SWA hiring and international growth. From Gary

[scoreboardII]

it doesn't sound as dire then.

 

[jonjuan]

Six year AirTran guy.....gonna be a lot more than half a decade to the left seat.

At least he'll upgrade a few years ahead of a 6 year wn guy due to relative position.

 

[ERfly]

So, when does the App open?

 

[Candide]

I guess it would be more accurate to say SOME of your hiring is for our planes that you're getting instead of us. Such is life.


And oh yeah, that whole pesky international flying thing.

As for what Southwest brings for AirTran pilots? Depends where you're at in the seniority order of things and how the SLI pans out. For me, it means a likely half-decade delay in upgrade, but a better pay scale as an F/O in the interim. Likely I will lose about $100k in the grand scheme of things over the next half-decade, but if I get a good quality of life as well similar to what I'd enjoy here bidding in the top 15% of the F/O list and upgrade sometime before I hit mandatory retirement (that's a joke, btw), I'll simply enjoy my line, enjoy my coworkers, have a good time, take care of our passengers, and go home to my family, just like the rest of us.

It's all good, my friend, no stress, no worries, can't do anything about it anyway.

I'm thinking this forum is a good place to vent, but thank god we're not responsible for the actual negotiating.

`Cause everyone's full of spin.

When I reason that a 700 aircraft airline is unlikely to grow, I'm spinning one very possible scenario, although I secretly know (hope?) that growth may be possible. I overemphasize the possibility of limited growth to underline my very deep-seated anxieties about this deal.

When you lament a potential delay in upgrade, it belies the fact that the disparity in payrates is so substantial that SWA mid-to-senior FOs make as much or more than AAi Captains as well as ignoring a lot of non-pay benefits SWA pilots enjoy such as work rules, health care, and working environment.

So I think I'm done with reading and posting here. But Lear, I do look forward to having a beer and a laugh on a future TPA overnight with ya.

 

[vixin]

Wow Lear70 you have alot of what ifs in that last post. What if you went on strike and Airtran shut down? How would your 30% raise be then. What if your thoughtful management said stick it, come back for 10% less or we are done. He has already stated troubles were on the horizon. Then SWA could just buy assets and SWA pilots wouldnt have anything to worry about. Alot of what ifs for both sides. They dont mean a darn thing until its in your hand. No airline has ever had any trouble after a strike...never could happen.

Heck Ill bet our NC is working on a 15% pay increase, but only if the trannies take the staple. Maybe SWA guys will only have to work weekdays, no holidays and we will get double time on our birthdays. I heard thats what they are working on.

 

[Lear70]

In case there were doubts of how close we were to asking for a release into self-help, here's the latest email about it from our MEC (4 days before the announcement from Southwest):

September 23, 2010

Negotiations resumed this week at the office of the National Mediation Board in Washington, D.C. The session began with discussions on Section 12 – Insurance and Section 4 – Compensation. Miscellaneous economic issues, including training pay, international override, per diem, and home studies, among others, were resolved. But in response to our compensation proposal made one month ago during our negotiating session in PIE, the company offered only minor increases in later years of the contract. There was no meaningful change in pay rates in the early years of the contract from management’s prior proposal. In response to the NMB’s request, your NC made another compensation proposal later that same day. Our response also included only minor movement from our last proposal in the later years of the contract.

As a result, after two and one-half days of meetings, we were not able to bridge the substantial economic divide that remains. At this point in negotiations, the open issues list has been narrowed to hourly pay rate tables, signing bonus, duty period guarantee, duty rig, minimum monthly guarantee, company contribution to our retirement and primarily the economic elements in the insurance section.

Following the meeting, NMB Member Linda Puchala met privately with each party. Member Puchala indicated that the three-member Board will meet in mid-October to review this case.

We have clearly informed both the NMB and the company of our desire to complete negotiations, provided that the settlement is one that recognizes our contribution to the company and places us solidly in line with our pilot peers at other successful major airlines. But as you know from already announced SPSC activities related to picketing and staffing for a strike center, we are preparing either to finish negotiations with a tentative agreement if we can, or be ready to take self-help if we are freed to do so by the NMB.

