SWA hiring and international growth. From Gary

[scoreboardII]

If that's REALLY the case, the SWA guys will go down the same pariah path that the AAA guys have gone.

Are OK with that?

Nu

define this question please.

 

[Lear70]

lear,

Relative seniority is out of the question. You are a 16 year old airline (that's questionable ie: valujet/airtran) we are a 40 year old airline. Relative seniority is not going to happen. Neither is DOH. Our merger team is made up of 5 fo's and 2 ca's. Junior fo's too. They have much too lose on this deal. My guess is the best deal that they will come up with is half your ca's bottom of our ca list, the other half ratioed into our fo list, and then your fo's stapled. Anything more won't pass on a vote here. Not sure if that would either.

It certainly would NOT pass a vote here, either. Our MEC are mainly F/O's. Our LEC voting members are two F/O's and one CA who is a JUNIOR CA and whose spouse is an F/O here. They aren't going to vote themselves into that position and it would be a DFR violation if they did any such thing.

Today's posts are convincing me, more than ever, that it will go to arbitration. It simply will avoid the finger-pointing and lawsuits that might ensue.

I know ya'll probably feel that you have much to gain in arbitration. If it went to arbitration and if swa pilots feel they were unfairly treated, I am sure we would fight it like the AWA/US deal.

Good luck with that. Seriously. As has been said before, you'd have to get at least half your pilots to agree to DECERTIFY SWAPA (which I *HIGHLY* doubt will happen), then form yet ANOTHER in-house union (or go with Teamsters, since we're an ALPA carrier), then try to tie it up in court for years???

In the meantime, we would already have our Bridge Agreement bringing us up to Southwest pay (that comes WAY before the SLI), we'd keep our deliveries as planned, our pilots would upgrade on schedule into Southwest pay on our own fenced side of the house, and you'd operate us separately? And that's bad for us HOW?

I submit that this is *NOT* a great idea, not only from a culture-destroying perspective, but also as any kind of "stick" to bring us closer to your position. We've been working under that kind of environment for too long to even BLINK at it. We'll just sit back, pop some more popcorn, fly our trips, and go home.

Ya'll need to think long and hard how your merger team approaches this SLI. I am not trying to slight any of the AT guys. I know you are all probably good guys just trying to support your family like I am. But I feel like SWA pilots paid a bigger price to be here. And I am guessing if an AT guy had the option to choose AT vs SW they would choose SW. I hope it all works out for everybody unfortuately these things seldom do.

I hope your pilots do as well. We're not going to accept a downgrade for half our CA's and a staple for most of our F/O's. I sincerely hope cooler minds prevail at the table, however I sense more and more than anything other than arbitration is a pipe dream. I was hoping to avoid it, but more and more I'm believing that it's unavoidable.

 

[Dan Roman]

Uswapa!

 

[Lear70]

Uswapa!

Don't start... lol

 

[scoreboardII]

I was hoping to avoid it, but more and more I'm believing that it's unavoidable.

I think this goes to show that the law is really a hamper to anyone who thinks they can merge/acquire, whatever verb you use to join distinctly different pilot groups with different employee expectations.

Look at NWA/Delta: two like minded pilot groups, similar company size age upgrade etc then compare to AWA/Uair, young vs old, large vs small, international vs domestic.

Unfortunately, the AWA integration feels more like what SWA/Airtran have to look forward too. You have your side, we have ours.

Lear, we will be drinking beer in a year or three, but for now, we are competitors and lets let our teams get muddy for us.

 

[ASADFW7]

Easy does it on expectations and demands, and it will be an easier pill to swallow. I would like to see a list that creates synergy from the top to the bottom. Hopeful, expecting it no. I am realistic. The chest pumping and trickle down just makes people look lessor than.

 

[Lear70]

Unfortunately, the AWA integration feels more like what SWA/Airtran have to look forward too. You have your side, we have ours.

God, I hope not. Who wants to work under that kind of animosity for decades??

Lear, we will be drinking beer in a year or three, but for now, we are competitors and lets let our teams get muddy for us.

Yeah, that's one of the reasons I retracted my initial offer to serve on the Merger Committee. I had a LOT of phone calls asking if I was interested, talked to the MEC and LEC about it last week, then called a good buddy of mine (about the only other person I trust to do it), and he said he was probably going to be on the committee, so I told everyone "No, thanks."

