SWAPA TA Failure and downgrades

[GuppyWN]

The TA was a good first step. It just didn't merit being a binding contract YET. There is work to be done and it is my hope that SWA and SWAPA get on it post haste.

I love SWA and I want nothing but success for every pilot and the company. There is a middle ground, we just aren't there.

Some of the things I would like to see changed.

• one leg on SWA codeshare is a must
• unlimited distribution of other airlines tickets is a no no
• beta test any new open time system. It's only a side letter away
• no further restriction of ELITT
• same pay increase as our SWA peers
• eliminate Allegheny Mohawk/ Bond language
• on line JA only turns us all into reserves on our last leg - no sir.
• reserve pilots are real people too. TA offered little improvement

As far as the reduction of captains. It was going to happen whether we rejected the TA or not. All the company did was create more lance captains so I don't really see the benefit of this decision except that they can write fewer captain reserve lines.

Let's all try to pull the rope in the same direction and let Mr. Kelly and SWAPA work out the details. In the meantime I will treat our customers just like I always have - with respect and gratitude.

Gup

 

[shearedshaft]

1 - restricting ELITT decreases all of our flexibility. it is restricting, not opening up.

2 - limiting lances to 9 duty periods will not create a positive net zero for FOs. there are other FOs who give away everything to play the VJA game, very successfully I might add because the company has manning so screwed up and has for years. it would be ZERO most of the time regardless. what it does do is restrict lanes ability to make money. [\quote]

You say "give away everything", which is fine. Just don't pound on ELITT to do it. Use TTGA. I think you're wrong, by the way, the real motivation is pushing regular line flying to ELITT to pick up at 40% premium captain pay or second-year pay. Stop doing that and everybody can start using ELITT, not just lances when it first opens up, and weekend guys trying to move their schedule to weekdays.

3 - screwing probation guys who aren't even here yet was one of the worst parts of this TA and you quote it like it was a gain. [\quote]

How is not letting guys on probation pound on ELITT to change from first year pay to second year pay "screwing" them? They can give away their trips if they want, just don't use ELITT for what is isn't designed for. The company doesn't want every single probationary FO to give his entire line to ELITT and pick up everything at second year pay, if they did, they'd just pay each guy second year pay to start. I don't have any problem with this, I certainly wouldn't pay $1,000 per month to ensure that I can't use ELITT because some first year guy is able to play the system like a tournament player.

You still haven't addressed the fact that both of these techniques do, in fact, "screw" the senior line-holding, weekday flier who can't ELITT. Why is it ok to screw that guy by restricting tournament level playing?

4 - cutting half the lances definitely affects the 100 guys that lose their star[\quote]

No doubt. Have you asked flight ops why they wanted this? Looks like they're getting it through the back doo anyway.

[quoote]5 - no they aren't, if you understood the current contract and the RLA principle of 'status quo' then you'd know that the current lances will keep their stars (CWA software programming issues not withstanding, do we get our IT guys at a 2 year tech school or what?) but since you apparently don't understand our 15 year old CBA, I'm not really that surprised that you don't really understand all the ins and outs of the TA either.[\quote]

We'll see. If you could show me that paragraph that says they get to keep their stars, I'd appreciate it. It's been done in the past, but it's not written down.

6 - 6% over 5 years. we weren't in the worst recession in 50 years when we started negotiations 3 years ago. inflation is likely to get worse not better with the way the feds are spending. 10% is a pipe dream. no way we were gettning much over 1% for those last 2 years, when every other group got 3% or so. [\quote]

If you're a senior FO, you haven't looked at your pay scale. Senior FOs were going to get 10% hard raises, plus the 401 (k) bump.

About $10 per trip. That's a lot of coin you handed back to the company.

7 - restrictions on RJs were good. I expect to see the same in TA2. we have no codeshare w/o 5% growth in SL32. [\quote]

Again, go read SL32 instead of parroting. It does NOT say that the company will quit codesharing if they drop below growth goals. That's why I voted against it

8 - far int'l was the one place that SWA isn't likely to codeshare or go anytime soon anyway, certainly not in the next 2 years when or next contract is up. that protection wasn't worth much. we've already delayed the westjet and volaris codeshare. [\quote]

So this kind of codeshare is "good codeshare"?

9 - 2xJA was a good thing. there was much about the TA that was good, too bad it came wrapped in a crap sandwich.

