SWA hiring and international growth. From Gary

[AFcitrus]

Lear,

I think it's funny that you are putting so much stock into the "30% pay raises" that you guys are just bound to get, any day now. I have two responses to that: 1) Counting chickens that haven't hatched yet is like, well, "counting chickens that haven't hatched" and 2) If you actually realize those increases in your pay, it will only be because of the "leverage" that this acquisition by SWA has given you to your management (i.e. they don't want you killing their golden goose). As for your "financial loss" (again, not based on any reality, but what you hope happens in the future vis a vis those raises), well...you really need to call clear skies, 'cuz Son, you been smokin' the crack pipe. Coming to Southwest will be a financial windfall for all you guys - period, end of story. As for that not making any difference in arbitration, look up the arbitrated settlement to the USA/AWA dispatchers integration. Also, the inability to negotiate a contract for the last 5+ years, with the subsequent posturing to seek self-help and get your pound of flesh from a company that wouldn't likely survive a strike...well, that will probably play a part in the upcoming arbitration, too. I'll take our side in arbitration every day, but then again, I work for an airline that is at the top of everyone's career wish list, not for a glorified regional. And soon, you will too, as one of my F/O's.

Peace,
Shagadelic

I don't often post on this forum but I feel the need to post at this time. I don't think I have ever heard a more ignorant diatribe. This is especially disturbing considering that you claim to come from the AF. Your ignorance and self-glorification are a black eye to every AF pilot whether in the airline community or not. You sir, are tremendously misinformed!

I understand that this is all a big surprise to you. It is a surprise to us as well. But bashing fellow aviators with ignorant and flawed information only serves to discredit yourself, and unfortunately, every other pilot who wears silver wings.

Who knows how this will turn out. Hopefully our merger committees can come to an agreeable SLI that will protect everyones' current and future career. If not, we will follow the process that has been put in place for just such an occasion. Once the decision is made, I hope we will all knuckle down, put our disagreements aside and set forth making SWA the devastatingly unstoppable airline that I know we can be.

Cheers

 

[waveflyer]

Lear... Seriously man- you don't allow any thread get hijacked into a AWA/AAA debate but it's alright when it's your SLI?

Besides that- you're taking the best of all scenarios working out at AT and a middle of the road to worst case scenario happening after the merger- it's a bad comparison and lime I said- this kind of debate is retarded on every level- you want to piss off all the Swa pilots- feed the fire you know will be there- that's your call- but I don't see how that helps your cause at all

 

[Sandhawk]

Why the heck not. All your FO's need to be stapled as well as more then half of your CA should be downgraded, heck they all should. I guess an $60-80,000 raise, better benefits, QOL, company, management etc. are worth nothing in your world.

I agree it will be arbitration and now its just another place go to work. You guys just want everything handed to you. Nothing like finding a lottery ticket on the floor.

Easy with the lottery ticket. I attribute that statement with a carrier called United.

Did Vixin come from UniTed? Seems more like a USAir pilot with that attitude.....

imp:

 

[JT12345]

Lear,

I think it's funny that you are putting so much stock into the "30% pay raises" that you guys are just bound to get, any day now. I have two responses to that: 1) Counting chickens that haven't hatched yet is like, well, "counting chickens that haven't hatched" and 2) If you actually realize those increases in your pay, it will only be because of the "leverage" that this acquisition by SWA has given you to your management (i.e. they don't want you killing their golden goose). As for your "financial loss" (again, not based on any reality, but what you hope happens in the future vis a vis those raises), well...you really need to call clear skies, 'cuz Son, you been smokin' the crack pipe. Coming to Southwest will be a financial windfall for all you guys - period, end of story. As for that not making any difference in arbitration, look up the arbitrated settlement to the USA/AWA dispatchers integration. Also, the inability to negotiate a contract for the last 5+ years, with the subsequent posturing to seek self-help and get your pound of flesh from a company that wouldn't likely survive a strike...well, that will probably play a part in the upcoming arbitration, too. I'll take our side in arbitration every day, but then again, I work for an airline that is at the top of everyone's career wish list, not for a glorified regional. And soon, you will too, as one of my F/O's.

