SWA or DAL

[737 Pylt]

..........while you are busy paying off your credit card, cus Delta doesn't pay for lodging while you're in training.

repeat after me: Delta, Delta, Delta, no $$$ cattle $$$$$ call $$$$ for $$$ you. You are better then that....$$$$ you don't need their money $$$$.

So how do you go about paying off that heavy loan for that 737 type?

737

 

[jherk02]

Just curious why you dont see all the altern ego LCC airlines (ie Skybus, JB, AT, VA, and maybe more to come) all encroaching domestically as a threat to SWA over the next ten years?

Well, Skybus and VA haven't even flown yet. And even if JB and AT have a similar product, they just don't have the mass or the name recognition yet. The legacies used to be able to sell tickets based on their brand name. Not so much anymore. I think the only airline that has good name brand recognition is SWA.

When you can pick up the paper and routinely read that a new LCC has opened up a route and forced SWA out of a market...then I'll buy that there is a legitimate competator. This is my main point. If DAL competes with AA, CAL or United (the usual suspects) on a route (with no home field advantages), I don't know who will win out. If SWA decides to compete, my money would be on them every time. So for ACL's career planning, he should go with the guy that can still dictate the market...especially if he wants to live in Dallas.

10 years from now, sure one might be threat. But for career planning in 2007, SWA still has too much quality and mass and is uniquely good at what they do. Best case for DAL is that they can get back in the game and give a bunch of equals a run for their money.

It would seem to me that international is the place to be with Asia growing faster than any other economy and international landing slots working as a natural barrier to entry for new blood such as so called "LCC international operators" trying to get in.

I don't know the intricacies of international expansion. But it seems to me that it is just a business decision like anything else. I bet SWA will be able to find a way around the barriers when the time comes.

 

[FlyBoeingJets]

1) If US Airways is making money now out of BK already I would say there is a very high probability Delta will emerge and be profitable in not too long as well

2) Dont be surprised when you see Delta bank a half billion dollar year after having shed so much operating cost after 911. I predict this will happen no later than three years from now in 2010. This will finaly put the pilots back in the drivers seat for negotiations again.

3) I have a hard time believing the 777 and potentialy 787 will pay less than the SWA 737 for very long. Prior to 911 wasnt the top pay on the 777 over $300 an hour at Delta? Food for thought anyway. SWA is a great operation and there are many positives things to be said about it but if you went on historical data going with the top player at any given time usually means you will be much lower on the totem pole later on.

4) My dad had a standing offer with TWA (they were the bomb diggity then) back in the sixties but for some reason (hes still not sure why) he stayed at a smaller operation. after 37 years of flying, one buyout and three mergers he ended up number one at NWA his last three years making a paycheck he never would have dreamed of (hes a very conservative guy with money). His pilot brethren over at TWA were by then making half his wage and ultimately as we all know TWA went under.

5) You wont know if you made the right choice until the end of your career but look at history...Good Luck!

1) I take an alternate view. The legacies are competing on cost and Delta will have to lower their's again. But it is a positive overall. Delta will not go away.

2) They need that kind of bank just to get back on their feet. It will be a couple of years of that before traction is regained. Airplane orders will suck a lot of cash. I personally think the traction will still be weak for a long time.

3) International ops subsidizes the higher cost parts of the legacies. Pay will come up, but I bet later and less than we think. If you talk pilot costs you should look at total costs and CASM's. I believe the biggest lesson from the past is company health related to CASM. When your operation has high costs the pilots could almost work for free and it would be too much. With the hedges almost null this year, you'll see how the cost issue will still come into play. Anyone can make money in the good times, its the bad times and recovery that count most.

4) I'm glad he made out. Some Morris Air guys are very happy SWA bought them. ATA, Kiwi and National brothers wish someone had bought them out. TWA got bought out too, just at the wrong time and under poor circumstances. "Waiting to get bought out" is a not how I want to play my career. Timing was good for those who retired in the '90s.

5) Very true.

 

[328dude]

So how do you go about paying off that heavy loan for that 737 type?

737

I did it in a month and a half. :beer:

 

[Bucky19]

General Lee,
You have some bad information about the SWA schedule. The system wide average legs/day is slightly less than 3. Remove Dallas and the average is 2.7 legs/day.
I haven't flown 5 legs in years and have never flown 6 in a day. Our contractual average workdays/month is 13.
You can easily work 13 days/month and make 200K.

Not sure where you're getting your information on schedules, etc.

Fly safe.

 

[capt. megadeth]

What's up Mega ? How's ONT treating you ?

It's great. I'm in the Pac Rim right now.

 

[737 Pylt]

I did it in a month and a half. :beer:

I guess that's pretty easy when you live in your parents' basement!
:laugh: :laugh:

737

 

[SWA/FO]

Better then a single-wide in ATL.

 

[Heavy Set]

General Lee,
You have some bad information about the SWA schedule. The system wide average legs/day is slightly less than 3. Remove Dallas and the average is 2.7 legs/day.
I haven't flown 5 legs in years and have never flown 6 in a day. Our contractual average workdays/month is 13.
You can easily work 13 days/month and make 200K.

Not sure where you're getting your information on schedules, etc.

Fly safe.

Even I know you guys fly, on average, more legs than 3 legs a day. I talked to a friend of mine and his 4 day had 5 legs the first day, 5 on the second, 2 on the third which still had 7.5 hours, and 5 on the last day. He said he was exhausted. You can't fool anyone, you guys work the hardest. GL isn't lying.

