SWA hiring and international growth. From Gary

[Esprit]

How does ATA fit into all of this?

 

[NuGuy]

How does ATA fit into all of this?

Only as a warning to others....

Nu

 

[Lear70]

Re-indexing an entire company, even just the pilots, would be a lot of coin... You'd be surprised.

 

[no1pilot2000]

SWA pilot hiring.

I hope the pilot recruiters at SWA get alot of sleep and eat a hearty breakfast the day that they start interviewing pilots. Their computers are going to need some EXTRA hard drive space to handle the HUGE influx of resumes that pilot hopefulls will upload to SWA's computers.

Good luck to all that apply when they start hiring pilots!!!!!

 

[Bob_Sacamano]

I'm on 4th-year pay at SWA. I've made $125,000 so far this year, so I should finish the year at just under $150,000. The TOP of your payscale (12-year Captain) is only $153. Can you please show us the math and explain how you're going to lose $100,000 over 5 years?

For me, it means a likely half-decade delay in upgrade, but a better pay scale as an F/O in the interim. Likely I will lose about $100k in the grand scheme of things over the next half-decade

 

[jonjuan]

Still cant answer a simple question Lear70?

Thanks for the presents its more then Airtran brings. Must be nice to be perfect. But then again you are a tranny. All trannies on top. You guys are so special you should pick your spot on the list.

Maybe you're upset because he'll be slotted ahead of you based on his Flexjet date of hire versus yours.

 

[Lear70]

I'm on 4th-year pay at SWA. I've made $125,000 so far this year, so I should finish the year at just under $150,000. The TOP of your payscale (12-year Captain) is only $153. Can you please show us the math and explain how you're going to lose $100,000 over 5 years?

Without having the exact breakdown of your trips, how much block versus credit you're flying compared hours to TFP, it would appear you are working your butt off almost the most you can make. At the hourly conversion of $108 per hour, you're telling me you're going to credit 1,389 hours this year? Really? Or are you including per diem, vacation pay, JA override, etc?

If you're really interested in a breakdown of an HOURLY comparison for someone who, simply flies their 80 hour line and compare it apples-to-apples, then sure.

Assuming I come over with anywhere NEAR my seniority, and assuming it takes 10 more years to upgrade, my pay starting at 6th year SWA F/O for the next 10 years is:

129 * 1000 hours per year (just an easy averaging tool) = $129,000
134 = $134,000
136 = $136,000
137 = $137,000
141 = $141,000
143 = $143,000
144 = $144,000
144 = $144,000
144 = $144,000
144 = $144,000

Total income the next 10 years: $1,396,000

By DOCC we should have our new contract. The minimums on them are a 30% increase for F/O's, 16% for CA's, give or take a percentage point in the year-by-year flow (taken from our negotiating committee emails and subtracting 10% from those original proposals to come to a real-world "middle ground" figure).

I would then fly 2 more years as an F/O, then upgrade here at AirTran, being in the top 15% of the seniority list on the F/O side.

96 = 96,000
101 = 101,000
153 = 153,000
159 = 159,000
167 = 167,000
171 = 171,000
177 = 177,000
177 = 177,000
177 = 177,000
177 = 177,000

Total income remaining stand-alone at AirTran with our EXISTING, FIRM delivery schedule of aircraft allowing my upgrade in the next two years:

$1,549,000

Loss of $153,000 plus the investment loss of not having that money to invest over that 10 years = easy $200,000 when compounded.

These numbers may make no sense to you now, but when we get our final contract in the next few months and the numbers work out close, it will make much more sense to you.

p.s. It takes about 4 years as a Southwest Captain to make that money back. That's what we give up in this transaction. Present value of money, the ability to invest it now, and 8 years of being a Captain. Not the most important thing in the world, but if I could have my 'druthers, I'd ruther be in the left seat than the right.

YMMV

 

[Lear70]

Maybe you're upset because he'll be slotted ahead of you based on his Flexjet date of hire versus yours.

Do tell...?

Moderator hat on:

No, don't really, that's enough information as it is. Rules is rules.

/mod

 

[jonjuan]

OMG thanks for the laugh. Seriously.

