SWAPA is a joke

[Bob Dylan]

I guess having all those fo's on our neg team turned out to be a BAD idea! Wow they got played!

Being that a straight staple with a no furlough clause would have easily passed a vote at the trannie, I'd say your guys got played too. What a bunch of amateurs.

I've never seen a luckier group of pilots than the trannies. Amazing!

 

[Bob Dylan]

Speak for someone else, my friend.

About 50% of our pilots take a HUGE Quality of Life hit, even staying in the ATL. The problem is the reduction of the base. The upper 20% are unharmed, but the middle 50% instead of bidding out to be in the top 25% in MKE or MCO have to go back to ATL to hold even the bottom 10-50%.

I'm fairly senior as F/O's go here, barely missed the 649 staple cutoff and got stapled, and go from #7 in MCO to bottom 23% in ATL. That takes me from weekends and holidays off to working every weekend and holiday and there are a lot of friends of mine in the same boat.

Only half our people got to keep their Quality of Life. The rest will be a boost to your junior pilots as they get displaced to other bases. It won't affect a lot of people, but enough to throw a few hundred SWA pilots from being on reserve into holding a line while our guys go on reserve (and our junior 737 CA's stay on reserve for 5-7 years).

I'm not saying it's "great" for you guys, I was expecting GK to throw some money your way as well, but it's not all roses on our side. It'll pass, if the MEC puts it out for vote, but it will do so mainly out of fear while people hold their noses and hope for a LOT of growth in the near future.

We'll just have to make the best of it... I firmly believe in that old saying, "A man's about as happy as he makes up his mind to be."

Coming from the guy turned down at Southwest numerous times and then begged for a staple a few weeks before they bought you. LOL

Wow, I'll bet you're a crack poker player! Not.

 

[Tejas-Jet]

i didnt expect anyone who upgraded after the deal was announced to still hold their captain seat for one, especially someone who upgraded only months ago!

You need to call your rep and ask him/her what our M & A attorney told our BOD. Keep in mind, this is a guy who stands to make LOTS of money if we go to arbitration.

After your phone call, let us know what your Reps told you.

Can anyone name an SLI arbitration among major airlines where any Captain lost their seat ?

Delta/Western ? US Air/PSA ? Alaska/Jet America ? Continental/Texas International ? Delta/NWA ? US Air/Piedmont ? Fed Ex/Flying Tigers ?

Just asking...

 

[waveflyer]

Reno air did, I believe, but not that familiar.
I don't want them losing their seat. I just wish they didn't go to SWA pay while our higher longevity FOs stay flat. It's a small segment- but it isn't right.
I say pay protect the top 249(?) swa FOs and keep the bottom 249 AT capts that have less longevity at AT pay.
Keep the seat and save the training cost- they're still making their expected money- ie: "not harmed" but the senior pilots get the pay increase.

This solves the one sticking point that seems to be giving everyone angst.

 

[Tejas-Jet]

I don't want them losing their seat. I just wish they didn't go to SWA pay while our higher longevity FOs stay flat. It's a small segment- but it isn't right.

And, you're probably right...but based on that alone, is it worth voting down the entire deal on the table for the unknown of...arbirtation ? Just for tbhis one item that bothers you ? IF this gets voted down, we don't get to keep just parts of this deal we like. It's all or nothing.

Then it is all gone and this list gets put together by...people we don't even know....who don't know anything about airplanes or Pilots or what we do. People who define terms like "Windfall", "Fair and Equitable" and "Career Expectations" in a diffferent way that Pilots do. Pilots define those terms with emotion...arbitrators use the legal meanings...that way the emotion is taken out of the equation...and the results are vastly different.

I say pay protect the top 249(?) swa FOs and keep the bottom 249 AT capts that have less longevity at AT pay.

Nice idea. Did you ever call the NC with this before the negotiations got started ? Have you called your Reps yet ? Pass this by them and see what they say.

Please share their answers with us....Inquiring minds want to know.

This solves the one sticking point that seems to be giving everyone angst.

Worth going to the unknkown of arbitration ? I'd like to know what our M&A attorney has to say about this. He is the expert we have hired to give us the best advice.

We know airplanes...our attorney knows SLI's...I wanna know what he says.

 

[hairball1173]

Bottom line is all upgrades system wide including ATL will go to SWA FO's before any AAI FO's. If I read it correctly that is 2600+ SWA FO's before any AAI FO's are touched.

 

[texman]

Bottom line is all upgrades system wide including ATL will go to SWA FO's before any AAI FO's. If I read it correctly that is 2600+ SWA FO's before any AAI FO's are touched.

True, then the top 150-200 AT/SWA FO's will get them next. Then the 650 AT fo's, then the 240 SWA fo's we hired.

 

[Golden Falcon]

Replacement pilots? Probably not as many as at AA, you know the ones that screwed the Reno and TWA pilots or the ones at United who plugged the Frontier pilots in 86. So, maybe you need to define "replacement pilots".

the ones that dominated ValueJet after the Eastern strike...