 

[Turbojet]

How old are you? You say that at SWA you will only make top 64-69% in seniority. I have been here for 2 years and am already at 79% system senioity. SWA still has a ton of jets on order and who knows about possible future orders. Upgrade is still 5-6 years and at that point you can expect to make $180,000+ a year until you top out just over $200,000. And that is by just flying your line and averaging 17-18 days off. I made $102,000 year two without picking up extra flying since im a commuter. Figure another $10-$15 grand a year (for years 3-5) unitil upgrade.

If it were me, I would pick the best job that gave me the best quality of life rather than how big my jet was or what the overnight city was. Living in base is HUGE for the quality of life decision. Do you have kids? Why does your wife like Dallas so much. I am willing to bet that she has family there and it might be nice for her to have kids around family (grandparents ect...) especially when you are out of town. I was kind of surprised by your comment that Dallas is were SHE wants to live but not you??? If you love your wife let her be a part in the decision on where she is going to have to spend the next 20+ years while YOU are gone...unles you are already planning on finding a new wife.

I was a United furloughee and live in the northwest. I always wanted to be based in Seatle for ease of commuting. I recently resigned my United recall and will stay at SWA because it is the sure thing. With mergers, long upgrades, low pay, and highly leveraged finincials, I couldn't see going back to United. Even if United's pay once again goes above SWA's pay, the higher earnings I make at SWA now with quicker upgrade factored in will most likley exceed those that I could ever make at United when compounding interest if taken in account.

What ever your decision is, good luck. IMHO, chosing Delta will lock you into a commute from Texas for the rest of your career and lower earnings for at lest the next 10 years....chose wisely!

 

[firstthird]

I know I have looked at the numbers and when I would retire at SWA I would only be in the 64-66 percent. IE a long way from the top. ...
With DAL I would be in the top 15-30 on the seniority list. Even if we merged with NWA it would be the same since NWA has a very top heavy list. Upgrade would be about the same at either place. Somewhere around the 10 to 15 year mark

Not sure I understand how this would be a true statement. Presumably you mean you'd be in the 65% as a captain? But do you mean the top 15-30 on the DAL list number vs. percentage? Even if both are percentage, I'm not sure I get how that could be true. Especially considering Delta just lost most of their senior captains over 55 or so. Meaning, very few retirements for a while. The only way you'd top out at 65% for SWA is if you got hired around 50+ years of age, and if that is where you are, you will not make top 15-30 at Delta.

could someone explain to me what I'm missing or is ACL just screwing everyone around? Did the GUAT (is that what he was called) get someone's log in?

And I'm not sure where you got that upgrade at SWA would be 10-15 years. Right not it is 6.5 to 7 and these are the guys that sat through 2 years of post 9/11 anemic growth. You may want to check your assumptions prior to making uninformed opinions based on poor fact checking.

Then again, if Delta is your thing, just go there; you don't need us to pat you on the back and applaud your decision. but if you are genuinely on the fence, I'd check your information one more time.

 

[737 Pylt]

Better then a single-wide in ATL.

Is it better than your trailer in topeka??
I bet moving day is fun without a pick up truck!:laugh:

737

 

[ACL65PILOT]

Guys it is percentile. 65 percentile puts you in the top 35% of the pilots. IE 35 out of 100. Sorry to confuse.

In a response about my wife. She has some strong ties to the Dallas area and I do not. I agree 100 % with you and would not want a divorce. With that said I live in ATL and would have to move. Literally if I got the SWA job I think that she would move then next day. She wants back that bad. Even though she says that ATL is fine. Basically she was upset I did not take the World gig for DAL.
I would have to commute out of the Luv hub either way to see upgrade before I am 50. I am 32, but I am sure upgrade out of there will easily pass the 15 year mark. Either way I think that I will have to commute.
You all know that whatever an upgrade is not is not what it will be when you get there. We had that at my airline back in 01. We were hiring guys and upgrading them in six months. People jumped ship at places like Horizon to come here and they just upgraded after seven year.
I may be wrong but I do not see SWA being able to attain the level of growth that they have for the next five to ten years. They will have to plateau. It is inevitable.
You are correct in stating that DAL is on shaky ground. I think that the only place for the near term where that is not true is the cargo industry. SWA is a great place, I am just trying to weigh all of the pro's and con's I would more than likely have to quit my job at DAL to get the type. I cannot bypass there for a class that fits my schedule better. Like I stated in a previous post. I would not know until may and I will already be in class by then. That is a tough call to make. IMHO.

 

[Skyboy722]

Guys it is percentile. 65 percentile puts you in the top 35% of the pilots. IE 35 out of 100. Sorry to confuse.

I am 32,

As mentioned before, I think you got ahold of some bad info here. If you were hired at SW at 32 you would retire WAY, WAY higher than the top 35% percent. If that were true, it would mean that if you were hired today, and the company didn't grow one percent during your entire career, that 1,855 pilots at SW RIGHT NOW would have to be younger than you. It's not even close.

 

[Skyboy722]

I looked it up, just for giggles:

If you were hired today, and your birthday was Jan 1st:

You would retire #102 at the company, regardless of retirement age, if EVERYONE senior to you stays to mandatory retirement age.

If the company stopped all growth today, and never grew by another pilot, that would equate to retiring in the top 1.9%.

If the company reached 8,000 pilots (predicted): top 1.2%

You get the picture.

Good luck with your decision. It's a tough decision but a good problem to have.