I'm really going out on a limb here but I'm guessing you're an Airtran pilot.

Gup

You just lost 3% on the sli. Wanna go for 4?

 

[Bob_Sacamano]

That would be career suicide. Only 50% +1 of your pilots have to agree to anything. Our FOs make more than 90% of your Captains. I'm REALLY looking forward to arbitration. Since 98% of your pilots voted to walk away from your awesome carrier, ANY arbitrator is gonna see the 100% pay raises as windfall enough. Airtran should try to avoid arbitration at all costs.

We're not going to accept a downgrade for half our CA's and a staple for most of our F/O's./QUOTE]

 

[Lear70]

That would be career suicide. Only 50% +1 of your pilots have to agree to anything. Our FOs make more than 90% of your Captains. I'm REALLY looking forward to arbitration. Since 98% of your pilots voted to walk away from your awesome carrier, ANY arbitrator is gonna see the 100% pay raises as windfall enough. Airtran should try to avoid arbitration at all costs.

Before you get TOO excited about arbitration, kemosabe, you might want to look at how recent arbitrations have gone. Very SPECIFICALLY, they've EXCLUDED monetary increases from having ANY bearing on the SLI discussion.

Seriously. That's fact, go look it up. You can start with DAL/NWA and keep going back 7-10 years. Every time, the money gets pushed aside as a basis for argument. The only thing that matters is career progression and relative health of the carrier.

Your Merger Committee should be communicating these things to you. We already have copies of all those decisions and how they apply... Therefore we feel pretty dang comfortable with our chances in arbitration.

g'night

p.s. Our pilots don't get to vote on the SLI. The voting members are the Merger Committee and our MEC. You can't win by instilling fear in our pilots, those with cooler heads have control and are giving our pilots the info they need to relax and let the process play out. It's set up that way to specifically PREVENT fear of the unknown from swaying votes.

 

[Bob_Sacamano]

I do fly extra, but I TRY to do it smart, extra fly with DHs, VJA, etc. I can tell you I don't know ANYBODY here flying only 80 hours a month. It's not uncommon at all to get 130+ trips per month for lineholders.

Once again, YOU GUYS DON'T HAVE A NEW CONTRACT!!!! You're spending money you don't have. Even with the 30% raises you THINK you might get, your payscales are still lower than ours. BTW, our Section 6 opens again in a year. So the gap would increase again.

Saying that Airtran pilots are gonna lose money with this deal sounds just like a Congressman explain how deficit spending is good for the economy.

These numbers may make no sense to you now, but when we get our final contract in the next few months and the numbers work out close, it will make much more sense to you.

p.s. It takes about 4 years as a Southwest Captain to make that money back. That's what we give up in this transaction. Present value of money, the ability to invest it now, and 8 years of being a Captain. Not the most important thing in the world, but if I could have my 'druthers, I'd ruther be in the left seat than the right.

YMMV

 

[Lear70]

I do fly extra, but I TRY to do it smart, extra fly with DHs, VJA, etc. I can tell you I don't know ANYBODY here flying only 80 hours a month. It's not uncommon at all to get 130+ trips per month for lineholders.

Once again, YOU GUYS DON'T HAVE A NEW CONTRACT!!!! You're spending money you don't have. Even with the 30% raises you THINK you might get, your payscales are still lower than ours. BTW, our Section 6 opens again in a year. So the gap would increase again.

Saying that Airtran pilots are gonna lose money with this deal sounds just like a Congressman explain how deficit spending is good for the economy.

Patience, Bob. We'll have this conversation again in a few months at DOCC when the SLI talks are really spooling up and we'll see where we're at comparing contracts.

Until then, have a beer, since I can't buy you one in person tonight, and realize we're all gonna be OK.

 

[FCNelson]

I was hoping this thread would be about SWA hiring, as that is what this thread's subject entitles.

If you guys want to argue about seniority integration, there is another very-active thread on that exact subject.

FCN

PS - All the facts and numbers thrown back and forth here have fried my brain cells. Based on unofficial observations of friends' Facebook status updates from those who are at either SWA and AirTran, it is the Citrus guys who think they have won the career lottery, while the Southwest guys are sort of ho-hum, but welcoming none the less.