I think you're right, it's going to be long, dirty work and I'm grateful my friend stepped up to the plate.

In the meantime, between now and 3 years, if we end up in the same city sometime, I'll be happy to buy the beer. :beer:

 

[NuGuy]

God, I hope not. Who wants to work under that kind of animosity for decades??


Yeah, that's one of the reasons I retracted my initial offer to serve on the Merger Committee. I had a LOT of phone calls asking if I was interested, talked to the MEC and LEC about it last week, then called a good buddy of mine (about the only other person I trust to do it), and he said he was probably going to be on the committee, so I told everyone "No, thanks."

I think you're right, it's going to be long, dirty work and I'm grateful my friend stepped up to the plate.

In the meantime, between now and 3 years, if we end up in the same city sometime, I'll be happy to buy the beer. :beer:

Heyas Lear,

As much as I hate to admit it, probably one of the best ways I've seen this done is the way the NWA/DAL guys did it.

First and foremost, realize the value of the merger to the pilot groups. Grab some cool rules and some pay raises for EVERYONE. A smooth merger benefits the company GREATLY, and all the pilots should get a taste of that. You'd think the SWA guys would be chomping at the bit to get some improvements, a few more dollars an hour, or heck, a slice of equity. I know I'd expect to be PAID for my cooperation.

Next, outline a plan to QUICKLY move through the pointless SLI negotiation phase. No one is going to agree, if for no other reason is they don't want the blame and/or lawsuits from certain segments of the list.

Last, set up a rock solid timetable for the arbitration process, with FIRM deadlines. Make sure you get a panel of arbitrators, rather than one.

No one ever votes on a SLI. It's pointless, since it's always "no". The chances of either side voting on a SLI is zero.

Nu

 

[vixin]

I hope your pilots do as well. We're not going to accept a downgrade for half our CA's and a staple for most of our F/O's. I sincerely hope cooler minds prevail at the table, however I sense more and more than anything other than arbitration is a pipe dream. I was hoping to avoid it, but more and more I'm believing that it's unavoidable.

Why the heck not. All your FO's need to be stapled as well as more then half of your CA should be downgraded, heck they all should. I guess an $60-80,000 raise, better benefits, QOL, company, management etc. are worth nothing in your world.

What is your idea of fair and equitable then? Maybe all Airtran pilots should go on top of the SWA list. They should also get an additional 10% raise above SWA pilots for the inconvienence of the aquisition. Afterall, SWA pilots will be getting everything in the deal.

I agree it will be arbitration and now its just another place go to work. You guys just want everything handed to you. Nothing like finding a lottery ticket on the floor.

 

[dicko]

Why the heck not. All your FO's need to be stapled as well as more then half of your CA should be downgraded, heck they all should. I guess an $60-80,000 raise, better benefits, QOL, company, management etc. are worth nothing in your world.

What is your idea of fair and equitable then? Maybe all Airtran pilots should go on top of the SWA list. They should also get an additional 10% raise above SWA pilots for the inconvienence of the aquisition. Afterall, SWA pilots will be getting everything in the deal.

I agree it will be arbitration and now its just another place go to work. You guys just want everything handed to you. Nothing like finding a lottery ticket on the floor.

You are wise. We can only hope that you are allowed to appear before the Arbitrators to give counsel.

My seventeen fingers are all crossed in the hope that you will be the pilot to give the summation.

 

[waveflyer]

The louder they are- the less they know- hence their need to shout it- bc they're viewpoint is in doubt-

Don't get sucked in- and I'll throw in a post now and then so everyone can read my signature. If you actually WANT an AAA type merger process on either side- I'd say you have no clue what you're talking about

 

[Lear70]

Why the heck not. All your FO's need to be stapled as well as more then half of your CA should be downgraded, heck they all should.

And that's the end of our discussion.

Good luck to you, sir.

 

[Kharma Police]

Why the heck not. All your FO's need to be stapled as well as more then half of your CA should be downgraded, heck they all should. I guess an $60-80,000 raise, better benefits, QOL, company, management etc. are worth nothing in your world.

