SWA took one step closer to being a regional carrier

[GuppyWN]

7s3w7a, You Do Realize That You Are Talking About February, Which Is A 28 Day Month? If This Were A 31 Day Month The Min Days Off Would Be 16.

gup

 

[DH2WN]

..................We'll wait until March to pass judgement then. For now I feel duped by our union.

 

[chase]

7S3W7A & dh2wn ,

I won't defend or attack the folks who worked to put it together....it is what it is....less than 40% of the folks voted...are the non-voters culparable also? Yes but again it gets to finger pointing & that doesn't do any good in my view.

Feb is a bit of anomally but my phone too has been ringing off the hook..I've just ignored it since I was sick the last few days. Can the union do better? You bet & the NC will look very closely at how this goes down & to listen to the membership....it will be "hard data" for the first time on what works & what doesn't (again a very short test period). It ain't perfect (nor permanent) & it won't ever be but an effort is being made to get to the right solution....one step back & two forward still means one step back....lets see if the two steps forward occurs & things improve....if they don't then let your voice be heard to your domicile rep & go from there. It takes no skill to destroy a house, it takes a lot of skill to build one (properly).....the union & the Company wants your thoughts/ideas on how to build a better house.

I hope I haven't come across as negative toward you voicing your complaints...they are indeed valid & shared by many (I agree with some also)...lets hope over the test period of 8-9 months we find a solution that benefits as many as possible....back to my cold medicine....cheers,

 

[Jim Smyth]

Southwest has always prided itself on being productive and rewarding those who want to fly more. The rules have been changed temporally to see if we can be more productive as a whole since flight times are historically down from where they used to be. Thats the way it is and always will be. Southwest is always looking for better ways to run our business profitably. February is a real short month with only 28 days. If you are that upset I suggest you look elsewhere for employment that will make you happier! There are plenty of guys that would Love to have your seat.

 

[DH2WN]

7S3W7A & dh2wn ,

I won't defend or attack the folks who worked to put it together....it is what it is....less than 40% of the folks voted...are the non-voters culparable also? Yes but again it gets to finger pointing & that doesn't do any good in my view.

Feb is a bit of anomally but my phone too has been ringing off the hook..I've just ignored it since I was sick the last few days. Can the union do better? You bet & the NC will look very closely at how this goes down & to listen to the membership....it will be "hard data" for the first time on what works & what doesn't (again a very short test period). It ain't perfect (nor permanent) & it won't ever be but an effort is being made to get to the right solution....one step back & two forward still means one step back....lets see if the two steps forward occurs & things improve....if they don't then let your voice be heard to your domicile rep & go from there. It takes no skill to destroy a house, it takes a lot of skill to build one (properly).....the union & the Company wants your thoughts/ideas on how to build a better house.

I hope I haven't come across as negative toward you voicing your complaints...they are indeed valid & shared by many (I agree with some also)...lets hope over the test period of 8-9 months we find a solution that benefits as many as possible....back to my cold medicine....cheers,

Chase,

First, I hope you aren't lumping me in with that 7s3w7a guy. I'm not angry and I still love this place. I'm in the group who attempted to understand the language of 31 and was told certain things by my dom. rep. He said 1 in 10 would lose a day off. I don't know about the Feb. thing because I haven't been here long enough but right now I've lost 2 days and over 500 a month in pay. I read the thing over and over and determined I need a law degree to understand it. For the hundred of thousands of dollars we pay our union guys each year you think they would put out a easy to read pamphlet about the side letter.

What should have been done is the union put out a mock schedule so we can see exactly what was going to happen. I feel like they were hiding things from us so it would pass as a test. Maybe I've been tainted by all the captains I fly with because I haven't met anyone yet who trusts our union leadership. Yet for all their complaints only 30% voted! That's terrible...

I'm willing to give it the benefit of doubt but if March shows 13 days off I'm not going to be happy because I will have lost money and time off.

What happened to fixing daily productivity instead of monthly? Why am I sitting around in some airport for 2 hours when everyone screams productivity? Why are there trips built with less than 7 hours of flying each day when we are worried about productivity?

 

[pilotyip]

DH2WN, if you have the answers to SWA productivity, you should go into manamgment and restore the status quo. BTW management gets about 8-9 days a month off.

 

[DH2WN]

DH2WN, if you have the answers to SWA productivity, you should go into manamgment and restore the status quo. BTW management gets about 8-9 days a month off.

