Thank-you Mesaba

[Lear70]

We don't work 15 mins for free on every leg. It's a rarity that we overblock at all. Most of the trip-values are inflated by 20-30 minutes. ALPA's E & FA department determined that we would gain at most 1-2% by going to a block-or-better system. Of course, we want that 1-2% and will not accept a contract without block-or-better, but it's not as big a difference as everyone thinks it is.

BINGO!

Ditto on MSA's 4 hour min day - wtf cares? At PCL it's almost impossible to find a trip that doesn't block more than 4 hours in a day... EVER.

In fact, that's one of the big reasons I left DTW for MEM - the scarcity of lines that started after 10 in the morning and ended before 6 p.m. The trips at 9E are constructed so tight that you're often blocking 6-7 hours a day AVERAGE.

2 of your pilots sat down with me over a couple beers and went over my schedule and paycheck for a 2 month period. They couldn't believe it; applying MSA CRJ rates AND work rules to my flying line yielded only a 2.3% difference in pay.

Really raised the bar there, didn't ya'? Now that you have taken a pay CUT from those rates, you will be well below what a 9E pilot will make.

Sorry you don't like that little dose of reality...

I would be willing to compare our new POS to any dumba$$ on here that keeps saying the bar is so low. Pay is one thing but work rules is where the money is.

Bring it on. Not that it will help you now to realize how little your contract gives you over the other regionals. Everyone works so much that it's difficult to realize large differences from work rules alone.

OK GENIUS. What exactly is a "labor judge"? Is he the guy that rules in "labor court"?

Well, my dear Mensa Scholar, since you don't understand the difference between a bankruptcy judge and a judge who is appointed to oversee labor disputes that either the NMB can't decide on or cases a particular union chooses to attempt to bypass the normal grievance channels (force majeure), you might want to avoid posting at all.

Secondly, the judge in the Mesaba case enjoined them from striking. How much more clear do you need that to be?

Because MESABA IS IN BANKRUPTCY! Once Mesaba exits bankruptcy, they are no longer protected by bankruptcy law and NO LONGER UNDER THE JURISDICTION OF THE BANKRUPTCY JUDGE.

How much more clear do YOU need that to be? Getting the picture yet?

It doesn't matter what your opinion of the RLA is. For the Mesaba pilots to strike, they would have to wait somewhere around 6 months to win an appeal (under an imposed contract).

Incorrect. Period. That is the waiting period for an appeal while Mesaba is still in bankruptcy.

Once MSA exits bankruptcy, IF you were working without a signed contract and under imposed conditions, per the RLA, you would be free to strike IMMEDIATELY.

This is not an opinion, THAT IS A STATEMENT OF FACT. I suggest you check your sources of information, I'm quite certain of the validity of mine.

At that point, Mesaba would have to seek an injunction FROM THE NMB (hint: not the bankruptcy judge), to make the pilots go back to work. The NMB would refuse on point of RLA law. It would then go to the judicial system (hint: not the bankruptcy judge), for a ruling by a judge specifically appointed to oversee RLA issues (hint: not the bankruptcy judge).

The big question mark is how that judge would rule.

Get it yet?

That's right. This is all your opinion, not really anything based on real fact.

Incorrect. See above. Consult ALPA. Come back with better information.

And if you are so high and f$%#ing mighty, why in the WORLD did you decide to accept the offer of employment at PNCL? Or might you be an enormous hypocrite?

Hmmmm,,, that's called getting furloughed from the left seat of a 727 and accepting a street Captain position into the CRJ. Wouldn't have gone otherwise and almost went to Netjets instead (should have in retrospect).

What was that about being a hypocrite?

What an a*shole...

 

[8HourPilot]

TAWS,
I like your style. Seeing as you are able to peer into the future, I was wondering; when am I going to upgrade? I'd like to do some planning and would sure love to know when it's coming. The insider info is certainly appreciated.

I find it funny when any of you talk about snapbacks - they aren't coming EVER!!! Do you know why? Because mngt is SMARTER THAN YOU!! They've proven it yet again with this TA!

When it comes time for raises/snapbacks, a new crisis will appear "a la mesaba" and here you'll go again!

The upside of this TA will never materialize.

 

[ImbracableCrunk]

O! The Inanity!

Double trouble!

 

[ImbracableCrunk]

O! The Inanity!

When are you morons going to get it?? ALL REGIONALS SUCK!

Awww, man! Why didn't you tell me this earlier!?!? I would have just skipped the regionals and gone to United 747 Captain school!

