SWAPA is a joke

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bluestreaking

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Actually the 1.25 rate is only for parings other than ATL and only if a FO is flying with a AT Capt that is junior to him. So between the seat lock and the fence what are the realistic chances of anyone being paid that rate.......
I know how the 1.25 works, that's why I'm so disgusted.

It's funny how our BOD voted 19-0 YES, but every pilot I've spoken to is voting NO.
 

gobyebye

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Every pilot always says they are voting no. It's the cool thing to say. We all want to be part of the tough cool crowd and be a bad :ss....then it comes time to vote in the privacy of your own home and things change.
 

ivauir

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Says the guy who just robbed a 7-11 with his gun to the clerks head.

Let's see if you're so flippant after an arbitrator makes a fair SLI.
Um ... who is being "flippant" here?

You get a huge pay raise and the ability to camp out in ATL at your previous QOL. I got ... "unharmed".
 

CrewDog97

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Just curious, does Southwest have a lot of guys interested in ATL domicile? In other words, if there were no fences, would the domicile go senior, junior, or somewhere in between? Any guesses?
 

400ADude

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Says the guy who just robbed a 7-11 with his gun to the clerks head.

Let's see if you're so flippant after an arbitrator makes a fair SLI.
At least you can make and understand the analogy that working at Airtran is the equivalent to working as a cashier at 7-11.:bawling:
 

humveedriver

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Um ... who is being "flippant" here?

You get a huge pay raise and the ability to camp out in ATL at your previous QOL. I got ... "unharmed".
I think 850 pilots get to camp out in ATL. So the very senior AT pilots will not be effected. That leaves another 850 plus to try their hand in a SWA base. This reduction will take place over time and the earliest it would be complete is probably the 30 month mark. So the price I pay to keep a Captain retention slot is reserve (assuming no growth) for 10 years minimum, though 12-15 years is probably more realistic. I suppose several of those years I will not be senior enough to hold just one base. So forget moving for a while. I could have worse problems than this I know. But there is "some" cost on the AT side! I wonder if the reaction by both sides would have been different if the SLI had gone closer to DOH, but they didn't focus on seat protection. Seems like SWA management probably wanted to keep training costs down and so we are getting a deal we are both not happy with.
 

On Your Six

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Says the guy who just robbed a 7-11 with his gun to the clerks head.

Let's see if you're so flippant after an arbitrator makes a fair SLI.
Bravo. It just appears this deal is very one sided, and even though your Captains would keep their seats, they will remain junior for YEARS. (what are the scheduled retirements for the next 10 years? 150 a year, maybe?) Their relative seniority would be poor. It's great having the higher pay, but not having Christmas off for years or weekends wouldn't be that fun. If you choose the arbitration route, you may get a lot better relative seniority, and it would be binding. When would it go into effect? GK I guess could get mad and try to delay things, but eventually he would have to give in if he would want true synergies, and the corndogs would have to abide by it, unless they want to be like USAir. Maybe you should CONSIDER other options, such as arbitration if you are unhappy with that apparent turd of a deal. JMO of course. Godspeed!


OYS
 
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aussieflyboy

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On Your Six,

To this outside observer it seems like you are invested in some way in the Airtran guys taking the SLI to arbitration. I was under the impression you work for Delta. I'm wondering why you're grinding your axe the way you are. Do you have a spouse/brother/relative who is an AT pilot? What's in it for you?
 

Lear70

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Um ... who is being "flippant" here?

You get a huge pay raise and the ability to camp out in ATL at your previous QOL. I got ... "unharmed".
Speak for someone else, my friend.

About 50% of our pilots take a HUGE Quality of Life hit, even staying in the ATL. The problem is the reduction of the base. The upper 20% are unharmed, but the middle 50% instead of bidding out to be in the top 25% in MKE or MCO have to go back to ATL to hold even the bottom 10-50%.

I'm fairly senior as F/O's go here, barely missed the 649 staple cutoff and got stapled, and go from #7 in MCO to bottom 23% in ATL. That takes me from weekends and holidays off to working every weekend and holiday and there are a lot of friends of mine in the same boat.