Good luck to all involved - hopefully the integration can be as painless as possible, and with some luck I'll be joining you guys in a couple years once hiring really kicks in.

 

[texman]

Lear,

We get paid trips per pay. I cant remember the exact formula. I get a guarantee of 90 tfp per month on reserve. They fly me about 55 to 75 block hours a month. I blow my guarantee mostly every month. I usually get paid about 105-112 tfp a month on average, and thats working 15 days a month. If you look on ACP, put 85-100 in the credit section that would be a close dollar amount.

Now if you hold a line then you can really make some bank because of the great flexibility in the schedule and what our contract brings you and I. I know that your negotiation team will be impressed with the details.

The trips are real productive. The average duty day is 8.50 hours a day. It's awesome. Work hard play hard.

 

[texman]

I just found out that SWA will inherit 2 billion worth Airtran debt and only pay 265 million out of pocket cash for the deal. Is this true?

 

[Fly-By-Cable]

AirTran's debt as of June 30 included about $280 million in convertible notes, according to a July regulatory filing.

The rest of "debt" is capitalized aircraft operating leases valued at about $2 billion.

 

[texman]

Thanks bro. By the way I am in the same boat as you. I have about 35 years left at SWA we will see how this all plays out.

 

[shagadelic]

Lear,

I think it's funny that you are putting so much stock into the "30% pay raises" that you guys are just bound to get, any day now. I have two responses to that: 1) Counting chickens that haven't hatched yet is like, well, "counting chickens that haven't hatched" and 2) If you actually realize those increases in your pay, it will only be because of the "leverage" that this acquisition by SWA has given you to your management (i.e. they don't want you killing their golden goose). As for your "financial loss" (again, not based on any reality, but what you hope happens in the future vis a vis those raises), well...you really need to call clear skies, 'cuz Son, you been smokin' the crack pipe. Coming to Southwest will be a financial windfall for all you guys - period, end of story. As for that not making any difference in arbitration, look up the arbitrated settlement to the USA/AWA dispatchers integration. Also, the inability to negotiate a contract for the last 5+ years, with the subsequent posturing to seek self-help and get your pound of flesh from a company that wouldn't likely survive a strike...well, that will probably play a part in the upcoming arbitration, too. I'll take our side in arbitration every day, but then again, I work for an airline that is at the top of everyone's career wish list, not for a glorified regional. And soon, you will too, as one of my F/O's.

Peace,
Shagadelic

PS Welcome to the Show!

 

[CHQ Pilot]

In the meantime, we would already have our Bridge Agreement bringing us up to Southwest pay (that comes WAY before the SLI), we'd keep our deliveries as planned, our pilots would upgrade on schedule into Southwest pay on our own fenced side of the house, and you'd operate us separately? And that's bad for us HOW?

I need to go over our M and A comments, but the way I understood things is that per our contract, the SLI will not seriously begin until SWAPA has a transition agreement with SWA. From the time the transaction is closed (sometime during the first half of next year for all the regulatory stuff), there is a two year window for AT to be operated separately in order to conclude an SLI (per the SWAPA contract). During that time AT would operate under the current AT contract and work rules. AT pilots wouldn't receive the pay or work rules until they became SWAPA pilots, which would occur after an SLI.

There may be something in the AT contract that says something different from your side, but the way I understood things is that AT pilots wouldn't receive SWAPA payscales until they became SWAPA pilots.

 

[AFcitrus]

Lear,

I think it's funny that you are putting so much stock into the "30% pay raises" that you guys are just bound to get, any day now. I have two responses to that: 1) Counting chickens that haven't hatched yet is like, well, "counting chickens that haven't hatched" and 2) If you actually realize those increases in your pay, it will only be because of the "leverage" that this acquisition by SWA has given you to your management (i.e. they don't want you killing their golden goose). As for your "financial loss" (again, not based on any reality, but what you hope happens in the future vis a vis those raises), well...you really need to call clear skies, 'cuz Son, you been smokin' the crack pipe. Coming to Southwest will be a financial windfall for all you guys - period, end of story. As for that not making any difference in arbitration, look up the arbitrated settlement to the USA/AWA dispatchers integration. Also, the inability to negotiate a contract for the last 5+ years, with the subsequent posturing to seek self-help and get your pound of flesh from a company that wouldn't likely survive a strike...well, that will probably play a part in the upcoming arbitration, too. I'll take our side in arbitration every day, but then again, I work for an airline that is at the top of everyone's career wish list, not for a glorified regional. And soon, you will too, as one of my F/O's.

