SWA pool is starting to drain!!!

[General Lee]

I think this is one of the best examples of how Southwest pilots would be harmed by a relative seniority or even a DOH integration. Objective fact #1 - AirTran's hiring requirements have always been lower than Southwest's. Objective fact #2 - AirTran's pilot group is, on average, approximately 5 yrs. younger than Southwest's pilot group, due mostly to the lower mins. Objective Result - the average AirTran guy that is put in the list senior to a Southwest guy will be younger, and therefore remain senior to that Southwest guy for the remainder of the Southwest guy's career. Ergo, by using either of the above methods without adjusting it in some fashion, every Southwest guy's career expectation just took a huge / big negative hit. Without the 50-80% increases in compensation, QoL, etc. to mitigate those effects, that hardly seems fair. Meanwhile, no matter how this plays out, all the AirTran guys realize a career potential that was heretofore unavailable to them.

I'm not saying how this is going to (or should) go, but I do imagine that an arbitrator would have to take those facts into account to even approach something fair and equitable. Just my two cents.

Fraternally,
PapaWoody

Fraternally? After putting down the AT guys about their SWA substandard hiring practices? Really? But you are right about one thing, the AT guys on average are a lot younger. But you may want to look at the NWA and DL arbitration for answers. The NWA guys testified to the arbitrators that they deserved higher SLI because they still had a lot of Captains that were about to retire, but were still hanging on, while the DL group was younger on average thanks to more than 1500 senior Captains leaving pre-BK for their lump sums. The NWA guys thought they deserved the upgrades that were going to happen had the merger not occurred. How did that go over? The arbitrators still arrived at a relative seniority decision. It didn't seem to matter much. Sounds familiar.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[roughneck]

The arbitrators still arrived at a relative seniority decision. It didn't seem to matter much. Sounds familiar.

Merger of equals. Doesn't sound familiar at all in this case.

 

[dicko]

I think this is one of the best examples of how Southwest pilots would be harmed by a relative seniority or even a DOH integration. Objective fact #1 - AirTran's hiring requirements have always been lower than Southwest's. Objective fact #2 - AirTran's pilot group is, on average, approximately 5 yrs. younger than Southwest's pilot group, due mostly to the lower mins. Objective Result - the average AirTran guy that is put in the list senior to a Southwest guy will be younger, and therefore remain senior to that Southwest guy for the remainder of the Southwest guy's career. Ergo, by using either of the above methods without adjusting it in some fashion, every Southwest guy's career expectation just took a huge / big negative hit. Without the 50-80% increases in compensation, QoL, etc. to mitigate those effects, that hardly seems fair. Meanwhile, no matter how this plays out, all the AirTran guys realize a career potential that was heretofore unavailable to them.

I'm not saying how this is going to (or should) go, but I do imagine that an arbitrator would have to take those facts into account to even approach something fair and equitable. Just my two cents.

Fraternally,
PapaWoody

There are holes in your logic; If this goes to arbitration. If the Arbiters take the point into account, they will not look at hiring minimums. They will look at the actual or average qualifications that pilots were hired with. Take a quick peek at the minimums for DAL and FEDEX. I'm sure you realize that actual vs minimum is a large gap. Unfortunately your logic fails at this point. The fact that the AirTran pilot group is younger may be true. The reason is not because the companies published hiring minimums were lower. It's far more complicated.

 

[PapaWoody]

Fraternally? After putting down the AT guys about their SWA substandard hiring practices? Really? But you are right about one thing, the AT guys on average are a lot younger. But you may want to look at the NWA and DL arbitration for answers. The NWA guys testified to the arbitrators that they deserved higher SLI because they still had a lot of Captains that were about to retire, but were still hanging on, while the DL group was younger on average thanks to more than 1500 senior Captains leaving pre-BK for their lump sums. The NWA guys thought they deserved the upgrades that were going to happen had the merger not occurred. How did that go over? The arbitrators still arrived at a relative seniority decision. It didn't seem to matter much. Sounds familiar.


Bye Bye---General Lee

At what point did I slam the AAI guys for their hiring practices? I didn't -- what I did do was make an objective statement that their hiring minimums have always been lower than SWA's. That's not flame, it's fact, and I believe I presented it in an objective manner.

As for the rest of your post, I'm pretty sure that the Northwest guys did get some credit for the fact that they had more Captain's on the verge of retiring than Delta. I didn't live it, so not completely sure. What I am sure of is that just because you lived through one SLI/merger doesn't make you an expert on how this one will go. Especially since the situation is completely different in this case. You like to throw out the contractual gains by Northwest pilots were on average about 30%, but that isn't borne out by the arbitrated decision which (and I quote) states "Northwest Pilots enjoyed immediate benefits averaging 9.51% across the group." In other words, nowhere near the average (approx.) 65% "immediate benefits" that will be enjoyed by the AAI pilots. Just one example of how you are full of it when you talk about how similar these situations are.