Peace,
Shagadelic

Some of the Captains at Airtran make bout 190-200k a year. And they may lose money with the merger. You see we work hard here. It is why our costs r low too. It is why our loads are high in BWI, MCO, BOS, and MKE. It is why we are expanding in BWI and MCO, and getting airplanes. You are not. We are doubling our MKE presence and you are not. Call it what you will, but we are a thorn in your side for a long time now. SWA wants ATL and we are done fending off Delta on our own. They are just to big now. Win, Win for both of us, but don't say it is a financial windfall. Not for some here at Airtran.

Why dont you talk to some of us, and find out what is going on here before you open your pie hole.

After reading your post I want to know what kind of "culture" you have overthere because that is a far cry from what I have heard. Although I have not heard much recently, and have not been on here much.

Do you really work for SWA or are you just trolling this forum? Your a CFI right or a corporate guy I bet? I know... your a regional guy outta of ATL, and are really really worried if this happens. Maybe junior on the DAL list? They still got those flowbacks?

 

[Dan Roman]

Lear,

I work for an airline that is at the top of everyone's career wish list, not for a glorified regional. And soon, you will too, as one of my F/O's.

Peace,
Shagadelic

Pretty arrogant statement to say the least. I think most people in this industry who don't work at either airline see SWA and AirTran as pretty much as similar as say, NWA and DAL, both legacy airlines. SWA and AirTran do the exact same kind of flying and both are LCC's, what's the dif?
Sure seems like an awful large sense of entitlement among some of the SWA folks on here, is it because you bought a type to get hired and the AirTran folks didn't? I mean really, SWA got it's foot in the door by it's pilots working much longer hours for less pay and forgoing the type of retirement that most airline pilots used to enjoy and you bought type ratings to get hired. I think that's what they call shiny jet syndrome.
I hate to fall in the camp of the SWA bashers as I've met a lot of good SWA folks and you are a very good airline. (so was Pan Am once).
But you guys are really starting to come across as thinking you are the center of the airline universe. You're not, hell your management even tried to codeshare your international 737 flying, to Canada and Mexico no less!

 

[amF16]

Some of the Captains at Airtran make bout 190-200k a year. And they may lose money with the merger. You see we work hard here.


Thats the point........some of your top end Capts make 190K. Alot of our F/O's makes 190k. The disparity in pay is huge.

 

[bluestreaking]

Lear,

I think it's funny that you are putting so much stock into the "30% pay raises" that you guys are just bound to get, any day now. I have two responses to that: 1) Counting chickens that haven't hatched yet is like, well, "counting chickens that haven't hatched" and 2) If you actually realize those increases in your pay, it will only be because of the "leverage" that this acquisition by SWA has given you to your management (i.e. they don't want you killing their golden goose). As for your "financial loss" (again, not based on any reality, but what you hope happens in the future vis a vis those raises), well...you really need to call clear skies, 'cuz Son, you been smokin' the crack pipe. Coming to Southwest will be a financial windfall for all you guys - period, end of story. As for that not making any difference in arbitration, look up the arbitrated settlement to the USA/AWA dispatchers integration. Also, the inability to negotiate a contract for the last 5+ years, with the subsequent posturing to seek self-help and get your pound of flesh from a company that wouldn't likely survive a strike...well, that will probably play a part in the upcoming arbitration, too. I'll take our side in arbitration every day, but then again, I work for an airline that is at the top of everyone's career wish list, not for a glorified regional. And soon, you will too, as one of my F/O's.

Peace,
Shagadelic

PS Welcome to the Show!

Shagadelic,

Comments like this are a complete embarrassment to the rest of us. Why don't you take our union's advice and STFU!

Bluestreaking

 

[scoreboardII]

Lear, your doing a good job here, don't fall for the clowns trying to drag you into the mud.

Hey, here's an idea, lets just pick arbitrators right now, but they need to have been a Playboy centerfold within the last 10 years, college graduates, preferably contract law ( I know I know, I dream). Then we present our sides, tell them to go into a room and come out with a list in 60 minutes. Anyone who doesn't like the list gets a night with the centerfold of their choice.

Win-win.

 

[U2DRVR]

Lear, your doing a good job here, don't fall for the clowns trying to drag you into the mud.

Hey, here's an idea, lets just pick arbitrators right now, but they need to have been a Playboy centerfold within the last 10 years, college graduates, preferably contract law ( I know I know, I dream). Then we present our sides, tell them to go into a room and come out with a list in 60 minutes. Anyone who doesn't like the list gets a night with the centerfold of their choice.