 

[waveflyer]

Tejas-
That's the process- Still contemplating how to vote.
I will speak to my rep. As an 8x,xxx number, I'm not sure if it's my battle- but I think that's a good idea- but here's a reality that has nothing to do with AT, but affects this- the captains I'm flying with, who are largely unaffected, are voting with the senior FO's BECAUSE age 65 promises of a short delay in upgrade have turned out to be the full 5 years- and the lance capt deal- they just don't want to see that group see any perceived unfairness. So it's a much larger constituency than it normally would be.

I will email my rep- and I encourage others to do the same- again keep the whole deal intact, except keep the 249 AT junior captains at their equivalent AT pay and pay the top 249 senior swa FO's full capt pay. That leaves AT pilots in their seat and "unharmed" pay wise, and is more fair for our top FO's.

Since little details were available until the last few weeks, there is no way I could have made this particular suggestion before now, but I will recommend it if it is possible to tweak it- and I suggest others that feel this issue is important do the same.

Not a vote No campaign-" a good deal, but needs a tweak," campaign.

;-)
I'd love to have this behind us. Another round or two of drama is NOT appealing at all to me.

 

[dicko]

Tejas-
That's the process- Still contemplating how to vote.
I will speak to my rep. As an 8x,xxx number, I'm not sure if it's my battle- but I think that's a good idea- but here's a reality that has nothing to do with AT, but affects this- the captains I'm flying with, who are largely unaffected, are voting with the senior FO's BECAUSE age 65 promises of a short delay in upgrade have turned out to be the full 5 years- and the lance capt deal- they just don't want to see that group see any perceived unfairness. So it's a much larger constituency than it normally would be.

I will email my rep- and I encourage others to do the same- again keep the whole deal intact, except keep the 249 AT junior captains at their equivalent AT pay and pay the top 249 senior swa FO's full capt pay. That leaves AT pilots in their seat and "unharmed" pay wise, and is more fair for our top FO's.

Since little details were available until the last few weeks, there is no way I could have made this particular suggestion before now, but I will recommend it if it is possible to tweak it- and I suggest others that feel this issue is important do the same.

Not a vote No campaign-" a good deal, but needs a tweak," campaign.

;-)
I'd love to have this behind us. Another round or two of drama is NOT appealing at all to me.

By the time this deal is finished I'll be a 10 year CA who holds the same seniority as a 8XXXXXX number. That's you.

Looking forward to flying with you. Unfortunately I'll be a little senior to you Wave. So no pay bump for you.

I think you should vote NO. Lord knows you deserve CA's pay and the 32% seniority I lost. It's only fair.

 

[carpediem]

The Unfairness is the fact that a 04 hire date at SWA has only 300 -400 AAI guys in front of them out of 1800 guys. Taking a seniority number that does not belong to you in the first place is wrong. AAI is allowing SWA to grow and upgrades will happen with a fair SLI. As of right now it will take AAI guys 10 years through attrition just to get to DOH. SWA was not always been the airline of choice.

 

[madjack]

Talk to ALPA

 

[titans10]

2 or possibly 3.....

More like 22 or 23 now.

 

[Tripower455]

More like 22 or 23 now.

Not yet!

 

[DougCorp-9]

Reno air did, I believe, but not that familiar.
I don't want them losing their seat. I just wish they didn't go to SWA pay while our higher longevity FOs stay flat. It's a small segment- but it isn't right.
I say pay protect the top 249(?) swa FOs and keep the bottom 249 AT capts that have less longevity at AT pay.
Keep the seat and save the training cost- they're still making their expected money- ie: "not harmed" but the senior pilots get the pay increase.

This solves the one sticking point that seems to be giving everyone angst.

They are OUR captains seats in the aircraft that WE are bringing to the party! You act like your pilots are writing the paychecks. Give me a break.

 

[redflyer65]

No, its SWAPA payrates that you guys slide right into..wth 11yr SW FO's watching. How is this NOT a complete windfall for the AAI captains and really a kick in the sack to the AAI FO's?

RF

 

[DougCorp-9]

No, its SWAPA payrates that you guys slide right into..wth 11yr SW FO's watching. How is this NOT a complete windfall for the AAI captains and really a kick in the sack to the AAI FO's?

RF

Because I am losing 34% of my seniority! I could hold a captain seat at SW based on my DOH. Am I supposed to lose both?

 

[waveflyer]

By the time this deal is finished I'll be a 10 year CA who holds the same seniority as a 8XXXXXX number. That's you.

Looking forward to flying with you. Unfortunately I'll be a little senior to you Wave. So no pay bump for you.

I think you should vote NO. Lord knows you deserve CA's pay and the 32% seniority I lost. It's only fair.

You bring the beer, I'll bring the women. Would love to fly w/ you if you ever leave the castle atlanta. Notice my life is pretty much unchanged by his deal.
Your own DOH cost you most of that 32%- What did you think? Getting on at a young growing carrier didn't come with any risk?
It's your call on your attitude, But feel free to vote no if you want. Free country. But every play has it's consequences. As would a no vote on our end. I think it passes enormously if we pay protect our top FOs. The fine print 125%, if this and if that, bit is a joke.