10 - the TA took away the minimum .72 mach adjustmetn. I've seen it debated both ways but tend to agree that the .72 was worth more than the 5 minutes from 12. [\quote]

Get your calculator out again. Or better yet, start logging the time you fly below mach .72. You'll find that it wasn't worth $1,000 per month to keep the mach adjustment.

there are answers. they might have helped you pre vote. you might get better answers on a SWA pilot forum instead of airing your whining complaints about your $1000 on FI. I'm a senior FO. I stood to gain as much straight pay rates as anyone but it wasn't worth it to me due to the stuff that came with it. [\quote]

You gave up a lot of moolah, that's true. You're down at least $1,000 so far, not counting the $7,000 or $8,000 in retro you would be getting a check for in the next couple of weeks. So pretty soon, you'll have paid $10,000 for your general unhappiness.

14 answers. not hard to do. won't convince you I'm sure but maybe you'll pay more attention next go round. I'm pretty tired of all the little girl yes voters that were too scared or wimpy to say they were voting yes on the van or at the bar. have the courage of your convictions in real life as well as on flight info. maybe you'll learn something pre-vote next time.

Ok, will do. I'll have to, since the guys that didn't dig into the "whys" of the contract cost me a whole lot of money and quality of life by keeping ELITT useless and making me effectively write a check to the company for $1,000 per month. Nice work.

 

[shearedshaft]

messed up the quoting.

 

[rajflyboy]

Could it be.....

Just Another "Pay For Training" flying job some day??

 

[GuppyWN]

Shearshaft,

I'm calling you out. There is NO WAY voting down the TA is costing you $1000 a month.

What's costing you $1000 a month is Mr. Kellys decision to freeze growth which means you aren't getting the biggest raise of your career. We are all frustrated about that but let's not misdirect our focus to where it doesn't belong.

GUP is down $1000 a month because we have reduced flying. The TA would have only made it worse. Much worse. I know because I KNOW how to ethically use our current contract.

Gup

 

[scoreboardII]

shearshaft, you still haven't answered the question, why was the TA so good for the 51% who voted no? The bottom half, the 60plus% of FO's who voted no?

And another thing:

You still haven't addressed the fact that both of these techniques do, in fact, "screw" the senior line-holding, weekday flier who can't ELITT. Why is it ok to screw that guy by restricting tournament level playing?

Why was perfectly OK for YOU to have this opportunity yet you now want to kill it for all those behind you?

I know why, your missing your $1000 a month!!

 

[Flying the Line]

What could be happening to the Frontier guys and gals is reason enough for us to not have such weak language in section 1. C. 1. Mergers.

 

[firstthird]

messed up the quoting.

really? I hardly noticed.

 

[rajflyboy]

The "Peeps" voted no. Time to move forward not backward now !!

 

[firstthird]

How is not letting guys on probation pound on ELITT to change from first year pay to second year pay "screwing" them? They can give away their trips if they want, just don't use ELITT for what is isn't designed for

You do a lot of talking about what stuff was designed for. You sound like a CP with your talking points. ELITT works like it works. Changing it to benefit more senior guys is a change, what did we get for it. And you seem to think that guys can clear their board with ELITT, this is patently not true. you can only trade down if net zero is positive, and as you've pointed out, it rarely is.

The company doesn't want every single probationary FO to give his entire line to ELITT and pick up everything at second year pay

I'm all for letting the company worry about what they want to worry about. As a pilot and a member of a pilot union, I will not stand by while we benefit the haves (senior) at the expense of the havenots (junior and probationary and not on property).

Have you asked flight ops why they wanted this?

again, I don't spend my nights worrying about what flight ops thinks. they had their negotiators, we had ours. Flight ops is perfectly capable of holding up their end of negotiations (I introduce Item A into evidence, the defeated TA), us pilots do not need to lend them a hand.

We'll see. If you could show me that paragraph that says they get to keep their stars, I'd appreciate it. It's been done in the past, but it's not written down.

status quo. it has meaning. if the company tries to change it, we grieve it and it will wake some of the fence sitters up to the fact that the LUV fest has changed. I don't expect them to be that stupid. SWA is very smart. It is just business. If some of the pilots would treat it like that, we'd be better off. not naming any names or anything.

If you're a senior FO, you haven't looked at your pay scale. Senior FOs were going to get 10% hard raises, plus the 401 (k) bump.

I looked. It isn't all about me. I gave up probably more than you since I work more than the average bear. But I think we'll do better. at least get veto over the open time system, then it will be designed with pilots in mind rather than reducing scheduling head count. only at SWA do they spend 10's of millions figuring out how to reduce our lowest paid employees while making our highest paid employees less efficient. first principles here folks.

So this kind of codeshare is "good codeshare"?

none in my mind. that may not be attainable. some of section one was pretty good, some was horrible. my vote wasn't mainly about codeshare. although I am sporting a "no codeshare" bag sticker.