Win-win.

Great idea!!!!

btw, I already don't like the list...repeatedly!

 

[scoreboardII]

Win-win

 

[Lear70]

Lear... Seriously man- you don't allow any thread get hijacked into a AWA/AAA debate but it's alright when it's your SLI?

Moderator hat on:

Just for clarification:


First, it's not an AWA/AAA debate, it's a AAI/SWA debate.

Second, I allow plenty of threads on AWA/AAA, I just don't allow thread creep from, say, a UAL/CAL thread from turning into an AWA/AAA debate, or talking about pension reform and someone goes off about merger/integration for another airline.

This is a AAI/SWA thread. As long as members respect the rule, it goes whatever direction the posters want with it, no matter how long it goes or even if it jumps the shark and starts getting ridiculous.

/mod

Nothing is going to get solved here. That's why I decided last night to answer a few questions and move on. I won't rehash questions not debate the same question with 5 different people. It's just not worth my time. I have the way I feel about things on here, as does everyone else. I believe I have an open mind about what would be fair, but from what I'm hearing on here, there are much fewer people at Southwest with that kind of an open mind, which is disappointing.

I hope that changes in the coming months. Best of luck to everyone.

 

[Lear70]

I need to go over our M and A comments, but the way I understood things is that per our contract, the SLI will not seriously begin until SWAPA has a transition agreement with SWA. From the time the transaction is closed (sometime during the first half of next year for all the regulatory stuff), there is a two year window for AT to be operated separately in order to conclude an SLI (per the SWAPA contract). During that time AT would operate under the current AT contract and work rules. AT pilots wouldn't receive the pay or work rules until they became SWAPA pilots, which would occur after an SLI.

There may be something in the AT contract that says something different from your side, but the way I understood things is that AT pilots wouldn't receive SWAPA payscales until they became SWAPA pilots.

It depends ENTIRELY on the Bridge Agreement that is negotiated between SWAPA and SWA management. That bridge agreement details the timelines for each piece of the merger puzzle. It can also add new bennies or perks for SOUTHWEST pilots as an incentive for things to transition quickly and smoothly.

For instance, in the DAL/NWA merger, pay was bumped up for the NWA pilots fairly early after DOCC, well before full integration of the operation was complete. It seems to be established practice that way.

Also, there's nothing that says the SLI can't be worked on simultaneously while the DOJ is hashing things out. In practice, SWAPA and AAI ALPA already have a couple dates set up this month to meet, with probably several in Nov and Dec then picking up in earnest 1st of the year. As I mentioned before, I would be shocked if it took the full 24 months, with 12-18 months being more likely and DOCC being sometime in late Feb / early Mar barring some kind of DOJ interference, which is unlikely given how small route overlap we fly and that we won't represent a monopoly, being the #3 carrier in terms of combined size in the U.S.

That means AAI pilots may have to work under AAI rules and pay for a year to year and a half, OR we may start creeping up to Southwest rates fairly quickly after DOCC (4-6 months). It all depends on the Bridge Agreement, which is why we're pushing hard for our contract still, recognizing it may be a long while and we're not willing to live under these terms for that long. Our message board and the last SPSC meeting right after the Southwest announcement were pretty clear. Our focus is our own contract. The Southwest integration is just too far out to sit and wait.

 

[Lear70]

Lear,

We get paid trips per pay. I cant remember the exact formula. I get a guarantee of 90 tfp per month on reserve. They fly me about 55 to 75 block hours a month. I blow my guarantee mostly every month. I usually get paid about 105-112 tfp a month on average, and thats working 15 days a month. If you look on ACP, put 85-100 in the credit section that would be a close dollar amount.

Now if you hold a line then you can really make some bank because of the great flexibility in the schedule and what our contract brings you and I. I know that your negotiation team will be impressed with the details.

The trips are real productive. The average duty day is 8.50 hours a day. It's awesome. Work hard play hard.

Cool.

Yes, I am aware of the TFP formula, and it makes an outright comparison of pay fairly difficult, so I just used the hourly rate formula on APC - most people agree it's pretty close, within 1-2%.