I didn't know management spends the rest of their month away from home 24 hours a day like we do. Wow....8 days off and being away for 24 hours a day. Sucks for them, eh?

 

[airlinepilot]

PBS is a NON STARTER

PBS is NOT what we want at SWA. It will take away all the freedom we have to change our schedule, make more money and will change the vacation system as we know it. I have used PBS at another carrier and I can tell you that all the trips are given out and there is no room for change. We have lived with overlap problems and still get the job done each month. I think everyone will agree that at SWA you have the ability to expand your vacation, or change your schedule thru ELITT, giveaway or trade and you also have the option of making lots more money.....PBS makes sure all the trips are assigned, not overlap problems and it will make sure you get off the day before your vacation starts. PBS would turn our current system upside down.......the only ones that would be happy with PBS are the top 20 percent. PSB is not what we need in any shape or form.

 

[DH2WN]

If they want PBS then they should have it useable in mock up form so we can use it before implementing it. I won't vote for any changes unless we can see it first hand before it affects us.

 

[pilotyip]

You chose the life style, are you envious?

DH2WN you chose the airline pilot life style, anyone can fly an airplane, although SWA is tuff to get in with and there is an element of luck and timing which often is greater than skill and desire, you are lucky to be at SWA. If you envy management you need to go into management. I miss being a line pilot; I really do not have anywhere near the free time I did when I flew the line at other airlines. I have not restored a car in 8 years, I am lucky to keep one student in my airplane, and my flying on the weekends for the museum really straps my free time. I had much more quality time at home when I was a line pilot.

 

[DH2WN]

DH2WN you chose the airline pilot life style, anyone can fly an airplane, although SWA is tuff to get in with and there is an element of luck and timing which often is greater than skill and desire, you are lucky to be at SWA. If you envy management you need to go into management. I miss being a line pilot; I really do not have anywhere near the free time I did when I flew the line at other airlines. I have not restored a car in 8 years, I am lucky to keep one student in my airplane, and my flying on the weekends for the museum really straps my free time. I had much more quality time at home when I was a line pilot.

you missed the point of the posts...

 

[Tripower455]

I'm glad I read this thread BTW...... You guys reminded me to bid!

I took a quick look at the lines for Feb, and they don't look too bad for a non vacation month. Lots of 3 days in MCO. They look better than Jans lines, but I haven't dug all the way through to the bottom feeder stuff....yet....

Unfortunately, I am trying to maximize vacation time, and I need 4 days for that! Oh well......

 

[Widow's Son]

Yo 7S3W7A, any real pilot worth his stripes understands that Feb is a bad month to compare. PHX has 98 lines with 17 days off in only a 28 day month. The idea behind the test was variety. If you don't want one of the higher paying lines then don't bid it or if you get one give away a few days. Good luck at FedEx, you should get there right in time for the strike, and you'd look good on the panel.

 

[N1kawotg]

Haven't looked thru other bases, but there are a few 14 day off lines, reserve has the 13. You have to be super junior or DAL based to see these. We'll see in Mar.



For those wanring to punch and go to FEDeX, goodluck, especially since they won't hire a guy currently with a major unless they recently changed that rule again. Hey look interview info actually showed up on a thread-whether it is correct or old info.

 

[Jim Smyth]

PBS is NOT what we want at SWA. It will take away all the freedom we have to change our schedule, make more money and will change the vacation system as we know it. I have used PBS at another carrier and I can tell you that all the trips are given out and there is no room for change. We have lived with overlap problems and still get the job done each month. I think everyone will agree that at SWA you have the ability to expand your vacation, or change your schedule thru ELITT, giveaway or trade and you also have the option of making lots more money.....PBS makes sure all the trips are assigned, not overlap problems and it will make sure you get off the day before your vacation starts. PBS would turn our current system upside down.......the only ones that would be happy with PBS are the top 20 percent. PSB is not what we need in any shape or form.

I am in the top 20 percent and I "DONT" want PBS! I havent heard anything good about it either. You can bet you bottom dollar that this is going to be a very hot topic in this next section 6.

I met a United pilot a few months back down in the workout room in the hotel. He was in the top 5 percent in his base and he hates PBS! He said he would go back to there old system in a heart beat. With PBS there would be no overlap issues! No extended vactions/ VJA opportunaties etc if thats what you want. Not for me! YMMV

 

[Benhuntn]

I have a buddy with American...He has had 367 days off straight...course the pay has been less than he would like. I think I can live with only getting 17 days off a month.

