SWA or DAL

[jherk02]

My .02c

Go to SWA. You cannot directly control the business plan or future of either company, so you may as well try to control where you live. Also, I hear it is a good time to quickly get back to Dallas at SWA because of the recent increase in flying.

Your upgrade to Captain will be slow at both airlines unless you are willing to commute (LGA or BWI). DFW has one of the lowest cost-of-living in the country, so it is a good place to be an FO for a while.

Even if DAL completely turns it around, they still have to deal with some serious competition from other legacies that are at least their equal not to mention SWA itself. I still don't think SWA's business plan has any serious comptetion.

Also, my bet is that over the course of your career SWA will go international. When that happens, I think the legacies will crumble into whatever their final form will be.

Good Luck!

 

[mokitty]

I have had an interesting development.
I have been hired by DAL and am waiting for a class. I just received an e-mail inviting me to a SWA interview in April. What are your thoughts on this. We would love to get back to TX, but is SWA a good move for someone who has a job at DAL and is one of the first 30 or so hired.


Anyone?

You are in a great position. Something to think about. Two former DAL pilots were in my class last year at SWA. One was the old man and had taken an early retirement. The other left as a FO with just under 10 years at DAL.

 

[radar_contact]

Choose Delta!!

Quite true.
I have never really wanted to go to SWA as weird as that sounds. I love the pilots and all, but hate the legs and the cattle care mentality. I do like the diversity that DAL has to offer. Now if they would open up the DFW base again all would be right in the world.

With that attitude, why even waste your time (and theirs) by going to Dallas?
Trust me, they'll see right through that and you won't have a decision to make.

Do yourself and everyone else a favor and stick with DAL.

Just my .02

 

[chris69]

Take the interview. If you get hired and turn it down...oh well. You may be pleasantly surprised by the interview and find out that you really want to be there once you see the place and meet the people. I interviewed in PHX in 01, had SWA as #2 in my mind before than, but came away excited and pumped afterwards. Never saw DAL until IOE, so I probably would have been more pumped if I'd interviewed there. Give it a shot, you never know.

 

[Howard Hughes]

I know I have looked at the numbers and when I would retire at SWA I would only be in the 64-66 percent. IE a long way from the top. It does not really matter though since they all fly the same equipment and get paid the same. It would just be a QOL issue. I do know that they have 131 more aircraft that need to come, but frankly I think that after that their rapid growth and business plan will hit a few potholes.
With DAL I would be in the top 15-30 on the seniority list. Even if we merged with NWA it would be the same since NWA has a very top heavy list. Upgrade would be about the same at either place. Somewhere around the 10 to 15 year mark

Wow, is it really that long to upgrade at SWA given their growth? Just curious. I have read everything you have written and your heart seems to be with Delta. This industry is very cyclical. The legacies have just had the largest stomping in pay and work rules collectively than any time in history that I am aware of. If US Airways is making money now out of BK already I would say there is a very high probability Delta will emerge and be profitable in not too long as well (keep in mind it would be better to paint the sky as falling as much as possible during BK, then unload or renegotiate contracts/leases etc to the max....its a one time oppertunity to "reset" the numbers as management knows this new low will be the starting point for all future bargaining so they show the numbers looking as horrific as possible). Dont be surprised when you see Delta bank a half billion dollar year after having shed so much operating cost after 911. I predict this will happen no later than three years from now in 2010. This will finaly put the pilots back in the drivers seat for negotiations again. I have a hard time believing the 777 and potentialy 787 will pay less than the SWA 737 for very long. Prior to 911 wasnt the top pay on the 777 over $300 an hour at Delta? Food for thought anyway. SWA is a great operation and there are many positives things to be said about it but if you went on historical data going with the top player at any given time usually means you will be much lower on the totem pole later on. My dad had a standing offer with TWA (they were the bomb diggity then) back in the sixties but for some reason (hes still not sure why) he stayed at a smaller operation. after 37 years of flying, one buyout and three mergers he ended up number one at NWA his last three years making a paycheck he never would have dreamed of (hes a very conservative guy with money). His pilot brethren over at TWA were by then making half his wage and ultimately as we all know TWA went under. You wont know if you made the right choice until the end of your career but look at history and what type of flying you want to do...the upward potential, volatilty (which is still higher at Delta RIGHT NOW, but who knows in five years), lifestyle, fatigue factor in runnin really fast all the time (ie SWA) and make your choice. Good Luck!

