SWA goes after RJs again

[PCL_128]

How about codeshare and scope?

Meaningless, since outsourcing RJs doesn't work for your business model. That's why the company has never pushed hard for it.

How about average daily guarantee of 6.5?

How about minimum day of 5.0?

These items force the pairing generator to create all non-commutable trips. There are better ways to skin that cat.

How about the highest 737 rates?

As a matter of fact, how about highest narrow body rates except for the Delta 757 which pays $3.00 an hour more?

Contracts are already in place at UAL and DAL that will exceed your rates in short order. After you factor in their retirement, they're already beating you by a significant margin.

 

[redflyer65]

Meaningless, since outsourcing RJs doesn't work for your business model. That's why the company has never pushed hard for it.

Haha, haha, haha, haha, haha, haha.


Absolutely......NO RJ's, NO codeshare, and even NO interline. Nobody comes close.


What an idiot. 'Nuff said.

 

[General Lee]

Come on you PFT sellout! Just admit it. Use that nut drainer of yours for something other than making friends at the gym! Admit it!
You took one of those dreadful RJ jobs that you despise so much. Couldn't get a job anywhere, so you bought your job, like the PFT troll you are!
It's ok, with close to 10,000 posts, you're just as much of a colossal doosh as genital lee!

This from a lav dumper.....but your dude friends "LUV" your blue hands and teeth. Drink up D-weed!


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[General Lee]

Meaningless, since outsourcing RJs doesn't work for your business model. That's why the company has never pushed hard for it.



These items force the pairing generator to create all non-commutable trips. There are better ways to skin that cat.



Contracts are already in place at UAL and DAL that will exceed your rates in short order. After you factor in their retirement, they're already beating you by a significant margin.

PCL,

SWA doesn't seem to want to fly to small cities (outside of TX). They dropped 17 of your former AT cities, and then of course sub leased DL your 717s. It used to be SWA tried to find smaller communities and stay away from big, busy airports. Well, not anymore. So, RJs from smaller cities may not be in your future, even though your twin up in Canada (Westjet) has a "Regional" called Encore flying Dash-8-400s, and they will even be getting 5 767-300ERs for Hawaii service from Calgary and Edmonton.

As far as the rates go, there will be an increase at DL sometime in 2015 most likely, and RA also knows AA has a "me too" clause, so they will mirror DL's rates then.



Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[HowardBorden]

wave, about the only thing you have better than industry standard is minimum days off. Everything else is weak to downright awful. I'm amazed that your reserve pilots haven't completely revolted by now.

These are your words are they not?

Meaningless, since outsourcing RJs doesn't work for your business model. That's why the company has never pushed hard for it.
Do we, or do we not have industry leading scope and codeshare language?


These items force the pairing generator to create all non-commutable trips. There are better ways to skin that cat.
Are our ADG and minimum day industry leading or not?


Contracts are already in place at UAL and DAL that will exceed your rates in short order. After you factor in their retirement, they're already beating you by a significant margin.
Our are 737 rates industry leading or not?

You are certainly entitled to your opinions, but you are NOT entitled to your own FACTS. When you blatantly misrepresent demonstrable FACTS, you just look small, silly and petty.

 

[PCL_128]

No, I don't consider your ADG and min day industry leading, because they create worse schedules!

Industry leading pay? No!

I'll give you the industry leading scope, but as I said, it's basically irrelevant.

 

[HowardBorden]

No, I don't consider your ADG and min day industry leading, because they create worse schedules!

Industry leading pay? No!

I'll give you the industry leading scope, but as I said, it's basically irrelevant.

lead-ing;
1: coming in or ranking first : foremost.

When your ADG and min day are higher than anyone else's, that is by very definition, industry leading.

When your 737 pay is higher than anyone else's, that is by very definition, industry leading.

When your scope clause is better than anyone else's, that is by very definition, industry leading.

If you want to proclaim your opinion is that those things that are industry leading don't matter, then that is your opinion and you are entitled to it, but you can't change the facts.

 

[redflyer65]

Howie,

This is what it looks like when someone tries to defend the indefensible. Kind of like Jay Carney.

Just looks more and more like a fool every time they open their mouth.

Excellent entertainment though.

