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SWAPA TA Failure and downgrades

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I just posted ten points. You haven't addressed a single one.

This is an interesting exercise. I suspect you're simply mad that Gary Kelly isn't growing the airline and that age 65 kicked guys in the balls.

The problem is, your frustration with other people and other things are costing me both money and risk my job security through not restricting codeshare.
 
The major problem with the "no" voters is not dealing with the reality of swa. There will be no more growth and no fast upgrades for a long time, maybe forever. Swa will not have 600+ airplanes. This is GK's swa and he's scared to death. When they finally accept the reality of the future and realize that someone has to fly on the weekends and there are going to be 15 year FO's, then we can move forward.
 
see you on a SWA pilot forum. I'm plenty vocal with people who are man enough to post under their name. are you?

Now I'm not "man enough" and you still haven't addressed a single point I made.

You got a hold of that bumper, now show that garbage truck a thing or two.
 
The major problem with the "no" voters is not dealing with the reality of swa. There will be no more growth and no fast upgrades for a long time, maybe forever. Swa will not have 600+ airplanes. This is GK's swa and he's scared to death. When they finally accept the reality of the future and realize that someone has to fly on the weekends and there are going to be 15 year FO's, then we can move forward.

Reality sucks for some of these guys, and I agree it doesn't have much to do with the contract.

Hating your life isn't a reason to give up raises, retro and codeshare protection, plus the chance to finally get to use ELITT when you fly weekdays.

I mean, they sure showed Gary: "You better do what I say, or I'll put $400 million back in the company checking account!"
 
Now I'm not "man enough" and you still haven't addressed a single point I made.

You got a hold of that bumper, now show that garbage truck a thing or two.

I agree with your points, and so will everyone else, in about 2 years. Saying "I told you so" just wont help with the pain of losing that retro check.
 
By the way, you're kind of freaking me out. I figured the no voters had some sort of grand plan to make this all work out for the better, now I feel like all they've done is throw a bottle through a plate glass window to show discontent with the new reality.

What would it take for you to vote yes to something? I suspect the answer is "nothing will ever be good enough for me to vote yes, since age 65 screwed me, the negotiating commission screwed me, the union guys screwed me and scheduling probably screwed me too."

Sucks to go through life not realizing when you are holding something valuable in your hand, like your job and a contract that makes the job even that much nicer.
 
Seriously, it got voted down and you are only manifesting anger here. Go to work, do your job and vote again next time. Venting about what has happened will not change anything. You and I are about the same seniority (2002) so I understand your vote but really, give it a rest already.
 
Voting down a TA is not breaking a window. We just preferred our current contract to the new TA, after 15 years. Says something about the TA doesn't it. Buying a new house is a more apt metaphor. A majority of us prefer the current 15 year old house to the 'new' one we were getting. All windows still intact, both houses. The new house needs some modifications before we move in and we don't want to be living in it was they turn off the plumbing or rip out the kitchen. besides, I want to see the new master bath and the granite countertops before I pay for it. (veto power on the open time changes)

The next step is obvious, so much so that most people don't need it pointed out. We go back into negotiations and we fix it. Figure out what the main sticking points were and make it better. It ain't personal. It is business. then again, I'm not the guy whining about the 1000 a month that "you guys" cost me. We, as a group, turned this TA down. We, as a group, will make it better.
 
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"nothing will ever be good enough for me to vote yes, since age 65 screwed me, the negotiating commission screwed me, the union guys screwed me and scheduling probably screwed me too."

...and now, we just screwed ourselves!!?!

Couldn't agree more, and I suspect there are more than just a few captains that liked the contract, but just didn't want to be accused of throwing their brothers under the bus, and thusly voted it down. But...that's all moot, now that captains are being downsized by 23, with more downgrades coming in the future. Interesting to see where the buyer's remorse now lies...
 
Voting down a TA is not breaking a window. We just preferred our current contract to the new TA, after 15 years. Says something about the TA doesn't it. Buying a new house is a more apt metaphor. A majority of us prefer the current 15 year old house to the 'new' one we were getting. All windows still intact, both houses. The new house needs some modifications before we move in and we don't want to be living in it was they turn off the plumbing or rip out the kitchen. besides, I want to see the new master bath and the granite countertops before I pay for it. (veto power on the open time changes)

The next step is obvious, so much so that most people don't need it pointed out. We go back into negotiations and we fix it. Figure out what the main sticking points were and make it better. It ain't personal. It is business. then again, I'm not the guy whining about the 1000 a month that "you guys" cost me. We, as a group, turned this TA down. We, as a group, will make it better.


Never mind
 
What does never mind mean?

Whatever, Firstthird, you've made zero attempt to articulate the "why". I asked you ten direct questions, I'll try some more. Why is the current status of zero codeshare restriction better than some codeshare restrictions? Why is no raise better than a raise? Why is ELITT getting abused better than ELITT for everyone to use? Why are lances somehow a protected class?

Hell, now we're up to 14 questions. You've made your choice, it's costing us all $1,000 per month. Don't you think it's time to justify it?
 