 

[Howard Hughes]

My .02c

Go to SWA. You cannot directly control the business plan or future of either company, so you may as well try to control where you live. Also, I hear it is a good time to quickly get back to Dallas at SWA because of the recent increase in flying.

Your upgrade to Captain will be slow at both airlines unless you are willing to commute (LGA or BWI). DFW has one of the lowest cost-of-living in the country, so it is a good place to be an FO for a while.

Even if DAL completely turns it around, they still have to deal with some serious competition from other legacies that are at least their equal not to mention SWA itself. I still don't think SWA's business plan has any serious comptetion.

Also, my bet is that over the course of your career SWA will go international. When that happens, I think the legacies will crumble into whatever their final form will be.

Good Luck!

Just curious why you dont see all the altern ego LCC airlines (ie Skybus, JB, AT, VA, and maybe more to come) all encroaching domestically as a threat to SWA over the next ten years? It would seem to me that international is the place to be with Asia growing faster than any other economy and international landing slots working as a natural barrier to entry for new blood such as so called "LCC international operators" trying to get in. Not tearing you down as you may be right but I would be interested to hear more of where you are coming from. Thanks.

 

[Howard Hughes]

You are in a great position. Something to think about. Two former DAL pilots were in my class last year at SWA. One was the old man and had taken an early retirement. The other left as a FO with just under 10 years at DAL.

Could it be possible they were thinking DAL might not make it at that time? I had a friend who flys for DAL also interviewing at Cathay and some other carriers to hedge his bets. If chapter 7 became more imminent he was trying to build a foundation to jump to. Now he is content to stay at DAL as he sees the prospects for DAL as looking good going forward.

 

[SWA/FO]

I just think its funny how a person can be optimistic about Delta and then be so pessimistic about Southwest. not to smart, if you ask me.

 

[Howard Hughes]

I just think its funny how a person can be optimistic about Delta and then be so pessimistic about Southwest. not to smart, if you ask me.

Ha Ha, we all know its human nature to slant things in the direction a person might be going. Helps one feel better about the decision they are making. No offense intended on my part. I think SWA is a model all airlines could learn from without question!

 

[REK]

Having been part of the "Delta family" in the past, I would put my faith in the management team at Southwest over the guys at Delta that probably won't be there in 5 years. But I am a little partial to SWA since I work there.

 

[Pat Fabin]

REK,

I take it you worked for a DCI carrier...if so, you hardly have the experience to say what its like to work at Delta. You might have been part of the "family" but we all know that DCI carriers get treated like stepchildren.

 

[REK]

I am not saying what it is like being a Delta pilot. All I was saying is that the management team in place doesn't give me the warm fuzzies so to speak. I would rather have the guys at SWA that have proven they care about their employees and seem to have been making good decisions for company's heath and not just looking out for themselves. That is just my opinion and that is what I think the thread starter was looking for.

 

[tomstan65]

I interviewed at Southwest 7 years ago and didn't make it. I decided to stay in the military to retire and have now been hired at Southwest. Over the 7 years I had to wait, I watched many folks leave the military for "dream" jobs at United, American, Delta, and Northwest. Many of those guys are now back on active duty flying. I got a chance to ask a lot of questions about each airline. Several of the people I knew at legacy carriers are now on the line at Southwest. Without fail everyone I talk to says Southwest is the way to go. The folks who crossed to Southwest are kicking themselves for the years of seniority they missed. I believe in Southwest and look forward to a long career. That being said on my decision board only 32 out of around 150 were hired. If it was a decision between an offer at Delta and Southwest, I would hands down say go with Southwest. Since that is not the case take what you have at Delta, postpone the interview at Southwest (tell them you have a conflict which is true), and make your own choice after finishing training with Delta.

 

[Whine Lover]

Sir,

There is no difficulty in your decision:

- DAL - HISTORICALLY poorly Managed. In Bankruptcy.

- SWA - NONE of the Above.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

- DAL - Corporate Culture....Hmmmm.

- SWA - Need I say More?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Pay issues? SWA.

Unless you live in ATL....No Brainer.


YKW

 

[SWA/FO]

and make your own choice after finishing training with Delta.

..........while you are busy paying off your credit card, cus Delta doesn't pay for lodging while you're in training.

repeat after me: Delta, Delta, Delta, no $$$ cattle $$$$$ call $$$$ for $$$ you. You are better then that....$$$$ you don't need their money $$$$.