What is your idea of fair and equitable then? Maybe all Airtran pilots should go on top of the SWA list. They should also get an additional 10% raise above SWA pilots for the inconvienence of the aquisition. Afterall, SWA pilots will be getting everything in the deal.

I agree it will be arbitration and now its just another place go to work. You guys just want everything handed to you. Nothing like finding a lottery ticket on the floor.

Excellent summation! We have indeed been, "graced by your presents"!!!!!

 

[asaflyer]

I think arbitration is the best way to go. Both sides present their view then accept whatever is decided. While looking at both AAI's and SWA lists I noticed that ours, AAI's, includes DOH and Birthday. SWA includes that plus date of upgrade. I assume the date of upgrade was on there because of the old "up or out" rule. I say get rid of all dates on the new list. All it will do is cause more separation between groups. DOH means nothing to a merged airline so drop it. It would be nice to have a reissued employee number too just to get away from the them vs. us mentallity. I don't care at all who "used to be Airways or VJ" but as soon as you see their employee number its there in black and white. What does it matter. Isn't what SWA2000 described the exact thing that went down at AA/TWA and isn't that the reason there is a "fair and equitable" bill. Bottom line is that most if not all pilots shouldn't be affected much by the SLI. If relative seniority is used the only arguement against it is "that's not fair", well sir how does it affect you, "it doesn't it's just not fair". I've also heard a few guys say, "what does swa pilots get out of this deal". Well, for those of you that are parents, when you had your first child, did you look at them and say, "what am I getting out of all this", hopefully not. How bout a stronger bigger airline that can kick some tail and hopefully provide a living for it's workers and a service to it's customers. Unless an individual can argue that he is being negatively affected by his spot on a list then there's not much he can say. And last but not least, we're all professionals and should continue to act as such. I'd hate to think that the guy that shook my hand and said welcome aboard is the same guy that slams AAI's on this board. I truly think that most of the back and forth is started and comes from those not even working a either company but likes to start crap. Isn't it more fun to luv than to fight?

 

[vixin]

And that's the end of our discussion.

Good luck to you, sir.

Still cant answer a simple question Lear70?

Thanks for the presents its more then Airtran brings. Must be nice to be perfect. But then again you are a tranny. All trannies on top. You guys are so special you should pick your spot on the list.

 

[Lear70]

Are you speaking of what I consider to be "fair and equitable"? Our MEC has asked us not to comment directly on the issue, and I believe that's a perfectly reasonable request, especially since I have no say in the matter other than voicing my opinions to our Merger Committee and waiting for an arbitration result if nothing reasonable can be obtained.

As far as your other questions, if you even raised any valid ones, the only thing I'm hearing from you is irrational arguments, an SLI proposal that is an immediate non-starter, and I really don't have the time or patience to debate someone who's so obviously rancorous and biased. It's a waste of both my time and yours so, again, best of luck to you.

 

[K-Mart]

. Nothing like finding a lottery ticket on the floor.

Easy with the lottery ticket. I attribute that statement with a carrier called United.

 

[Kharma Police]

Still cant answer a simple question Lear70?

Thanks for the presents its more then Airtran brings. Must be nice to be perfect. But then again you are a tranny. All trannies on top. You guys are so special you should pick your spot on the list.

Dude, you sound like Mugatu from Zoolander!

"I feel like I'm taking crazy pills! I invented the piano key necktie, I invented it! What have you done, AirTran? You've done nothing! NOTHIIIING!"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tOrI6uqS-vk

 

[GuppyWN]

While looking at both AAI's and SWA lists I noticed that ours, AAI's, includes DOH and Birthday. SWA includes that plus date of upgrade. I assume the date of upgrade was on there because of the old "up or out" rule. I say get rid of all dates on the new list. All it will do is cause more separation between groups. DOH means nothing to a merged airline so drop it. It would be nice to have a reissued employee number too just to get away from the them vs. us mentallity.

OMG thanks for the laugh. Seriously.

I'm really going out on a limb here but I'm guessing you're an Airtran pilot.

Gup

 

[Kharma Police]

OMG thanks for the laugh. Seriously.

I'm really going out on a limb here but I'm guessing you're an Airtran pilot.

Gup

I think his first sentence was a give away where he worked. You must have been laughing too hard to notice......