Peace,
Shagadelic

I don't often post on this forum but I feel the need to post at this time. I don't think I have ever heard a more ignorant diatribe. This is especially disturbing considering that you claim to come from the AF. Your ignorance and self-glorification are a black eye to every AF pilot whether in the airline community or not. You sir, are tremendously misinformed!

I understand that this is all a big surprise to you. It is a surprise to us as well. But bashing fellow aviators with ignorant and flawed information only serves to discredit yourself, and unfortunately, every other pilot who wears silver wings.

Who knows how this will turn out. Hopefully our merger committees can come to an agreeable SLI that will protect everyones' current and future career. If not, we will follow the process that has been put in place for just such an occasion. Once the decision is made, I hope we will all knuckle down, put our disagreements aside and set forth making SWA the devastatingly unstoppable airline that I know we can be.

Cheers

 

[waveflyer]

Lear... Seriously man- you don't allow any thread get hijacked into a AWA/AAA debate but it's alright when it's your SLI?

Besides that- you're taking the best of all scenarios working out at AT and a middle of the road to worst case scenario happening after the merger- it's a bad comparison and lime I said- this kind of debate is retarded on every level- you want to piss off all the Swa pilots- feed the fire you know will be there- that's your call- but I don't see how that helps your cause at all

 

[Sandhawk]

Why the heck not. All your FO's need to be stapled as well as more then half of your CA should be downgraded, heck they all should. I guess an $60-80,000 raise, better benefits, QOL, company, management etc. are worth nothing in your world.

I agree it will be arbitration and now its just another place go to work. You guys just want everything handed to you. Nothing like finding a lottery ticket on the floor.

Easy with the lottery ticket. I attribute that statement with a carrier called United.

Did Vixin come from UniTed? Seems more like a USAir pilot with that attitude.....

imp:

 

[JT12345]

Lear,

I think it's funny that you are putting so much stock into the "30% pay raises" that you guys are just bound to get, any day now. I have two responses to that: 1) Counting chickens that haven't hatched yet is like, well, "counting chickens that haven't hatched" and 2) If you actually realize those increases in your pay, it will only be because of the "leverage" that this acquisition by SWA has given you to your management (i.e. they don't want you killing their golden goose). As for your "financial loss" (again, not based on any reality, but what you hope happens in the future vis a vis those raises), well...you really need to call clear skies, 'cuz Son, you been smokin' the crack pipe. Coming to Southwest will be a financial windfall for all you guys - period, end of story. As for that not making any difference in arbitration, look up the arbitrated settlement to the USA/AWA dispatchers integration. Also, the inability to negotiate a contract for the last 5+ years, with the subsequent posturing to seek self-help and get your pound of flesh from a company that wouldn't likely survive a strike...well, that will probably play a part in the upcoming arbitration, too. I'll take our side in arbitration every day, but then again, I work for an airline that is at the top of everyone's career wish list, not for a glorified regional. And soon, you will too, as one of my F/O's.

Peace,
Shagadelic

Some of the Captains at Airtran make bout 190-200k a year. And they may lose money with the merger. You see we work hard here. It is why our costs r low too. It is why our loads are high in BWI, MCO, BOS, and MKE. It is why we are expanding in BWI and MCO, and getting airplanes. You are not. We are doubling our MKE presence and you are not. Call it what you will, but we are a thorn in your side for a long time now. SWA wants ATL and we are done fending off Delta on our own. They are just to big now. Win, Win for both of us, but don't say it is a financial windfall. Not for some here at Airtran.