PBS would kill any flexibility we have in our schedules. I prefer to make my lines better through elitt or trip/trade. I don't want the company trying make my lines better.

 

[chase]

DH2WN,

I didn't take your post as whining at all...hope I didn't imply that....the info flow was less than what most would've liked....in hindsight I think that was a sin of omission, not commission....we'll see how Feb & Mar goes, & then we'll see how the open time trips work as a solution to "productivity". Good luck on finding the lines you want....it is difficult though to tell what the "group" wants when changes are made to the scheduling process but only a small percentage vote & yet there is still criticism about "trying" new things to squeeze more out of the flying scheduling gurus....if there was an easy fix it would've occurred by now....does anyone think we have a system that couldn't be improved? I'm hopeful we'll find some choices the majority of folks can live with....until then we'll continue the test & see what happens. Thanks for the dialogue....cheers,

 

[AlbieF15]

Why does everyone want to "tar and feather" a guy who says he wants to quit his airline and go elsewhere? If several people say "no more" and walk somewhere else, what does that say to management? That is the ultimate vote of "no confidence" in the current situation.

Several folks have left JetBlue for Fedex in the last year. When the cost analysts have to look at amortizing training costs for replacement workers verses slight increases in pay and benefits, eventually if enough people leave it puts pressure on companies to keep salaries and benefits up.

I think the chance of anyone leaving SWA for another carrier is pretty slim--but again--if a guys leaves you may move up a peg and at least someone is sending a signal there are issues which could be improved.

 

[TAZ MAN]

Why does everyone want to "tar and feather" a guy who says he wants to quit his airline and go elsewhere? If several people say "no more" and walk somewhere else, what does that say to management? That is the ultimate vote of "no confidence" in the current situation.

Several folks have left JetBlue for Fedex in the last year. When the cost analysts have to look at amortizing training costs for replacement workers verses slight increases in pay and benefits, eventually if enough people leave it puts pressure on companies to keep salaries and benefits up.

I think the chance of anyone leaving SWA for another carrier is pretty slim--but again--if a guys leaves you may move up a peg and at least someone is sending a signal there are issues which could be improved.

Don't forget Albie that this pilot you are talking about is upset about something that doesn't seem to exist in full.

And most important, doesn't seem to work for the company he is saying he is leaving.

You are defending someone who is full of sh!t.

 

[AlbieF15]

...I'm not defending HIM, just saying whenever a guy says he is leaving company X the locals get all upset. My point is guys quitting is the most personal of work actions. I've heard and seen guys leave one company for another several times this year...

 

[MD-11 Pilot]

For those who are contemplating going to jetBlue, FedEx, UPS, vs SWA go to the first three.

We just implemented our new work rule changes that a whole 30% of the pilots voted on and deleted many days off that we once enjoyed while not increasing our daily productivity one bit.

We are now a regional carrier and I've just dusted off my logbook to apply to FedEx.

With all respect to pax carriers...please do not compare us to you! We are just freight dogs. I am sure Jetblue is a great company also..but do not compare us to them either...we are just freight dogs! Later in this thread we are compared to Home Depot! Please do not compare us to them! We are just freight dogs!

It really sucks to go to work and just carry boxes...no smiling passenger faces telling me what a great landing I just had..It also sucks when I have a two week long trip and just get two weeks off afterward. Then I bid a week vacation and end up with 30 days off in a row...exactly, home with the wife and kids for that long!!! It sucks!!!! Why can't I go to work for just 3 days? So what if I spend 2 days commuting for each trip; I will still be home for 24 hours in a row...One day I will grow up to be a real airline pilot!

 

[radarlove]

PBS would kill any flexibility we have in our schedules. I prefer to make my lines better through elitt or trip/trade. I don't want the company trying make my lines better.

Spoken like somebody with truly no idea of how preferential bidding works.

PBS increases flexibility by allowing you to choose the trips and put together a schedule instead of the company. Why would you think some random schedule generating dude can put together a better monthly schedule than you can? Pilots are always their own best schedulers.

I have no idea what elitt is, must be a LUV thing.

You SWA guys are so afraid of the future. I'm surprised you even use computers to bid. It might be time to enter the...eighties.

 

[viking737]

It really sucks to go to work and just carry boxes...no smiling passenger faces telling me what a great landing I just had..It also sucks when I have a two week long trip and just get two weeks off afterward. Then I bid a week vacation and end up with 30 days off in a row...exactly, home with the wife and kids for that long!!! It sucks!!!! Why can't I go to work for just 3 days? So what if I spend 2 days commuting for each trip; I will still be home for 24 hours in a row...One day I will grow up to be a real airline pilot!