In unity,

The MEC also sent out an email to the pilot group informing them that we would be considering the issue of when to request release into self-help at our upcoming MEC quarterly meeting starting next Monday. We are expecting an update from the NMB about the same time, and while we likely aren't pressing for release at this time (for obvious reasons), we are certainly not backing down off continuing to push for a fair contract, recognizing that nothing is done with the merger until the ink is dry and the planes are painted.

I believe the company will be willing to bridge the divide now on where we stand on our offer, seeing as it will simply be a temporary contract if all goes well that costs them nothing since their bonuses are all tied to the completion of the Southwest contract now, and not our own contract metrics.

So yes, the majority of our pilots consider this a "merging of equals", not "winning the lottery". Southwest is a great company and we look forward to a bright future, recognizing the benefits each side brings to the table.

 

[AJWick]

So yes, the majority of our pilots consider this a "merging of equals", not "winning the lottery". Southwest is a great company and we look forward to a bright future, recognizing the benefits each side brings to the table.

Hmmmmm....Pretty much ALL SWA Pilots say you guys won the lottery.

Merging of equals?

PAY rates...We think not.
Company Morale...We think not.
Size of Company...We think not.
QOL...We think not.
Relationship w/ Mgmt...We think not.
Age of Company...We think not.

Well....you get the idea.

Yes, Lear, SWA is a great company and we look forward to you guys coming over here. Welcome Aboard!

 

[GuppyWN]

Serious question. Do you honestly think Airtran pilots would strike now?

I think you guys are in a little bit of a tough spot. Your CEO could personally call every one of you and tell you to shove it up your ass and I don't think you would strike now. Too much to lose.

Gup

 

[Taco Rocket]

Serious question. Do you honestly think Airtran pilots would strike now?

I think you guys are in a little bit of a tough spot. Your CEO could personally call every one of you and tell you to shove it up your ass and I don't think you would strike now. Too much to lose.

Gup

Nice attitude. Was the same mentality employed at Frontier?

 

[Kharma Police]

Nothing we couldn’t do without them! Except good old ATL. Does it make it easier? Yes. Are there other reasons? I am sure. But hey, what does SWA bring. Not much in the eyes of the trannies I guess. We should be graced with their presents on our seniority list.

Besides those 40 FO's will get their pay and then some when they get on our list. I mean seriously.

What kind of "presents" would you like us AirTran pilots to grace you with? Maybe some Silly Bandz or Littlest Pet Shop toys?

 

[contrail67]

yeah, but what does airtran bring to the merger?

717's

 

[fugghedabowdit]

So, when does the App open?

I asked a CP that question the other day. He said he didn't know yet.

 

[vixin]

It would be more then what you bring to the table. Just typing to fast and couldnt edit it anymore.

 

[Kharma Police]

It would be more then what you bring to the table. Just typing to fast and couldnt edit it anymore.

Okay fine, you don't want to be "graced by my presents" I guess I'll just bring the Silly Bandz to the Arbitrator then!

 

[SWA2000]

lear,

Relative seniority is out of the question. You are a 16 year old airline (that's questionable ie: valujet/airtran) we are a 40 year old airline. Relative seniority is not going to happen. Neither is DOH. Our merger team is made up of 5 fo's and 2 ca's. Junior fo's too. They have much too lose on this deal. My guess is the best deal that they will come up with is half your ca's bottom of our ca list, the other half ratioed into our fo list, and then your fo's stapled. Anything more won't pass on a vote here. Not sure if that would either. I know ya'll probably feel that you have much to gain in arbitration. If it went to arbitration and if swa pilots feel they were unfairly treated, I am sure we would fight it like the AWA/US deal. Then GK probably would shrink the AT operation. Ya'll need to think long and hard how your merger team approaches this SLI. I am not trying to slight any of the AT guys. I know you are all probably good guys just trying to support your family like I am. But I feel like SWA pilots paid a bigger price to be here. And I am guessing if an AT guy had the option to choose AT vs SW they would choose SW. I hope it all works out for everybody unfortuately these things seldom do.

