SWA plan for 15% ROIC

[UALX727]

#2. If I didn't gain 32% seniority, you didn't lose 32% seniority, simple math.

I'm no math guru...but I did hear it explained once that it had to do with the differing sizes of the pilot groups. Basically, because AirTran had a much smaller pilot group relative to the SWA pilot group. Ex..in order for the SWA group to gain X amount of seniority, the Airtran group would lose 3 times X seniority...simply due to the math.
Not trying to stir the pot, maybe someone could explain it better. And I can verify that 32% number as accurate, at least for some of the AAI guys. It varied depending on where you were on the list. Looking at my numbers, I was a 30% dude.

 

[XGmaninGA]

Nevermind...it's just a job.

 

[maxblast72]

#2. If I didn't gain 32% seniority, you didn't lose 32% seniority, simple math.

Sorry, but I can't stand hearing that response, it makes no sense.

Canyonblue, it is a function of the fact that Southwest had about 3.5 times the number of pilots as AirTran did. The #1 pilot at SWA gained 0% relative seniority (since he is still #1). From there, the relative seniority gained line for Southwest pilots slants up to until gains are in the high single digits And pretty much stays there to the bottom of the SWA list (sorry don't have my old charts handy for exact numbers).

The #1 pilot at AirTran lost about 17% relative seniority (now about 1,350 on ISL). From there, the losses go up to the plateau with losses in the low to mid 30%'s before coming down to 0% along the staple line. If I remember right the average relative seniority loss for the AirTran pilots was just under 25%. To use real life numbers, I was 44% on the pre-merger AirTran list while I am around 75% on the ISL.

I hope that helps. If we ever get to fly a trip together, I can bore the crap out of you with more numbers if you want

Seems to be the point with many of us, how did this acquisition help me?

Southwest's growth prospects are better post AirTran acquisition than before. That is part of why Gary Kelly decided to buy AirTran.

The ISL is set, integrating the 2 airlines will accelerate later this year when the B717s start heading to Delta, and the DRC claim will head to a neutral arbitrator for resolution. Now, it is up to all 8,000 of us on the ISL to help Gary Kelly achieve his 15% ROIC target. Block hour growth (and thus more pilots) is the only thing that will speed up the healing process for both sides.

 

[humveedriver]

AT pilots look at relative seniority and SWA pilots don't. That's what is simple. What may help some AT pilots is if they look at how much seniority they lost from DOH. Based on my AT hire date I should have been right around 50% on the combined list. I ended up at 59%. That doesn't sound as horrible as the 30% relative loss I took. I never expected to get relative in arbitration. And I'm never going to get that seniority back, so why dwell on it?

 

[slaquer5]

Now that would be funny, sticking a bunch of Eastern scabs at the top of the SWA list.

I would have quit.This place would not have lasted .

 

[madjack]

Max,

What was the opening positions from the AT MC and the SWA NC?...maybe you can't elaborate...thanks

 

[scoreboardII]

DOH was non starter. Never applied in arbitration other than between ALPA.

 

[FlyinGuy]

There are so many different statistical ways to look at these numbers. If you look at my SLI snapshot, it shows a small gain. If you in turn look at my retirement snapshot, I will lose all that gain by the time I retire. When I analyze my numbers and my QOL going forward, I did not get anything from this deal. That said, we all have numbers and spreadsheets that tell our story.

Guess what, it is what it is and I cannot change a thing. All I can do is have a positive attitude going forward.

 

[Ty Webb]

Guess what, it is what it is and I cannot change a thing. All I can do is have a positive attitude going forward.

"I'm trying, Ringo . . . . I'm trying reeeeaaalll hard to be the Shepherd".

 

[canyonblue]

AT pilots look at relative seniority and SWA pilots don't. That's what is simple. What may help some AT pilots is if they look at how much seniority they lost from DOH. Based on my AT hire date I should have been right around 50% on the combined list. I ended up at 59%. That doesn't sound as horrible as the 30% relative loss I took. I never expected to get relative in arbitration. And I'm never going to get that seniority back, so why dwell on it?

Guys, I understand relative seniority, I just don't understand your point in using it in an argument. Since relative seniority would have never happened, why would anyone use that percentage to base an argument on? That was the only point I was making. I wish my relative seniority went up 32%, it didn't, far from it. I agree that the best way to view it is to look at seniority lost from DOH.

 

[Phlintstone]

I think AT folks harp on the relative seniority thing because it shows how much their cheese has been moved. It is a lot to deal with for some folks. I know some thought that relative seniority was what AT pilots should hold out for...delusional if you ask me. But losing EVERY captain seat was pretty far fetched too.