Only half our people got to keep their Quality of Life. The rest will be a boost to your junior pilots as they get displaced to other bases. It won't affect a lot of people, but enough to throw a few hundred SWA pilots from being on reserve into holding a line while our guys go on reserve (and our junior 737 CA's stay on reserve for 5-7 years).

I'm not saying it's "great" for you guys, I was expecting GK to throw some money your way as well, but it's not all roses on our side. It'll pass, if the MEC puts it out for vote, but it will do so mainly out of fear while people hold their noses and hope for a LOT of growth in the near future.

We'll just have to make the best of it... I firmly believe in that old saying, "A man's about as happy as he makes up his mind to be."
 
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maru657

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SWAPA joke?? just a quick question?? How many Eastern "replacement pilots" now on the list at Airtran...(Valuejet)
Replacement pilots? Probably not as many as at AA, you know the ones that screwed the Reno and TWA pilots or the ones at United who plugged the Frontier pilots in 86. So, maybe you need to define "replacement pilots".
 

Bob Dylan

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I guess having all those fo's on our neg team turned out to be a BAD idea! Wow they got played!
Being that a straight staple with a no furlough clause would have easily passed a vote at the trannie, I'd say your guys got played too. What a bunch of amateurs.

I've never seen a luckier group of pilots than the trannies. Amazing!
 

Bob Dylan

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Speak for someone else, my friend.

About 50% of our pilots take a HUGE Quality of Life hit, even staying in the ATL. The problem is the reduction of the base. The upper 20% are unharmed, but the middle 50% instead of bidding out to be in the top 25% in MKE or MCO have to go back to ATL to hold even the bottom 10-50%.

I'm fairly senior as F/O's go here, barely missed the 649 staple cutoff and got stapled, and go from #7 in MCO to bottom 23% in ATL. That takes me from weekends and holidays off to working every weekend and holiday and there are a lot of friends of mine in the same boat.

Only half our people got to keep their Quality of Life. The rest will be a boost to your junior pilots as they get displaced to other bases. It won't affect a lot of people, but enough to throw a few hundred SWA pilots from being on reserve into holding a line while our guys go on reserve (and our junior 737 CA's stay on reserve for 5-7 years).

I'm not saying it's "great" for you guys, I was expecting GK to throw some money your way as well, but it's not all roses on our side. It'll pass, if the MEC puts it out for vote, but it will do so mainly out of fear while people hold their noses and hope for a LOT of growth in the near future.

We'll just have to make the best of it... I firmly believe in that old saying, "A man's about as happy as he makes up his mind to be."

Coming from the guy turned down at Southwest numerous times and then begged for a staple a few weeks before they bought you. LOL

Wow, I'll bet you're a crack poker player! Not.
 

Tejas-Jet

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i didnt expect anyone who upgraded after the deal was announced to still hold their captain seat for one, especially someone who upgraded only months ago!
You need to call your rep and ask him/her what our M & A attorney told our BOD. Keep in mind, this is a guy who stands to make LOTS of money if we go to arbitration.

After your phone call, let us know what your Reps told you.

Can anyone name an SLI arbitration among major airlines where any Captain lost their seat ?

Delta/Western ? US Air/PSA ? Alaska/Jet America ? Continental/Texas International ? Delta/NWA ? US Air/Piedmont ? Fed Ex/Flying Tigers ?

Just asking...
 

waveflyer

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Reno air did, I believe, but not that familiar.
I don't want them losing their seat. I just wish they didn't go to SWA pay while our higher longevity FOs stay flat. It's a small segment- but it isn't right.
I say pay protect the top 249(?) swa FOs and keep the bottom 249 AT capts that have less longevity at AT pay.
Keep the seat and save the training cost- they're still making their expected money- ie: "not harmed" but the senior pilots get the pay increase.

This solves the one sticking point that seems to be giving everyone angst.
 

Tejas-Jet

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I don't want them losing their seat. I just wish they didn't go to SWA pay while our higher longevity FOs stay flat. It's a small segment- but it isn't right.
And, you're probably right...but based on that alone, is it worth voting down the entire deal on the table for the unknown of...arbirtation ? Just for tbhis one item that bothers you ? IF this gets voted down, we don't get to keep just parts of this deal we like. It's all or nothing.