??? What are you trying to say?

 

[GuppyWN]

Radar, The one thing I will NOT, UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES, consider is PBS if it turns my 7 day vacation into a 7 day vacation. Last month I had 18 days off with a 7 day vacation bid.

Can you get 3 weeks off with a one week vacation award if you have PBS?

Gup

 

[radarlove]

Radar, The one thing I will NOT, UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES, consider is PBS if it turns my 7 day vacation into a 7 day vacation. Last month I had 18 days off with a 7 day vacation bid.

Can you get 3 weeks off with a one week vacation award if you have PBS?

Gup

PBS is unrelated to vacation. It's just a way to pick the trips you want to fly and put them into your monthly schedule.

Vacation is handled differently at different companies. Bid your line on PBS, then overlay vacation pn top, what's wrong with that?

With PBS you get the month of trips you want, instead of the month of trips that some guy who doesn't know you puts together.

 

[b747dogg]

Let me see, less days off, Vote NO, I did!

Chase, have an opinion for once.

 

[Tripower455]

PBS is unrelated to vacation. It's just a way to pick the trips you want to fly and put them into your monthly schedule.

Vacation is handled differently at different companies. Bid your line on PBS, then overlay vacation pn top, what's wrong with that?

With PBS you get the month of trips you want, instead of the month of trips that some guy who doesn't know you puts together.

One of the main reasons that the company wants PBS is to turn 7 days of vacation into a 7 day vacation. As it stands now, it is very easy to turn 7 days into 17 (it used to be around 20-22. the best I ever got was 26, but the crew sodomizer figured out how to mess with it in the last year or so, or I am just unlucky in choosing vacation months). With PBS, it will build lines that end on Sat night, and start on the next Sunday, negating this current negotiated benefit.

There is NO WAY that I would ever vote for PBS at SWA. The problem with PBS is that the devil is truly in the details, and we, as a group, have a bad track record of not ironing out the gray areas before voting on contract issues, and we end up getting screwed by the fine print.

Why does scheduling need a "policy handbook" to decipher the gray areas of the contract? The contract IS the policy manual.

PBS would be an absolute disaster to our QOL.

 

[JethroF15]

With all respect to pax carriers...please do not compare us to you! We are just freight dogs. I am sure Jetblue is a great company also..but do not compare us to them either...we are just freight dogs! Later in this thread we are compared to Home Depot! Please do not compare us to them! We are just freight dogs!

It really sucks to go to work and just carry boxes...no smiling passenger faces telling me what a great landing I just had..It also sucks when I have a two week long trip and just get two weeks off afterward. Then I bid a week vacation and end up with 30 days off in a row...exactly, home with the wife and kids for that long!!! It sucks!!!! Why can't I go to work for just 3 days? So what if I spend 2 days commuting for each trip; I will still be home for 24 hours in a row...One day I will grow up to be a real airline pilot!

A total of 6 posts and you come up with this gibberish! I didn't see any previous post in this thread that attacked the freight dogs and required you to throw out a rather weak defense. As I see it you don't even have a dog in this fight. We have it good - for now - on the box side of the house. Enjoy your job and be humble. You're making the rest of us "freight dogs" look bad.

 

[USNFDX]

Spoken like somebody with truly no idea of how preferential bidding works.

PBS increases flexibility by allowing you to choose the trips and put together a schedule instead of the company. Why would you think some random schedule generating dude can put together a better monthly schedule than you can? Pilots are always their own best schedulers.

I have no idea what elitt is, must be a LUV thing.

You SWA guys are so afraid of the future. I'm surprised you even use computers to bid. It might be time to enter the...eighties.

Actualy Radarlove You have NO idea what your talking about.

PBS can be good or really really BAD depending on who is control of the software and the rule sets within. It can keep you 7 day vacation, a 17 day vacation, or it can turn 7 day vacation into a 5 day vacation (if you are a commuter). It all has do with how it's employed, and who is at the controls.

If the company (SWA, Fedex, .....) want's PBS, it's not to make your life better....IT IS TO MAXIMIZE PRODUCTIVITY, and YOU ARE NOT GOING TO LIKE IT!

Sure you can negotiate the rule sets, but in the end, as tripower stated, 'Th e devil is in the details' and the company is better when it comes to details.

 

[pilotyip]

And maximizing productivity to preserve pay levels and profitability is a bad thing?