 

[dicko]

Because I am losing 34% of my seniority! I could hold a captain seat at SW based on my DOH. Am I supposed to lose both?

You've been a CA at AirTran since Wave was a B1900 FO. Yet he wants to be paid SWA CA pay whilst you fly as his CA. You lose 34% seniority in order to boost his seniority and make less than him.

Got it.

 

[waveflyer]

You've been a CA at AirTran since Wave was a B1900 FO. Yet he wants to be paid SWA CA pay whilst you fly as his CA. You lose 34% seniority in order to boost his seniority and make less than him.

Got it.

It's mathematically impossible for him to have been at AT since I was a 1900 FO, since, neither of your merged companies existed then- but nice try. As for the 34%- maybe you should have got hired at Air Tran in 1980... That would've helped your cause.

My one point isn't about me, im gonna be an FO for a while-it's about our upper 6x,xxx/lower 7x,xxx FOs that have greater longevity AND seniority who will be FOs at FO pay while junior AT capts that snuck in under the wire get full SWA pay. I don't really care that you're getting full capt pay, but I do care that pilots who have been here longer and will have higher seniority - will not. My suggestion that AT capts stay at AT pay is to make it cost neutral for the company.

 

[dicko]

You bring the beer, I'll bring the women. Would love to fly w/ you if you ever leave the castle atlanta. Notice my life is pretty much unchanged by his deal.
Your own DOH cost you most of that 32%- What did you think? Getting on at a young growing carrier didn't come with any risk?
It's your call on your attitude, But feel free to vote no if you want. Free country. But every play has it's consequences. As would a no vote on our end. I think it passes enormously if we pay protect our top FOs. The fine print 125%, if this and if that, bit is a joke.

Ha !

Leave the ATL ? Despite the fact that I live 25 minutes from the airport I'll be forced to commute to OAK or LAS to keep my seat. Or become a junior FO at the same pay or less. If I'd wanted that I'd have joined the line in 2006. I respect SWA but chose a different path. It seems they all end at the same place ... Ever read 'The Alchemist' ?

If you can get yourself pay protected to fly with me then I'll cheer you on. If it comes at the expense of the only tangible thing I get out of this deal
then its a non starter.

Either way you're buying.

Cheers

 

[jonjuan]

But every play has it's consequences.

Every play also has its potential rewards. Can't win if you don't throw the ball toward the end zone.

 

[MRW]

By the time this deal is finished I'll be a 10 year CA who holds the same seniority as a 8XXXXXX number. That's you.

Looking forward to flying with you. Unfortunately I'll be a little senior to you Wave. So no pay bump for you.

I think you should vote NO. Lord knows you deserve CA's pay and the 32% seniority I lost. It's only fair.

You will also make an extra 1/2 million before he or i upgrades to Capt to force your ars further down the rsv train. I'll take your 1/2 million and sit rsv. You struck gold with this pay and you know it! Even in ARBY you were going to get bumped down...at least now you get the pay.

 

[dicko]

You will also make an extra 1/2 million before he or i upgrades to Capt to force your ars further down the rsv train. I'll take your 1/2 million and sit rsv. You struck gold with this pay and you know it! Even in ARBY you were going to get bumped down...at least now you get the pay.

I'm going to steal Gup's line; "You make me horny when you talk like that".

 

[canyonblue]

Because I am losing 34% of my seniority! I could hold a captain seat at SW based on my DOH. Am I supposed to lose both?

Your 34% is fuzzy math, because 27% of our pilots were hired before your airline even existed. You could have never perceived an AirTran pilot being on the list with them. You could hold a Captain seat based on your DOH? Guess what genius, so could almost 300 of our FO's. Cry me a river chud. uke:

 

[waveflyer]

Again, for the comprehension challenged- I'm a higher 8x,xxx#- I'm an FO on FO pay and don't want anything else until I upgrade- but I do care about the culture. And that culture has been dented by the age 65 seat grab. These same 249(?) would easily have been captains if age 65 didn't happen as fast as it did and there is residual feelings about the support Swapa gave to it- while none of the predictions about only delaying upgrade by a year or two have come true. Again, I predict there are 2-3,000 Swapa pilots who will vote no- right or wrong/wise or not if it shows these senior FOs that we care about them. If these growth predictions are true, no other segment of Swapa pilots will have had to wait as long for an upgrade- before or after- they ought to be pay protected at full 100% of the time capt pay.

 

[PTinbound]

I don't know where the 249 number comes from. I've got over 500 SWA fo's senior to me now, and guys hired at tranny a full year after I was hired here are captains there now.

 

[humveedriver]

Keep the Captain pay, take my seat too. But leave me my DOH. Deal ?

 

[waveflyer]

I don't know where the 249 number comes from. I've got over 500 SWA fo's senior to me now, and guys hired at tranny a full year after I was hired here are captains there now.

There's 249 AT captains that are junior with less longevity than current swa FOs. (if I have the number correct). That means 249 captain slots we have to deal with.

 

[jonjuan]

If these growth predictions are true

What are the growth predictions?