I work hard when I'm at work, but my happy place is 17-18 days off a month (I have a 4 year old, I like spending time with him, and I have a social life, too). Therefore I bid low-time high-productivity - max days off. Credit right at 1,000 hours a year, and will try to do the same thing there.

From what I hear and have seen with my friends schedules that are at Southwest, those kind of trips are there, too, especially as a line holder. Good stuff, for sure.

 

[texman]

Lear,

I know about the kid thing and social life thing. I cant wait to get off reserve. The good thing about our reserve we don't have to sit airport stby. Brother I will say this is going to be huge for all. I do see something brewing on the horizon bigger than the 737-8. The talk is that GK is going to expand to Hawaii and South America. We bring the west and yall bring the east. Let's get er done!

 

[shagadelic]

Just for clarification, that last post was not Shag...but a friend who I gave my password to. I told him not to post...lol, he didn't listen to me. Just sayin.

 

[IAHERJ]

Lear,

I know about the kid thing and social life thing. I cant wait to get off reserve. The good thing about our reserve we don't have to sit airport stby. Brother I will say this is going to be huge for all. I do see something brewing on the horizon bigger than the 737-8. The talk is that GK is going to expand to Hawaii and South America. We bring the west and yall bring the east. Let's get er done!

Is that what the "talk" is? I'm assuming you guys are getting 787's or something for this type of flying as well huh? I mean, if Gary wants to conquer South America and Hawaii and all, "get en er done" will require more than 737's of any size...Big things brewing.....haha

Attention, Attention all pilots flying for Delta, American, United, Alaska, U.S. Airways: Please update your resumes as soon as possible. "Gary" is taking over the airline industry with his fleet of Mach .74 cruising 737's capable of 40 knot taxi speeds......We are all doomed.....Big things are on the horizon and if you are not on board with "Gary" you better get out of the way!

 

[spciii]

Is that what the "talk" is? I'm assuming you guys are getting 787's or something for this type of flying as well huh? I mean, if Gary wants to conquer South America and Hawaii and all, "get en er done" will require more than 737's of any size...Big things brewing.....haha

Attention, Attention all pilots flying for Delta, American, United, Alaska, U.S. Airways: Please update your resumes as soon as possible. "Gary" is taking over the airline industry with his fleet of Mach .74 cruising 737's capable of 40 knot taxi speeds......We are all doomed.....Big things are on the horizon and if you are not on board with "Gary" you better get out of the way!

So I guess you'll have nothing to worry about with little ole Southwestern Trailways in EWR then.

 

[IAHERJ]

Never said I was worried about SWA in EWR. Never made a negative comment about that when it was announced. In fact, there is a good segment of the New Jersey population that I think will feel a tad more "comfortable" hitching a ride on a SWA airplane. Think Jersey Shore....

 

[JetDude]

/rant on

After reading through this thread, I want my mouse click(s) back. I feel totally ripped off! Lots of emotion. Waaayyyyy to much conjecture. Nothing but polarization. Forums tend to cater to the vocal 5% with agendas who spew vitriolic diatribe often ungrounded in fact. Unfortunately that's the way our society has gone over the last 20 years, and it is most evident in politics. If I don't get my way I'm burning the place down!!

Here's an idea... let's all grow up. The acquisition/merger/(insert favorite term here) is a fact. The need for SLI is a fact. Both companies have M/A teams and legal counsel (fact). Let's see what they come up with. Their creativity to smoothly integrate might surprise most. Maybe not...but to second guess their efforts before they even begin is asinine!

In the end, one list and one company will be the result. As in life, whether you/we/I are happy with it is up to us.

Thanks for your time.

/rant off

 

[Whataburger]

Is that what the "talk" is? I'm assuming you guys are getting 787's or something for this type of flying as well huh? I mean, if Gary wants to conquer South America and Hawaii and all, "get en er done" will require more than 737's of any size...Big things brewing.....haha

Attention, Attention all pilots flying for Delta, American, United, Alaska, U.S. Airways: Please update your resumes as soon as possible. "Gary" is taking over the airline industry with his fleet of Mach .74 cruising 737's capable of 40 knot taxi speeds......We are all doomed.....Big things are on the horizon and if you are not on board with "Gary" you better get out of the way!

Are all your furloughed pilots going to get back on line before the merger?

So Alaska's 737s aren't working out for Hawaii?