I nominate that post for Inane Post of the Day.

 

[IamGumbyDammit]

When are you morons going to get it?? ALL REGIONALS SUCK!

Like arguing who has the best house in the mobile home park.

 

[CrownandCoke]

Lear has to be my favorite poster on this board...

 

[profit]

BINGO!

Well, my dear Mensa Scholar, since you don't understand the difference between a bankruptcy judge and a judge who is appointed to oversee labor disputes that either the NMB can't decide on or cases a particular union chooses to attempt to bypass the normal grievance channels (force majeure), you might want to avoid posting at all.

Because MESABA IS IN BANKRUPTCY! Once Mesaba exits bankruptcy, they are no longer protected by bankruptcy law and NO LONGER UNDER THE JURISDICTION OF THE BANKRUPTCY JUDGE.

How much more clear do YOU need that to be? Getting the picture yet?

Incorrect. Period. That is the waiting period for an appeal while Mesaba is still in bankruptcy.

Once MSA exits bankruptcy, IF you were working without a signed contract and under imposed conditions, per the RLA, you would be free to strike IMMEDIATELY.

This is not an opinion, THAT IS A STATEMENT OF FACT. I suggest you check your sources of information, I'm quite certain of the validity of mine.

At that point, Mesaba would have to seek an injunction FROM THE NMB (hint: not the bankruptcy judge), to make the pilots go back to work. The NMB would refuse on point of RLA law. It would then go to the judicial system (hint: not the bankruptcy judge), for a ruling by a judge specifically appointed to oversee RLA issues (hint: not the bankruptcy judge).

The big question mark is how that judge would rule.

Incorrect. See above. Consult ALPA. Come back with better information.

Hmmmm,,, that's called getting furloughed from the left seat of a 727 and accepting a street Captain position into the CRJ. Wouldn't have gone otherwise and almost went to Netjets instead (should have in retrospect).

What was that about being a hypocrite?

What an a*shole...

Cool, then our feelings are mutual.

Why would someone qualified as a 727 capt. go to PNCL instead of taking another 727 capt. job? Are you not highly qualified for other jobs? (because he is an idiot) I know of a few cargo companies in need of current qualified 727 capts. and could make about 90+k a year. And have more days off than PNCL. By the way, you sure do have a lot of posts on this webboard. Maybe its time to grow up and have a real life.

While partially correct on your interpretation of law, you are still missing the points here.

The issue of striking has never been tested. Each and every time the company will make a plea for an injunction. And like it happened in both the NWA FA case and the Mesaba case, the judges have ruled in favor of the company. So there is no "automatic right".

As for the company seeking an injunction from the NMB, maybe you have failed to notice that 2 of the 3 members of the NMB are Republicans, one who used to be a lobbyist for NWA. So they are going to support the pilots' struggle? Riiighhhhtt.

And what you are suggesting is for the Mesaba pilots to wait it out, let the company exit from bankruptcy, battle in the courts for another year or so. ALL UNDER AN IMPOSED contract. The difference between imposed and agreed contracts is a couple of percent of cost savings under a 49 saab fleet. The real savings is 5% in contract rates. But the big difference between imposed and agreed is a 14.2 Million dollar claim for the pilots.

Seeing as how the PNCL claim was purchased by Goldman Sachs at 40 cents on the dollar, Mesaba pilots have a decent chance at getting a lot if not all of their money back (depending on seat and aircraft). How does that compare with the concessions taken by the NWA pilots?

 

[8HourPilot]

Wait for it............

 

[saabservant]

Hey, Lear 70: Are you really saying mesaba's four-hour min.day is worthless?
Last week, I did a three-day that blocked only SEVEN hours, but paid TWELVE due to the min. day.
Our negotiators estimate this provision adds about 3% to our w-2 earnings per year, and I know it has paid off well for me.
Thus our groups insistence of NO DEAL if it stripped min.day.

By the way, while you are so busy slamming mesaba pilots for a tough choice, assuming you are at airtran now, how was it paying for your own hotel while in training there. We have that in our contract, by the way. No need for your sanctimonious declarations here...

Also, I it is clear that upon reorganization you will NOT have an automatic right to strike, since the NMB will judge you to now be in section 6 negotiations.

 

[Lear70]

Why would someone qualified as a 727 capt. go to PNCL instead of taking another 727 capt. job? Are you not highly qualified for other jobs? (because he is an idiot)

Wow. You ASSume an awful lot, but since you didn't ask I'm going to go easy on you.

