ing kidding me. That the problem with comparing only pay rates. We 9E is working 15 mins free on every leg and mesaba is getting block or better on every leg this difference alone is more than 3-5%. Not to mention our min day, the fact if a turn cx we dont have to ask our self if it was WX or MX to get paid. I would be willing to compare our new POS to any dumba$$ on here that keeps saying the bar is so low. Pay is one thing but work rules is where the money is.[/quote]


That is absolutly right. I was furloughed from XJ and went over to QX and suprisingly took a pay cut even though I am at work more at QX. Good work work rules mean everything, hourly rates are secondary.

 

[PCL_128]

We 9E is working 15 mins free on every leg and mesaba is getting block or better on every leg this difference alone is more than 3-5%.

We don't work 15 mins for free on every leg. It's a rarity that we overblock at all. Most of the trip-values are inflated by 20-30 minutes. ALPA's E & FA department determined that we would gain at most 1-2% by going to a block-or-better system. Of course, we want that 1-2% and will not accept a contract without block-or-better, but it's not as big a difference as everyone thinks it is.

 

[oceandude]

When are you morons going to get it?? ALL REGIONALS SUCK!