In closing, please don't try to put words or intentions in my mouth, General. I didn't put down the AAI guys, and have no intention of doing so. And in the future, when you spout off facts and figures trying to support your assertions, it would help if you actually did some research and used accurate information. Or would that get in the way of you preaching your anti-SWA vitriol? Enjoy your decades as an FO.

PapaWoody

 

[PapaWoody]

There are holes in your logic; If this goes to arbitration. If the Arbiters take the point into account; They will not look at hiring minimums. They will look at the actual or average qualifications that pilots were hired with. Take a quick peek at the minimums for DAL and FEDEX. I'm sure you realize that actual vs minimum is a large gap. Unfortunately your logic fails at this point. The fact that the AirTran pilot group is younger may be true. The reason is not because the companies published hiring minimums were lower. It's far more complicated.

With all due respect, D, I think that is at least part of it. I'm sure there are other factors, such as hiring preferences by the different companies, but I think SWAPA can make a fairly convincing case that the different hiring minimums played a part, especially pre-2002. Again, not a slam on the AAI pilot group, just trying to explain why a relative integration would have a significant negative impact on SWA pilots' career expectations.

Fraternally,
PapaWoody

PS I put the paragraph break in that original post just for you.

 

[dicko]

With all due respect, D, I think that is at least part of it. I'm sure there are other factors, such as hiring preferences by the different companies, but I think SWAPA can make a fairly convincing case that the different hiring minimums played a part, especially pre-2002. Again, not a slam on the AAI pilot group, just trying to explain why a relative integration would have a significant negative impact on SWA pilots' career expectations.

Fraternally,
PapaWoody

PS I put the paragraph break in that original post just for you.

You really don't have the data to say that. Your opinion is based on anecdote and pride. Which is generally followed by a fall ...... For me anyway. Ironically, I couldn't put paragraphs in my last post.

Pilots were interviewed at AirTran and rejected. Followed by being hired at Southwest. It's a fickle game and Arbiters know that.

This is pointless. It will work out for all of us. My watch is bigger though ...

Cheers.

 

[johnsonrod]

Merger of equals. Doesn't sound familiar at all in this case.

During their merger, Delta and Northwest were both legacies and had been to BK. SWA and Airtran are both currently profitable LCCs. I think Delta was a bigger airline overall, but relative seniority seemed to happen. Just be ready to eat humble pie.

 

[GuppyWN]

No RD you are wrong. Career expectations are all about the type equipment you fly. That is why a career at Southern Cargo is worth as much as a career at UPS because both pilots will be on the 747.

You gotta admit........... that's a good point.

Gup

 

[GuppyWN]

The big variable is what roughneck speaks of. I really don't see Gary allowing this to turn into USair vs. West. He'd rather not have the deal in the end and run two seperate ops in the meantime. He won't flush 40yrs of history.

Gary is keeping his distance and the SLI talks prolly won't get really cranking until after the closing and it's too late.

Gup

 

[GuppyWN]

Question for the SWA guys..................How upset would you guys be if this went straight DOH? I, being Airtran, certainly would hope for better, but im curious on what you guys think. My guess is many on this forum(SWA folks) would think that even DOH is unfair. If DOH was awarded, please explain how a single SWA pilot would be negatively affected.

As long as I'm senior to Ty, which I would be, I'm fine.

Gup

 

[GuppyWN]

During their merger, Delta and Northwest were both legacies and had been to BK. SWA and Airtran are both currently profitable LCCs. I think Delta was a bigger airline overall, but relative seniority seemed to happen. Just be ready to eat humble pie.

One of them hadn't recently furloughed and the pay difference wasn't 40-70%.

Gup

 

[Lonestar]

Gary is keeping his distance and the SLI talks prolly won't get really cranking until after the closing and it's too late.

Gup

Guppy, I agree that we won't see Gary actively engaging in SLI talks. At the same time though, I don't see Gary allowing his legacy to be the guy that flushed the SWA culture down the toilet. A bad SLI for SWA pilots WILL create the next East/West saga.

DOCC has nothing to do with being 'too late' for anything. At DOCC, all that will have happened is that AirTran merged with Guadalupe Holdings, Inc.

AirTran is a predominantly 717 carrier, and as such can effectively be a separate carrier with no real consequence. If Gary makes the choice to keep the 717 operation separate, there will be no SLI. (I hear Gary has told the ATN MEC Chair this very same point!)

 

[Lonestar]

If the Arbiters take the point into account, they will not look at hiring minimums. They will look at the actual or average qualifications that pilots were hired with.

You may well be correct here. Either way, the result will be the same.