1 - we have protection in SL32, no codeshare unless we grow 5% a year.
2 - we'll get a raise and it might even match every other workgroup rather than 6% over 5 years. that isn't even close to inflation. you might count that as moving forward, I count it as moving backwards.
3 - the entire open time system shouldn't be distorted to change the behavior of a few. hard cases make bad law. writing the contract to kill the 'tournament level players' is ridiculous.
4 - lances aren't a 'protected class.' rather they were one segment of our pilot group that got singled out to take a huge pay cut while most of us got modest raises.

I've been arguing and debating this TA since it came out. You, by your own admission, were late to the game. I'm a little tired of pointing out all the deficiencies for the deficient of understanding. I get that you are a PHX guy who was flying with a bunch of yes guys and thought this thing was going down. I'm a MDW guy that also flew with some yes guys. some of which I may have converted. I did something about it. You are whining about it after the fact. I'm not the one that has to justify jack. You are the one that should justify your "I lost my 1000 dollars a month" when you were too disinterested, uniformed or just plain lazy to get involved when it matterd, pre- NO vote. my side, the No voters, won this round. you'll end up with a better TA because of it. You are welcome.
 
1. Restricting ELITT weekends helps the senior guys who fly during the week make use of ELITT.
2. Restricting number of lance duty periods to nine helps FOs use ELITT, net zero will go positive for once
3. Restricting first year guys to only getting second-year pay above their line total helps FOs who use ELITT, because they won't dump trips
4. Reducing the lance captain program by half won't change lance giveaways, because there aren't even enough turn lines to fill up 3.2%
5. Grandfathering lances is moot, downgrades are taking care of that
6. The payraises were fine, ranging from 6% to 10% in the worst recession in 50 years.
7. The TA offered restrictions on domestic codeshare and RJs which don't exist in our contract and are welcome.
8. The TA restricts far-international codeshare completely, like domestic.
9. The TA changes JA pay to double time
10. The TA changed overfly pay to only five minutes.
1 - restricting ELITT decreases all of our flexibility. it is restricting, not opening up.

2 - limiting lances to 9 duty periods will not create a positive net zero for FOs. there are other FOs who give away everything to play the VJA game, very successfully I might add because the company has manning so screwed up and has for years. it would be ZERO most of the time regardless. what it does do is restrict lanes ability to make money.

3 - screwing probation guys who aren't even here yet was one of the worst parts of this TA and you quote it like it was a gain. we all benefited from this and now you want to pull up the ladder. too bad you aren't a 60 something captain, you'd fit right in, except some of those guys even voted no because they were looking at how the TA affected the whole group, not just themselves, you should try it.

4 - cutting half the lances definitely affects the 100 guys that lose their star

5 - no they aren't, if you understood the current contract and the RLA principle of 'status quo' then you'd know that the current lances will keep their stars (CWA software programming issues not withstanding, do we get our IT guys at a 2 year tech school or what?) but since you apparently don't understand our 15 year old CBA, I'm not really that surprised that you don't really understand all the ins and outs of the TA either.

6 - 6% over 5 years. we weren't in the worst recession in 50 years when we started negotiations 3 years ago. inflation is likely to get worse not better with the way the feds are spending. 10% is a pipe dream. no way we were gettning much over 1% for those last 2 years, when every other group got 3% or so.

7 - restrictions on RJs were good. I expect to see the same in TA2. we have no codeshare w/o 5% growth in SL32. you may say that the company won't honor it, well, guess what, they might not honor the TA either. either we are dealing with men of honor on the other side or not, if not, God help us all.

8 - far int'l was the one place that SWA isn't likely to codeshare or go anytime soon anyway, certainly not in the next 2 years when or next contract is up. that protection wasn't worth much. we've already delayed the westjet and volaris codeshare.

9 - 2xJA was a good thing. there was much about the TA that was good, too bad it came wrapped in a crap sandwich.

10 - the TA took away the minimum .72 mach adjustmetn. I've seen it debated both ways but tend to agree that the .72 was worth more than the 5 minutes from 12.

there are answers. they might have helped you pre vote. you might get better answers on a SWA pilot forum instead of airing your whining complaints about your $1000 on FI. I'm a senior FO. I stood to gain as much straight pay rates as anyone but it wasn't worth it to me due to the stuff that came with it.

14 answers. not hard to do. won't convince you I'm sure but maybe you'll pay more attention next go round. I'm pretty tired of all the little girl yes voters that were too scared or wimpy to say they were voting yes on the van or at the bar. have the courage of your convictions in real life as well as on flight info. maybe you'll learn something pre-vote next time.
 
Sheard, OK, play the other side of the argument, why was this TA so good for the 51.8 % that voted NO?

Please detail why the guy on reserve for the next few years still gets a B scale paychart, explain why it's good to be JA'd on your last day, explain why it will be good to have two weekends a month go ELITT red instead of one, etc, etc...

I know why your pissed:
That's $12,000 per year, or more if you're a senior dude.
Your a senior dude and missed out on a new Lexus Payment...
 
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