Again, Delta can't touch our...

1. Scope
2. Rigs/Work rules. (remember premium time for pretty much any schedule change)
3. Reserve days off.
4. Pay

We are behind on retirement. And Delta is improving on pay, and that's a good thing. But they would kill for the other items they don't have.

 

[PCL_128]

Howie, a number being bigger doesn't necessarily make it "leading." Reference golf scores, for example. If your ADG and min day mean I spend more days away from home because I can't commute, then it's not "leading."

 

[redflyer65]

So if commuting on both ends is the be-all, end-all...guess what? You'd make a TON less money in the long run for that commute. Which is a stupid argument in the end.

3 hour terminal walks at Delta and commutable on both ends? You can have it. I'll take the SW rig of 6.5/day, everyday and twice on Sunday.

 

[PCL_128]

You don't have to lose any money for it. Your schedules aren't exactly loaded with money, despite what you think. Our average line value was always a lot higher than yours, but with mostly commutable trips. It's about how the pairings are constructed, and constructing them with an artificial constraint that requires a min day of 5.0 will screw up commutable schedules every time.

 

[HowardBorden]

Howie, a number being bigger doesn't necessarily make it "leading." Reference golf scores, for example. If your ADG and min day mean I spend more days away from home because I can't commute, then it's not "leading."

You absolutely can't win on this BS argument! The reason we average more days off than everyone else is exactly because of our industry leading rigs. We don't do 30 hour sits in out stations because of our industry leading rigs. If we sat in an out station for 30 hours (a day not spent at home), we would be paid a minimum of 5 TFP's or the ADG of 6.5 for doing so.

Industry leading pay? No!

Southwest 737: $216

Delta 737: $212
United: $205
Alaska: $200
American: $181
USAir: $181

Good Lord man, stop trying to defend these positions that are simply indefensible.

 

[waveflyer]

No, I don't consider your ADG and min day industry leading, because they create worse schedules!

Industry leading pay? No!

I'll give you the industry leading scope, but as I said, it's basically irrelevant.

Worse schedules.

This is simply an opinion on your part.

You say non-commutable- but this is airline 6 for me- 4 of which were hub and spoke -
It's that model which creates commutable schedules, not our rigs. Our bases are created when we reach a tipping point with terminators. A hub and spoke carrier has bases in their hubs-
It's just a different dynamic

Prove that one out a little more - how would lowering our rigs make better schedules. If there are other ways to skin that car- please demonstrate.

As for commutable my sleep improved and blood pressure dropped significantly when I got hired here.

I don't commute and I will say that I like getting off work and having a bank of flights to catch - just for when I want to travel.
It bums me out a little that SWA doesn't have that bc for me to travel now, it's go home, unpack, sleep, get back in the monkey suit and nonrev-
It's much nicer to just go when you're already there.
And I see how it sucks for commuters-
But for family and healthy living?

I love flying my PMs and keeping my sleep consistent.

117 didn't address it, but the #1 most fatiguing element of airline schedules is reversing your sleep schedule each and every week. Day 1: start late, maybe commute in in the morning. Fly til midnight-
Fly 4 days- and by the last day up at 4am to be done before that last bank or two.
Day 5 was always zombie day no matter how easy the flying in between was-
I also love that our model has me doing more flying in 3 days than I used to do in 4. And on much smaller duty times.
At hub and spoke, we routinely would fly 12+ hours- several times per month-
We bitch about 10 hours here.

It isn't perfect but my body goes to bed and wakes at the same time every day working or not-
And that will make one happier and healthier over time

 

[Nindiri]

And this is why we won't get a better contract.

 

[Scoot 11]

This from a lav dumper.....but your dude friends "LUV" your blue hands and teeth. Drink up D-weed!


Bye Bye---General Lee

Slow day as a Skywest dispatcher, A'hole?
You better shine up those knee pads kid, cause the f/a you're blowing continues to give you wrong info!
D-bag!

 

[HowardBorden]

Our average line value was always a lot higher than yours, but with mostly commutable trips. It's about how the pairings are constructed, and constructing them with an artificial constraint that requires a min day of 5.0 will screw up commutable schedules every time.

What were the day off totals of these lines with "line values always a lot higher"?