Phred

 

[waveflyer]

Let it go, on both sides, just let it go-
You know, because its been done for a long time

 

[dicko]

AT pilots look at relative seniority and SWA pilots don't. That's what is simple. What may help some AT pilots is if they look at how much seniority they lost from DOH. Based on my AT hire date I should have been right around 50% on the combined list. I ended up at 59%. That doesn't sound as horrible as the 30% relative loss I took. I never expected to get relative in arbitration. And I'm never going to get that seniority back, so why dwell on it?

You might want to check again, or I've screwed it up - based on DOH i'd be around 47 - 49% and I think you're senior to me. I lose around 20% from that.

No Darth. I don't care if you think DOH was a non starter. Shut your eyes or put your helmet back on if it annoys you

 

[Dan Roman]

Let it go, on both sides, just let it go-
You know, because its been done for a long time

Wave, the problem is....if a company conducts itself the way SWA did in a merger, it has consequences. They don't go away. Right wrong or indifferent, the AirTran folks were lied to and denied the right to letting a neutral arbitrator settle what is always an emotional and volatile issue (merger). SWA simply did not handle it in a way that "should make us all proud", to paraphrase Kelly when the merger was announced.
The worst is the SWA pilots that have the audacity to tell the AirTran folks to "just get over it" and let's all be friends now. Human nature simply doesn't work that way.

 

[madjack]

Unbelievable

 

[FlyinGuy]

the AirTran folks were lied to and denied the right to letting a neutral arbitrator settle what is always an emotional and volatile issue (merger).

AT chose their path. If SWA told the truth about the 717 from the beginning, this would have been worse for the AT folks. They could have voted no and let this go to arby, but over 80% said that they wanted to take the deal.

 

[Dan Roman]

AT chose their path. If SWA told the truth about the 717 from the beginning, this would have been worse for the AT folks. They could have voted no and let this go to arby, but over 80% said that they wanted to take the deal.

I'm on the ouside and not seeing this as close as you, but....it's my understanding that GK threatened the AirTran pilots if they voted no and they allowed a neutral party to settle the issue? Didn't he say something like "we will not merge the 2 operations if you vote against the second offer"?
Obviously they had a gun put to their head if that's the case. As I said, doing business like that has consequences.

 

[slaquer5]

Wave, the problem is....if a company conducts itself the way SWA did in a merger, it has consequences. They don't go away. Right wrong or indifferent, the AirTran folks were lied to and denied the right to letting a neutral arbitrator settle what is always an emotional and volatile issue (merger). SWA simply did not handle it in a way that "should make us all proud", to paraphrase Kelly when the merger was announced.
The worst is the SWA pilots that have the audacity to tell the AirTran folks to "just get over it" and let's all be friends now. Human nature simply doesn't work that way.

I would expect nothing more from a SWA hater.Most see right through you, but keep on trucking . Even a blind squirrel gets a nut.

 

[humveedriver]

You might want to check again, or I've screwed it up - based on DOH i'd be around 47 - 49% and I think you're senior to me. I lose around 20% from that.

No Darth. I don't care if you think DOH was a non starter. Shut your eyes or put your helmet back on if it annoys you

Just when I thought there was a little heroin left in the syringe. OK I get to retire senior. Like the last six months of my career I get to kick dirt and and rocks on all the poor bastards trying to crawl up the seniority hill..

 

[Dan Roman]

I would expect nothing more from a SWA hater.Most see right through you, but keep on trucking . Even a blind squirrel gets a nut.

I would say the fact that just because I offer an opinion that you don't agree with hardly makes me a "hater". My point is simply an observation. I've been through this before, but for obvious reasons I do take an interest in mergers and how they are conducted. Fortunately, if it were to happen to us it won't be SWA!
Besides my take on the merger, you can hardly define me as a SWA "hater" Kind of sounds like a little kid that doesn't get what they want and yells to their parent "you hate me!"

 

[slaquer5]

I would say the fact that just because I offer an opinion that you don't agree with hardly makes me a "hater". My point is simply an observation. I've been through this before, but for obvious reasons I do take an interest in mergers and how they are conducted. Fortunately, if it were to happen to us it won't be SWA!
Besides my take on the merger, you can hardly define me as a SWA "hater" Kind of sounds like a little kid that doesn't get what they want and yells to their parent "you hate me!"

So now your the parent , you know what is best.