Why dont you talk to some of us, and find out what is going on here before you open your pie hole.

After reading your post I want to know what kind of "culture" you have overthere because that is a far cry from what I have heard. Although I have not heard much recently, and have not been on here much.

Do you really work for SWA or are you just trolling this forum? Your a CFI right or a corporate guy I bet? I know... your a regional guy outta of ATL, and are really really worried if this happens. Maybe junior on the DAL list? They still got those flowbacks?

 

[Dan Roman]

Lear,

I work for an airline that is at the top of everyone's career wish list, not for a glorified regional. And soon, you will too, as one of my F/O's.

Peace,
Shagadelic

Pretty arrogant statement to say the least. I think most people in this industry who don't work at either airline see SWA and AirTran as pretty much as similar as say, NWA and DAL, both legacy airlines. SWA and AirTran do the exact same kind of flying and both are LCC's, what's the dif?
Sure seems like an awful large sense of entitlement among some of the SWA folks on here, is it because you bought a type to get hired and the AirTran folks didn't? I mean really, SWA got it's foot in the door by it's pilots working much longer hours for less pay and forgoing the type of retirement that most airline pilots used to enjoy and you bought type ratings to get hired. I think that's what they call shiny jet syndrome.
I hate to fall in the camp of the SWA bashers as I've met a lot of good SWA folks and you are a very good airline. (so was Pan Am once).
But you guys are really starting to come across as thinking you are the center of the airline universe. You're not, hell your management even tried to codeshare your international 737 flying, to Canada and Mexico no less!

 

[amF16]

Some of the Captains at Airtran make bout 190-200k a year. And they may lose money with the merger. You see we work hard here.


Thats the point........some of your top end Capts make 190K. Alot of our F/O's makes 190k. The disparity in pay is huge.

 

[bluestreaking]

Lear,

I think it's funny that you are putting so much stock into the "30% pay raises" that you guys are just bound to get, any day now. I have two responses to that: 1) Counting chickens that haven't hatched yet is like, well, "counting chickens that haven't hatched" and 2) If you actually realize those increases in your pay, it will only be because of the "leverage" that this acquisition by SWA has given you to your management (i.e. they don't want you killing their golden goose). As for your "financial loss" (again, not based on any reality, but what you hope happens in the future vis a vis those raises), well...you really need to call clear skies, 'cuz Son, you been smokin' the crack pipe. Coming to Southwest will be a financial windfall for all you guys - period, end of story. As for that not making any difference in arbitration, look up the arbitrated settlement to the USA/AWA dispatchers integration. Also, the inability to negotiate a contract for the last 5+ years, with the subsequent posturing to seek self-help and get your pound of flesh from a company that wouldn't likely survive a strike...well, that will probably play a part in the upcoming arbitration, too. I'll take our side in arbitration every day, but then again, I work for an airline that is at the top of everyone's career wish list, not for a glorified regional. And soon, you will too, as one of my F/O's.

Peace,
Shagadelic

PS Welcome to the Show!

Shagadelic,

Comments like this are a complete embarrassment to the rest of us. Why don't you take our union's advice and STFU!

Bluestreaking

 

[scoreboardII]

Lear, your doing a good job here, don't fall for the clowns trying to drag you into the mud.

Hey, here's an idea, lets just pick arbitrators right now, but they need to have been a Playboy centerfold within the last 10 years, college graduates, preferably contract law ( I know I know, I dream). Then we present our sides, tell them to go into a room and come out with a list in 60 minutes. Anyone who doesn't like the list gets a night with the centerfold of their choice.

Win-win.

 

[U2DRVR]

Lear, your doing a good job here, don't fall for the clowns trying to drag you into the mud.

Hey, here's an idea, lets just pick arbitrators right now, but they need to have been a Playboy centerfold within the last 10 years, college graduates, preferably contract law ( I know I know, I dream). Then we present our sides, tell them to go into a room and come out with a list in 60 minutes. Anyone who doesn't like the list gets a night with the centerfold of their choice.

Win-win.

Great idea!!!!

btw, I already don't like the list...repeatedly!

 

[scoreboardII]

Win-win