At SWA we average 18 days off for line holders and 15 for reserve.

And as an aside, I am a commuter and I fly non-commutable trips about 2% of the time. Occasionally I will fly an AM trip simply because it fits where I need it to and I spend an extra night in a hotel. Every one of my PM trips do not require a hotel stay on the beginning or end of a pairing.

 

[waveflyer]

No nindiri-
We do need a better contract with improvements-
But pcl just doesn't know what he's talking about.

 

[waveflyer]

Howie, it's not a commutable line unless you never need a hotel on your dime. Common at most airlines.

My point is that 4 day domestic trips are also the standard vs rare at SWA. The real comparison is a fully commutable, relatively inefficient 4 day at a hub and spoke vs out commutable on 1 side only, efficient, 3 day - out of pocket for the other night and all day to make the commute.

 

[HowardBorden]

Howie, it's not a commutable line unless you never need a hotel on your dime. Common at most airlines.

My point is that 4 day domestic trips are also the standard vs rare at SWA. The real comparison is a fully commutable, relatively inefficient 4 day at a hub and spoke vs out commutable on 1 side only, efficient, 3 day - out of pocket for the other night and all day to make the commute.

I never need a hotel on my dime. Sometimes I choose to pay for a hotel on my dime because it works out better for my scheduling needs. Normally, i.e. 98% of the time I fly PM trips. I commute in the day it begins in the AM, and I commute home on a red-eye the day it ends. The only time I buy a hotel room is when I choose to do so because it makes my life easier and that is done rarely at most.

 

[waveflyer]

Ah-
Well, lots of commutes have no such red-eyes- but I get you

 

[Nindiri]

No nindiri-
We do need a better contract with improvements-
But pcl just doesn't know what he's talking about.

Oops, sorry Wave, I wasn't really aiming at you there, we just happened to post at nearly the same time. I was actually referring to no one in particular, just this attitude that we have the most awesomest contract ever, when in reality it's pretty average and needs improvements. We need to stop doing GK's job for him.

 

[HowardBorden]

Ah-
Well, lots of commutes have no such red-eyes- but I get you

Yes, I am extremely fortunate in that regard. And in the interest of full disclosure, I misspoke when I said I commute home on the day my trip ends. Technically, the first of my two red eye options actually departs at 12:10am so it actually departs the day after my trip ends. But either way I am responsible for no hotels on my own dime.

 

[General Lee]

Yes, I am extremely fortunate in that regard. And in the interest of full disclosure, I misspoke when I said I commute home on the day my trip ends. Technically, the first of my two red eye options actually departs at 12:10am so it actually departs the day after my trip ends. But either way I am responsible for no hotels on my own dime.

So, you take Spirit to MSP from LAS at 1210am? Which nights usually?



Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[waveflyer]

What's up with delta creeps stalkers the last few days?
Why don't you and scoot just stalk each other

 

[General Lee]

What's up with delta creeps stalkers the last few days?
Why don't you and scoot just stalk each other

Huh? So Howie lives in MSP, no biggie. He already said in previous posts that he was LAS based, and not many other SWA hubs have allnight commute ability. Pretty easy to figure out, if you're an absolute genius. You're welcome!



Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[HowardBorden]

Huh? So Howie lives in MSP, no biggie. He already said in previous posts that he was LAS based, and not many other SWA hubs have allnight commute ability. Pretty easy to figure out, if you're an absolute genius. You're welcome!

Wrong again smart guy. You got the right half of the country, but wrong base.

 

[ron burgundy]

Cool.
A thread started as RJ's..SCOPE issues, turned into .."my watch, my company, my W2, my days off"!

For a detailed oriented group..Ya don't seem to grasp much!

 

[PCL_128]

Prove that one out a little more - how would lowering our rigs make better schedules. If there are other ways to skin that car- please demonstrate.

It's not about lowering the rig, it's about eliminating the min day and going to purely an average day. The average day and the rigs will ensure the efficiency, but a min calendar day or duty period minimum over 4 hours will make it impossible for the pairing generator to spit out commutable pairings on a consistent basis. Your point-to-point network actually makes it easier for the pairing generator to create efficient trips that are commutable, but you're artificially constraining it with the min day. The job of the pairing generator is to spit out a solution that saves the company the most money while still complying with all of the constraints. So when you plug in a 5 hour min calendar day or min duty period, it will do everything in its power to make all of the pairings have no duty periods or days with less than that amount, commutability be damned.