Sheared, I've answered your questions. I'm on the other forums if you really want to get into the nitty-gritty. better yet, get your pprune access and read up on what was discussed the last 2 months. same at the union forum. you might just learn something. you have some valid points, I just don't agree with the weighting that you are giving them. I'm not the only one calling you out and you seem to be ignoring most. your choice but it weakens your FI street cred.

 

[shearedshaft]

Shearshaft,

I'm calling you out. There is NO WAY voting down the TA is costing you $1000 a month.

What's costing you $1000 a month is Mr. Kellys decision to freeze growth which means you aren't getting the biggest raise of your career. We are all frustrated about that but let's not misdirect our focus to where it doesn't belong.

GUP is down $1000 a month because we have reduced flying. The TA would have only made it worse. Much worse. I know because I KNOW how to ethically use our current contract.

Gup

You guys haven't even done the math. Senior FOs would have gotten about a $10 per trip raise (some $11 per trip). Multiply that by 100.

That comes out to...$1,000

And some of us actually fly more than 100 trips per month.

Every captain and every senior FO gave up at least $1,000 per month, every junior FO gave up less, but 6% of their earnings.

So not having an open time system that you can test is worth $1,000/month to you? It isn't to me. The system makes sense to me.

What's funny is that you guys 1) don't even know the value of your raise and 2) haven't thought through how expensive your decision was, over what are almost all minor points. A couple of points on ELITT on one weekend a month for $12,000 per year? Paying this same $1,000 per month to not get notified of extra flying by email or text? What in the world is wrong with you?

Again, if you use ELITT to trade trips (which I, and other weekday fliers can't), you would be better off having it not get abused by lances and first year guys.

If you're a lance, or a first year guy, then keeping ELITT the same and abusing it takes flexibility from the senior guys. It doesn't matter what flight ops wants, but they have the data on what guys are doing to the system, which ultimately harms all of us at some point.

And yes, net zero is always zero...because lances hang out on the system and pound it every time it pokes it's head up. I bet it never stays positive more than a minute or two at a time. Why is keeping net zero equal to zero worth $1,000 per month to you? It's a pain in the butt to the rest of us.

I just read the SWAPA email, it looks like (yet again) I was right...lances who don't meet the eight percent are going to get pimp-slapped, so nice work spending $1,000 per month to grandfather guys that won't be able to be grandfathered, since they won't be lances.

 

[MILPILOT17]

You guys haven't even done the math. Senior FOs would have gotten about a $10 per trip raise (some $11 per trip). Multiply that by 100.

That comes out to...$1,000

And some of us actually fly more than 100 trips per month.

Every captain and every senior FO gave up at least $1,000 per month, every junior FO gave up less, but 6% of their earnings.

So not having an open time system that you can test is worth $1,000/month to you? It isn't to me. The system makes sense to me.

What's funny is that you guys 1) don't even know the value of your raise and 2) haven't thought through how expensive your decision was, over what are almost all minor points. A couple of points on ELITT on one weekend a month for $12,000 per year? Paying this same $1,000 per month to not get notified of extra flying by email or text? What in the world is wrong with you?

Again, if you use ELITT to trade trips (which I, and other weekday fliers can't), you would be better off having it not get abused by lances and first year guys.

If you're a lance, or a first year guy, then keeping ELITT the same and abusing it takes flexibility from the senior guys. It doesn't matter what flight ops wants, but they have the data on what guys are doing to the system, which ultimately harms all of us at some point.

And yes, net zero is always zero...because lances hang out on the system and pound it every time it pokes it's head up. I bet it never stays positive more than a minute or two at a time. Why is keeping net zero equal to zero worth $1,000 per month to you? It's a pain in the butt to the rest of us.

I just read the SWAPA email, it looks like (yet again) I was right...lances who don't meet the eight percent are going to get pimp-slapped, so nice work spending $1,000 per month to grandfather guys that won't be able to be grandfathered, since they won't be lances.

It's all about money to you? Maybe you should do a better job of living w/in your means. Have you figured the tax implications of making that extra money? Obama is just going to take a large percentage of it and give it to the people who don't give a "rats-ass" how hard you work for it! We're all in this together! At least act like you give a sh!t about your fellow SWAPA brothers.

 

[vixin]

He only cares about 1 person. Its good we can block him here, but bad we cant on the SWAPA forum.

 

[ASADFW7]

Last I looked I still got paid on the 20th, life is still a lot better than at ASA.

 

[GuppyWN]

Shearshaft,

You will get your raise - with retro. You will get 3%, not 2%. In doing so we will have an opportunity to not give away the farm IRT the TA's scope and codeshare section.

I find it interesting that you were fear mongering furloughs but yet you admit "lots of us fly over 100 tfp."

You can make more money with ELITT the way it is vs. the way the TA had it.

Gup