I was flying for a 121 Supplemental Freight operator (Express One) furloughed off the 727 just prior to 9/11, I had a 2nd UAL interview lined up and my 1st DAL interview but needed somewhere to work until they came up. Netjets offered the job but I had already flown fractional for Flexjet and they only thing I HADN'T done was 121 flag passenger operations, so I went with PCL, as they promissed lots of street CA hiring behind me. Then 9/11 happened and NO ONE was hiring for a while.

So yes, I had a lot of options for about 90 days, then after that was just lucky to have a d*mn job. Thanks for asking.

I know of a few cargo companies in need of current qualified 727 capts. and could make about 90+k a year. And have more days off than PNCL. By the way, you sure do have a lot of posts on this webboard. Maybe its time to grow up and have a real life.

This board is my distraction and way to keep in touch. I type about 130 wpm so responding to someone like you takes about 5 minutes then I'm back to wrenching on my cars (hobby).

Oh, by the way, I'm 35 and currently an F/O at airTran, but thanks for the heads up on the 727 jobs. There weren't any for a long while then the ones that WERE available were all expat gigs or had very few (if any) guaranteed days at home. No, thanks.

While partially correct on your interpretation of law, you are still missing the points here.

Just as you are missing mine?

The issue of striking has never been tested. Each and every time the company will make a plea for an injunction. And like it happened in both the NWA FA case and the Mesaba case, the judges have ruled in favor of the company. So there is no "automatic right".

You are correct except for that last part.

If you will actually READ the judge's ruling, in both cases, the judges SPECIFICALLY avoid any discussion of the RLA. In both cases, the judges treat the employees as creditors and as such, the company has automatic protection from them and can restructure their contracts as they see fit.

This was also the first time in history (speaking in general terms of the last 3-4 years) that right to strike under bankruptcy was ever tested. We lost. That doesn't mean we would automatically lose once the company came OUT of bankruptcy. Different set of circumstances, as MSA could no longer consider its employees 'creditors' and claim a protected status under bankruptcy law.

As for the company seeking an injunction from the NMB, maybe you have failed to notice that 2 of the 3 members of the NMB are Republicans, one who used to be a lobbyist for NWA. So they are going to support the pilots' struggle? Riiighhhhtt.

I hadn't failed to notice, I have over a dozen pending grievances still at PCL. I'm well aware of the current status of the NMB. HOWEVER, the NMB must follow established RLA wording to the letter. Contracts are open to interpretation, most the RLA is not and has established case history for many decades and that wording would have to be re-written and new case history established in order for the NMB to require the pilots to return to work.

Unfortunately, we won't know whether it would have worked or not.

And what you are suggesting is for the Mesaba pilots to wait it out, let the company exit from bankruptcy, battle in the courts for another year or so. ALL UNDER AN IMPOSED contract.

Yup.

I know, easy for me to say from my position. The problem is NO ONE has the fu*king balls to make a stand. PM any of my previous PCL coworkers and ask them how many times I've flat refused assignments I felt were in violation of the contract, at risk of being suspended or terminated.

I don't believe in 'Fly Now, Grieve Later', I don't believe in capitulating to 'Fight another day'. And I'm willing to put my entire career on the line to do it. I ask my fellow pilots to do the same, or don't bother even talking to me about how upset you are about the company or the contract.

If you don't have the balls to act on all the chest thumping that was going on here for the last year +, then I don't want to hear your b*tching.

The difference between imposed and agreed contracts is a couple of percent of cost savings under a 49 saab fleet. The real savings is 5% in contract rates. But the big difference between imposed and agreed is a 14.2 Million dollar claim for the pilots.

5% for Saab rates, how much of a cut for those CRJ's you're supposed to be getting? How much do you lose in COLA increases every year? How much in lost COLA and reduction from current book rates cumulative by the ammendable date? My bet is cumulative over the entire term it's something of a 15-18% loss over current book.

Seeing as how the PNCL claim was purchased by Goldman Sachs at 40 cents on the dollar, Mesaba pilots have a decent chance at getting a lot if not all of their money back (depending on seat and aircraft). How does that compare with the concessions taken by the NWA pilots?

[/quote]
Suuuurrrrrre. If you believe you'll ever see more than 5 cents on the dollar into your pocket, you need to put down the crack pipe.

The ALPA spin team is evidently still alive and well...

Slam away, I gotta get back to wrenching...