Throughout the history of ValuJet/AirTran, those hired worked more days for less money than their counterparts at nearly every legacy, LCC and UPS/FedEx.
Anyone who disagrees with this logic should then ask, "why AirTran"?
Given the choice, why would any competitive applicant intentionally choose the lowest option in terms of pay, benefits, QOL, etc. Many AT pilots decided these things were important to them, so you get the high % attrition from AT to SWA, CAL, DAL, UPS, FedEx, UAE, Cathay, etc (for years, nearly half the hiring at AT was to replace pilots lost to attrition).

There are many current AT captains who got hired with less than competitive mins for nearly every legacy and UPS/FedEx. The exception was the hiring in the mid to late 2000s when there weren't as many carriers hiring relative to the number of qualified applicants. They are young as a group because of this. This youth absolutely can have a negative impact on SWA pilots and will be a legitimate factor in any SLI decision ( if there is an SLI at all).

 

[johnsonrod]

One of them hadn't recently furloughed and the pay difference wasn't 40-70%.

Gup

There was a large pay difference, one had a pension, and the other was actively hiring.

 

[Max Powers]

There was a large pay difference, one had a pension, and the other was actively hiring.

Not only that but the airline being acquired (nwa) got to keep their pension to this day. Meaning some of the payroll resources are going only to NWA pilots. It is a frozen pension but for many it is an excellent pension. Something Delta will not see one dime of.

Talk about life being unfair. But from the NWA pilots perspective they didn't ask to be bought out. They do benefit from the buyout immensely but delta shareholders are the ones who paid the money to get it done.

To recap NWA got a nice pay raise kept their pensions and in many cases got even better than relative seniority in some cases they got less. AAI-SWA will be much the same.

Remeber SWA pilots are not giving us airtran guys anything. SWA shareholders are giving us the pay benefits etc. In other words SWA pilots are not taking a pay cut so we can make more.

 

[dicko]

The exception was the hiring in the mid to late 2000s when there weren't as many carriers hiring relative to the number of qualified applicants. They are young as a group because of this. This youth absolutely can have a negative impact on SWA pilots and will be a legitimate factor in any SLI decision ( if there is an SLI at all).

Hey,

Since 2002 the qualifications of the pilots hired at AirTran far exceeded the minimums of Legacies and SWA. We know there were exceptions. Probably 5 to 10 percent. One in my class.

That is over 70% of AirTrans seniority list.

If you look at the industry since that date it explains some of the answer to the question "why". An example; I would have lost a great deal of money by going to Delta. I'd still be losing money. Each case is different obviously.

I don't know whether the youth disadvantages SWA and I don't know if the Arbiters would account for it. It would certainly be an interesting exercise to attempt to collect the exact data required for an accurate comparison. :erm: Age versus the individuals qualifications on date of hire

Edit: I forgot about the 737 type requirement. My numbers are based on no requirement for a 737 type at time of employment. No, I dont want to restart the endless discussion regarding its value.

 

[Ty Webb]

To Lonestar and PapaW.-

Be careful about the "hiring minimums" argument. Most of the pilots hired by AirTran had experience that vastly exceeded the minimums.

You might find that, while SWA's "minimums" were higher, that the average AirTran hire actually had more flight time, especially if SWA hired more fighter types and corporate guys, while AirTran hired a bunch of Delta retirees and legacy furloughees.

 

[jonjuan]

Not only that but the airline being acquired (nwa) got to keep their pension to this day. Meaning some of the payroll resources are going only to NWA pilots. It is a frozen pension but for many it is an excellent pension. Something Delta will not see one dime of.

Talk about life being unfair. But from the NWA pilots perspective they didn't ask to be bought out. They do benefit from the buyout immensely but delta shareholders are the ones who paid the money to get it done.

To recap NWA got a nice pay raise kept their pensions and in many cases got even better than relative seniority in some cases they got less. AAI-SWA will be much the same.

Remeber SWA pilots are not giving us airtran guys anything. SWA shareholders are giving us the pay benefits etc. In other words SWA pilots are not taking a pay cut so we can make more.

Bongo-this post is spot on. CAs will remain as CAs and F/Os about to upgrade will also upgrade soon. southwest was out of ideas to grow which is why gk decided to buy aai. southwest ladies lose zero in this deal gk put together. You get to keep all your toys. You just have to share now.

 

[redflyer65]

There was a large pay difference, one had a pension, and the other was actively hiring.

You guys are really comparing NWA/DL vs SW/AAI?

I'm sorry but that's not even close to similar.

Guppy,

Your numbers are off, its more like 50-100 percent pay difference. NW/DL wasn't even close to that disparity.

 

[redflyer65]

Bongo-this post is spot on. CAs will remain as CAs and F/Os about to upgrade will also upgrade soon. southwest was out of ideas to grow which is why gk decided to buy aai. southwest ladies lose zero in this deal gk put together. You get to keep all your toys. You just have to share now.

I see this going more like the TranStar aquisition. History may repeat itself.