 

[737 Pylt]

..........while you are busy paying off your credit card, cus Delta doesn't pay for lodging while you're in training.

repeat after me: Delta, Delta, Delta, no $$$ cattle $$$$$ call $$$$ for $$$ you. You are better then that....$$$$ you don't need their money $$$$.

So how do you go about paying off that heavy loan for that 737 type?

737

 

[jherk02]

Just curious why you dont see all the altern ego LCC airlines (ie Skybus, JB, AT, VA, and maybe more to come) all encroaching domestically as a threat to SWA over the next ten years?

Well, Skybus and VA haven't even flown yet. And even if JB and AT have a similar product, they just don't have the mass or the name recognition yet. The legacies used to be able to sell tickets based on their brand name. Not so much anymore. I think the only airline that has good name brand recognition is SWA.

When you can pick up the paper and routinely read that a new LCC has opened up a route and forced SWA out of a market...then I'll buy that there is a legitimate competator. This is my main point. If DAL competes with AA, CAL or United (the usual suspects) on a route (with no home field advantages), I don't know who will win out. If SWA decides to compete, my money would be on them every time. So for ACL's career planning, he should go with the guy that can still dictate the market...especially if he wants to live in Dallas.

10 years from now, sure one might be threat. But for career planning in 2007, SWA still has too much quality and mass and is uniquely good at what they do. Best case for DAL is that they can get back in the game and give a bunch of equals a run for their money.

It would seem to me that international is the place to be with Asia growing faster than any other economy and international landing slots working as a natural barrier to entry for new blood such as so called "LCC international operators" trying to get in.

I don't know the intricacies of international expansion. But it seems to me that it is just a business decision like anything else. I bet SWA will be able to find a way around the barriers when the time comes.

 

[FlyBoeingJets]

1) If US Airways is making money now out of BK already I would say there is a very high probability Delta will emerge and be profitable in not too long as well

2) Dont be surprised when you see Delta bank a half billion dollar year after having shed so much operating cost after 911. I predict this will happen no later than three years from now in 2010. This will finaly put the pilots back in the drivers seat for negotiations again.

3) I have a hard time believing the 777 and potentialy 787 will pay less than the SWA 737 for very long. Prior to 911 wasnt the top pay on the 777 over $300 an hour at Delta? Food for thought anyway. SWA is a great operation and there are many positives things to be said about it but if you went on historical data going with the top player at any given time usually means you will be much lower on the totem pole later on.

4) My dad had a standing offer with TWA (they were the bomb diggity then) back in the sixties but for some reason (hes still not sure why) he stayed at a smaller operation. after 37 years of flying, one buyout and three mergers he ended up number one at NWA his last three years making a paycheck he never would have dreamed of (hes a very conservative guy with money). His pilot brethren over at TWA were by then making half his wage and ultimately as we all know TWA went under.

5) You wont know if you made the right choice until the end of your career but look at history...Good Luck!

1) I take an alternate view. The legacies are competing on cost and Delta will have to lower their's again. But it is a positive overall. Delta will not go away.

2) They need that kind of bank just to get back on their feet. It will be a couple of years of that before traction is regained. Airplane orders will suck a lot of cash. I personally think the traction will still be weak for a long time.

3) International ops subsidizes the higher cost parts of the legacies. Pay will come up, but I bet later and less than we think. If you talk pilot costs you should look at total costs and CASM's. I believe the biggest lesson from the past is company health related to CASM. When your operation has high costs the pilots could almost work for free and it would be too much. With the hedges almost null this year, you'll see how the cost issue will still come into play. Anyone can make money in the good times, its the bad times and recovery that count most.

4) I'm glad he made out. Some Morris Air guys are very happy SWA bought them. ATA, Kiwi and National brothers wish someone had bought them out. TWA got bought out too, just at the wrong time and under poor circumstances. "Waiting to get bought out" is a not how I want to play my career. Timing was good for those who retired in the '90s.

5) Very true.

 

[328dude]

So how do you go about paying off that heavy loan for that 737 type?

737

I did it in a month and a half. :beer:

 

[Bucky19]

General Lee,
You have some bad information about the SWA schedule. The system wide average legs/day is slightly less than 3. Remove Dallas and the average is 2.7 legs/day.
I haven't flown 5 legs in years and have never flown 6 in a day. Our contractual average workdays/month is 13.
You can easily work 13 days/month and make 200K.

Not sure where you're getting your information on schedules, etc.

Fly safe.