 

[IAHERJ]

lear,

Relative seniority is out of the question. You are a 16 year old airline (that's questionable ie: valujet/airtran) we are a 40 year old airline. Relative seniority is not going to happen. Neither is DOH. Our merger team is made up of 5 fo's and 2 ca's. Junior fo's too. They have much too lose on this deal. My guess is the best deal that they will come up with is half your ca's bottom of our ca list, the other half ratioed into our fo list, and then your fo's stapled. Anything more won't pass on a vote here. Not sure if that would either. I know ya'll probably feel that you have much to gain in arbitration. If it went to arbitration and if swa pilots feel they were unfairly treated, I am sure we would fight it like the AWA/US deal. Then GK probably would shrink the AT operation. Ya'll need to think long and hard how your merger team approaches this SLI. I am not trying to slight any of the AT guys. I know you are all probably good guys just trying to support your family like I am. But I feel like SWA pilots paid a bigger price to be here. And I am guessing if an AT guy had the option to choose AT vs SW they would choose SW. I hope it all works out for everybody unfortuately these things seldom do.

Wow.... and prior to 9/11 just about everybody would have chosen AA/DL/UAL etc. over SWA. You guys sure do think highly of yourselves these days. Read the USA Today(10/5). I hope that you guys, seeing little to no growth over the next decade or two; will at least stop pushing to raise the retirement age. That is going to be your only source of movement for years to come. Feel that LUV

 

[Fly-By-Cable]

lear,

Relative seniority is out of the question. You are a 16 year old airline (that's questionable ie: valujet/airtran) we are a 40 year old airline. Relative seniority is not going to happen. Neither is DOH. Our merger team is made up of 5 fo's and 2 ca's. Junior fo's too. They have much too lose on this deal. My guess is the best deal that they will come up with is half your ca's bottom of our ca list, the other half ratioed into our fo list, and then your fo's stapled. Anything more won't pass on a vote here. Not sure if that would either. I know ya'll probably feel that you have much to gain in arbitration. If it went to arbitration and if swa pilots feel they were unfairly treated, I am sure we would fight it like the AWA/US deal. Then GK probably would shrink the AT operation. Ya'll need to think long and hard how your merger team approaches this SLI. I am not trying to slight any of the AT guys. I know you are all probably good guys just trying to support your family like I am. But I feel like SWA pilots paid a bigger price to be here. And I am guessing if an AT guy had the option to choose AT vs SW they would choose SW. I hope it all works out for everybody unfortuately these things seldom do.

They only way you can fight a binding arbitration (like US/AWA) is by claiming unfair representation by your union, followed by union change. Are you saying that SW pilots would vote out SWAPA if they are not happy with results of arbitration?

 

[ATLplt]

lear,

Relative seniority is out of the question. You are a 16 year old airline (that's questionable ie: valujet/airtran) we are a 40 year old airline. Relative seniority is not going to happen. Neither is DOH. Our merger team is made up of 5 fo's and 2 ca's. Junior fo's too. They have much too lose on this deal. My guess is the best deal that they will come up with is half your ca's bottom of our ca list, the other half ratioed into our fo list, and then your fo's stapled. Anything more won't pass on a vote here. Not sure if that would either. I know ya'll probably feel that you have much to gain in arbitration. If it went to arbitration and if swa pilots feel they were unfairly treated, I am sure we would fight it like the AWA/US deal. Then GK probably would shrink the AT operation. Ya'll need to think long and hard how your merger team approaches this SLI. I am not trying to slight any of the AT guys. I know you are all probably good guys just trying to support your family like I am. But I feel like SWA pilots paid a bigger price to be here. And I am guessing if an AT guy had the option to choose AT vs SW they would choose SW. I hope it all works out for everybody unfortuately these things seldom do.

SWA2000, you could put the Pope on your merger team and be in the same spot. It's gonna be up to an arbitrator...not any of us. AirTran guys are not gonna settle outside of arbitration in the spirit of brotherhood, only to get fukt in the pooper. So, grab some popcorn, recline your lazyboy, and watch the show. Have concerns? Vent them to your hotshot FO merger team.

 

[scoreboardII]

are you saying that sw pilots would vote out swapa if they are not happy with results of arbitration?

yes.....

It's gonna be up to an arbitrator...not any of us.

True, so why worry?

Vent them to your hotshot FO merger team.

Their actually quite good, but even better backed by these guys:
http://www.bredhoff.com/index.php

 

[NuGuy]

yes.....

If that's REALLY the case, the SWA guys will go down the same pariah path that the AAA guys have gone.

Are OK with that?

Nu