Then it is all gone and this list gets put together by...people we don't even know....who don't know anything about airplanes or Pilots or what we do. People who define terms like "Windfall", "Fair and Equitable" and "Career Expectations" in a diffferent way that Pilots do. Pilots define those terms with emotion...arbitrators use the legal meanings...that way the emotion is taken out of the equation...and the results are vastly different.

I say pay protect the top 249(?) swa FOs and keep the bottom 249 AT capts that have less longevity at AT pay.
Nice idea. Did you ever call the NC with this before the negotiations got started ? Have you called your Reps yet ? Pass this by them and see what they say.

Please share their answers with us....Inquiring minds want to know.


This solves the one sticking point that seems to be giving everyone angst.
Worth going to the unknkown of arbitration ? I'd like to know what our M&A attorney has to say about this. He is the expert we have hired to give us the best advice.

We know airplanes...our attorney knows SLI's...I wanna know what he says.
 

hairball1173

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Bottom line is all upgrades system wide including ATL will go to SWA FO's before any AAI FO's. If I read it correctly that is 2600+ SWA FO's before any AAI FO's are touched.
 

texman

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Bottom line is all upgrades system wide including ATL will go to SWA FO's before any AAI FO's. If I read it correctly that is 2600+ SWA FO's before any AAI FO's are touched.
True, then the top 150-200 AT/SWA FO's will get them next. Then the 650 AT fo's, then the 240 SWA fo's we hired.
 

Golden Falcon

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Replacement pilots? Probably not as many as at AA, you know the ones that screwed the Reno and TWA pilots or the ones at United who plugged the Frontier pilots in 86. So, maybe you need to define "replacement pilots".

the ones that dominated ValueJet after the Eastern strike...
 

waveflyer

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Tejas-
That's the process- Still contemplating how to vote.
I will speak to my rep. As an 8x,xxx number, I'm not sure if it's my battle- but I think that's a good idea- but here's a reality that has nothing to do with AT, but affects this- the captains I'm flying with, who are largely unaffected, are voting with the senior FO's BECAUSE age 65 promises of a short delay in upgrade have turned out to be the full 5 years- and the lance capt deal- they just don't want to see that group see any perceived unfairness. So it's a much larger constituency than it normally would be.

I will email my rep- and I encourage others to do the same- again keep the whole deal intact, except keep the 249 AT junior captains at their equivalent AT pay and pay the top 249 senior swa FO's full capt pay. That leaves AT pilots in their seat and "unharmed" pay wise, and is more fair for our top FO's.

Since little details were available until the last few weeks, there is no way I could have made this particular suggestion before now, but I will recommend it if it is possible to tweak it- and I suggest others that feel this issue is important do the same.

Not a vote No campaign-" a good deal, but needs a tweak," campaign.

;-)
I'd love to have this behind us. Another round or two of drama is NOT appealing at all to me.
 

dicko

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Tejas-
That's the process- Still contemplating how to vote.
I will speak to my rep. As an 8x,xxx number, I'm not sure if it's my battle- but I think that's a good idea- but here's a reality that has nothing to do with AT, but affects this- the captains I'm flying with, who are largely unaffected, are voting with the senior FO's BECAUSE age 65 promises of a short delay in upgrade have turned out to be the full 5 years- and the lance capt deal- they just don't want to see that group see any perceived unfairness. So it's a much larger constituency than it normally would be.

I will email my rep- and I encourage others to do the same- again keep the whole deal intact, except keep the 249 AT junior captains at their equivalent AT pay and pay the top 249 senior swa FO's full capt pay. That leaves AT pilots in their seat and "unharmed" pay wise, and is more fair for our top FO's.

Since little details were available until the last few weeks, there is no way I could have made this particular suggestion before now, but I will recommend it if it is possible to tweak it- and I suggest others that feel this issue is important do the same.

Not a vote No campaign-" a good deal, but needs a tweak," campaign.

;-)
I'd love to have this behind us. Another round or two of drama is NOT appealing at all to me.


By the time this deal is finished I'll be a 10 year CA who holds the same seniority as a 8XXXXXX number. That's you.

Looking forward to flying with you. Unfortunately I'll be a little senior to you Wave. So no pay bump for you.

I think you should vote NO. Lord knows you deserve CA's pay and the 32% seniority I lost. It's only fair.
 
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