Why don't you walk into the SWA GO and tell them you need to meet with Gary and tell him all he needs to fix.

I am guessing your to busy running HA, with all your knowledge .

 

[dicko]

Just when I thought there was a little heroin left in the syringe. OK I get to retire senior. Like the last six months of my career I get to kick dirt and and rocks on all the poor bastards trying to crawl up the seniority hill..

Daaaaaamn. You play hard.

I was hoping that I'd screwed up the numbers. I prefer your calculator. The 'Darth' comment was for Scoreboard. It's our special affectionate nickname.

 

[scoreboardII]

You might want to check again, or I've screwed it up - based on DOH i'd be around 47 - 49% and I think you're senior to me. I lose around 20% from that.

No Darth. I don't care if you think DOH was a non starter. Shut your eyes or put your helmet back on if it annoys you

Ah man, dissing the Darth balloon, the huge manatee!

 

[Dan Roman]

So now your the parent , you know what is best.


Why don't you walk into the SWA GO and tell them you need to meet with Gary and tell him all he needs to fix.

I am guessing your to busy running HA, with all your knowledge .

OK, I voice an opinion (on a web board that is specifically for pilots from ALL airlines) you disagree with me but you don't don't have a good rebuttal, so you think throwing stones will make your point? Kind of childish again...I didn't say I know best, but I don't know how you can deny that the way SWA handled the merger is certainly nothing to boast about and if it's what they want, fine, but it does have far reaching consequences. Simple observation is all.

 

[j41driver]

I agree that the best way to view it is to look at seniority lost from DOH.

DOH would've put me at about 62%. I actually ended up at 86%. Whatever. For me, the best way to look at it is "It's over and done with". Guys are pissed on both sides and probably will be for a long time if not for the remainder of their careers. That's their choice. I'm just focusing on having a positive attitude. Makes life much easier.

 

[waveflyer]

Dan, you're stuck on repeat from years ago-
I never said get over it- I said let it go and there's a distinction- nobody's minds changing and all the arguments were made a long time ago- the record is just skipping
And yes, you know you're a hater- and I appreciate that Dan
We'll keep that in mind when GK buys you- I'm positive your group will be way tougher than PCL, Lear, and dicko's group -...(sigh...)

((Whisper was that enough forum fodder for you to hate on Dan?)

 

[FlyinGuy]

...it's my understanding that GK threatened the AirTran pilots if they voted no and they allowed a neutral party to settle the issue? Didn't he say something like "we will not merge the 2 operations if you vote against the second offer"?

What he actually did was tip his cards a bit. He was letting them know that he was going to dump the 717 (before saying so public) and if he let that cat out of the bag, things would be a whole lot different. This is where many of the SWA guys have a beef with GK.

All that being said, AT guys see it different than SWA guys. That is where we stand and we all move on from here. Some will be angry til retirement some will deal with it and move on. So best of luck to us all.

 

[SWA/FO]

Southwest Airlines and Volaris have announced an end to their codeshare agreement effective February 22, 2013. Although no new bookings will be accepted, customers holding tickets for future travel will be able to contact Southwest and Volaris for assistance through August 9, 2013.

Moving forward, as a result of hard-fought contractual gains in our collective bargaining agreement and strategic work by SWAPA's negotiators via Side Letter 12 which carved out Volaris by name, the Company is now extremely limited in regard to codeshare. This codeshare protection is unparalleled in the industry.

The Company may not engage in any domestic, near-international, or far-international codeshare. The only exception remaining is for regional aircraft to provide inter-­island codeshare service within the Hawaiian Islands or inter-­island codeshare service within the Caribbean Islands.

Take that Trannys!!!.... this is your future Union working to protect your job(s).... you may or may not want. NO OTHER AIRLINE has this agreement in place. Be thankful, you work for a Company that cares and a Union that will protect you. The silver lining, bitches!!! Enjoy your Families and your 3.4% profit sharing check for 2012.

Lets make it bigger next year, when we dump your Fugly DC-9s!!!!! Peace!

 

[Just thinking]

Those fugly dc 9s were quite productive in generaating millions and millions of dollars in bag fees. So much so that the overlord had deemed it appropriate to raise bag fees..... you are welcome for the profit sharing. When will you be able to single engine taxi now that your type rated fos can st art an engine?

 

[SWA/FO]

We are learning how to start the engines. Maybe a couple of months more.

Your DC9s are doing so great ...we are paying delta to take them. YOUR welcome for your profit sharing check.... Your welcome for having a job, thousands would die for... Without holding the actual qualifications to hold the job or interview for.