In reality, the average day is what really matters. A 26 hour 4-day pays the same 26 hours whether it's spread out over the 4 days or crammed mostly into the middle 2 days. If I can have a trip that puts 8 hours into each of the middle 2 days, that leaves only 4 hours on the beginning and ending day, making it far more likely that they'll be commutable. But if the pairing generator is running a solution, and it has a trip with 26 hours, but the beginning and ending days have only 4.5 hours on them, and you've got a 5 hour min day, guess what the generator is going to do? It's going to tack on another short out-and-back to make sure that the company doesn't pay you 0.5 hours each of those days for flying that you didn't do.

Scheduling constraints are a double edged sword. You want to make sure that you design them so that the company doesn't make your schedules inefficient, but you don't want to make them so constraining that the pairing generator screws you over. Obviously, for the greedy f-cks who don't care about spending time at home, none of this matters. But for the people who do, how you design scheduling rules is of the utmost importance.

 

[PCL_128]

Yes, I am extremely fortunate in that regard. And in the interest of full disclosure, I misspoke when I said I commute home on the day my trip ends. Technically, the first of my two red eye options actually departs at 12:10am so it actually departs the day after my trip ends. But either way I am responsible for no hotels on my own dime.

Having to take a red eye is not a commutable trip. If you're not getting home the same day your trip ended, then you're losing a day off. Suddenly an 18 day off line is really a 14 day off line.

 

[HowardBorden]

It's not about lowering the rig, it's about eliminating the min day and going to purely an average day. The average day and the rigs will ensure the efficiency, but a min calendar day or duty period minimum over 4 hours will make it impossible for the pairing generator to spit out commutable pairings on a consistent basis. Your point-to-point network actually makes it easier for the pairing generator to create efficient trips that are commutable, but you're artificially constraining it with the min day. The job of the pairing generator is to spit out a solution that saves the company the most money while still complying with all of the constraints. So when you plug in a 5 hour min calendar day or min duty period, it will do everything in its power to make all of the pairings have no duty periods or days with less than that amount, commutability be damned.

In reality, the average day is what really matters. A 26 hour 4-day pays the same 26 hours whether it's spread out over the 4 days or crammed mostly into the middle 2 days. If I can have a trip that puts 8 hours into each of the middle 2 days, that leaves only 4 hours on the beginning and ending day, making it far more likely that they'll be commutable. But if the pairing generator is running a solution, and it has a trip with 26 hours, but the beginning and ending days have only 4.5 hours on them, and you've got a 5 hour min day, guess what the generator is going to do? It's going to tack on another short out-and-back to make sure that the company doesn't pay you 0.5 hours each of those days for flying that you didn't do.

Scheduling constraints are a double edged sword. You want to make sure that you design them so that the company doesn't make your schedules inefficient, but you don't want to make them so constraining that the pairing generator screws you over. Obviously, for the greedy f-cks who don't care about spending time at home, none of this matters. But for the people who do, how you design scheduling rules is of the utmost importance.

The minimum day is especially important to me and I wouldn't give it up for anything.

As I was commuting two weeks ago I had to ride the jumpseat and had a chance to discuss legacy airline hub and spoke scheduling practices. After dropping me off the crew was flying one more leg to their 30 hour layover in a small Midwest city. The pay for that day of fun was per diem only.

The minimum day rig would have required the crew to be paid whether they flew or not, creating a huge disincentive for that scheduling practice. I realize that the intricacies of a hub and spoke model sometimes require either a thirty hour sit or a CDO to handle the last flight in of the night and the first flight out in the morning. For these reasons I don't prefer that type of flying. I prefer to fly each and every day of my trip allowing me to spend that 30 hours at home instead of Timbuktu.

The reason SWA averages more days off across the board for line holders and reserve line holders is the rigs we have in place that force productive trip pairings. I want densely packed productive trips because they allow more time off. When I'm at work I don't mind being productive, in fact I relish it because I am allowed more time at home.