SWA culture!

[rajflyboy]

Lear, from the snapshot, swa continued to hire in 2008 several months longer than AT did. There are several hundred FOs at WN who would be placed junior to your bottom guy w/ straight DOH- the bottom FOs at AT were furloughed in '09- for how long?

Furloughs were 9/3/2008 and no 09. There were 169. First recalls in December 2008 and continued every month thereafter. I know, I was one of them.

Bingo

 

[Luv2BFlyin]

What? Lateral move, really? I mean seriously, you've got to be joking.

You tell me what's lateral, and what might be higher. I'd like to know where your baseline is. Feel free to use any and all carriers..

It's just my personal opinion but after being able to hold captain here, I considered them all as lateral or worse to go to as a new hire. Wouldn't want to chase a few dollars more for loss of seniority and QOL for an undeterminable amount of time. YMMV, newhires or fo's with no upgrade in sight may feel differently.

 

[Fubijaakr]

You're kidding yourself if you believe this pilot group, including the FOs, will vote to approve a deal that knocks a relatively senior captain like Ty out of his seat. The idea of any captain losing his seat is absurd.

So what part of "No bump, no flush" eludes you? Look, man, I love you, but you know as well as I do that putting a pre-1993 AAI Capt. next to a 30 year SWA Capt. is absurd on the face of it.

Here's the solution:

1. No bump no flush
2. Put the pre-October 1993 SWA Capts. on the list.
3. Ratio the rest.

Simple. End of story.

Didn't pass the interview?

Listen, Homeboy. In 1990 when I was looking for a job, I couldn't affort the $8K it took to get a 737 type rating just to get an interview with SWA. I guess you could make the argument that YOU bought your job. The fact is, that's neither here nor there.

But to pretend that somehow SWA pilots are superior to AAI pilots is ridiculous.

Face it, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to fly a 737. The sooner you guys figure that out, the sooner the merger will go smoother. You are all SWA pilots now. Neither group is better than the other.

Seriously, get over yourself. Just remember the 737 is the ENTRY level jet in every single third world country on Earth. Lufthansa F/Os are flying it with commercial ratings that are still wet on their certificates.

 

[waveflyer]

Lear, from the snapshot, swa continued to hire in 2008 several months longer than AT did. There are several hundred FOs at WN who would be placed junior to your bottom guy w/ straight DOH- the bottom FOs at AT were furloughed in '09- for how long?

Furloughs were 9/3/2008 and no 09. There were 169. First recalls in December 2008 and continued every month thereafter. I know, I was one of them.

How long was your most junior pilot furloughed? What was the average furlough length?

I certainly don't want to play politics with your pain, but did you know that over the same time period SWA used all means to avoid furloughs and working w/ SWAPA, we all made significantly less $$ with lower line credits during that same time? SWA had the belief and faith in their pilots & culture and the means to not furlough. With SWA's #'s during the meltdown, every other airline would have furloughed, and did with their own #'s. That ought to tell you about mgmt and Swapa.
For those who don't think the culture of swa is alive and well within Swapa- you do not know what you're saying. We have our debates- but we absolutely look out for each other.

 

[waveflyer]

It's just my personal opinion but after being able to hold captain here, I considered them all as lateral or worse to go to as a new hire. Wouldn't want to chase a few dollars more for loss of seniority and QOL for an undeterminable amount of time. YMMV, newhires or fo's with no upgrade in sight may feel differently.

See, here's where capitalism and competition come into play. You upgraded, had good timing and rode a wave- had to look at your choices and chose to stay, or had to for whatever reason, and are comfortable with your niche in a smaller carrier. But smaller carrier's have inherent risk of failure or acquisition- you got acquired- that's good! and you'll be rewarded very well- but that doesn't mean you get to keep your big fish in a little pond status. That pond is now a much larger body of water.

 

[Dan Roman]

I moved up 130 numbers in ten years, the vast majority of those numbers were retirements, medicals or death. Hardly the exodus you guys are fantasizing about. Two went to SWA, one to Fedex, 2 to Emirates, one to Delta. Perhaps there were more, but it was very unusual, an oddity.

Once guys made captain here, there wasn't much of an incentive to start over. When growth slowed, some junior guys made the decision to go elsewhere, but plenty of pilots left SWA, as well. Lots of 'em. Don't expect an Arbitrator to be as impressed by anecdotes as some of you are.

Seems like a more accurate picture. I'm blown away that some folks think an arbitrator would take into account what airline had the most turnover. If you want to use that logic, what would happen if someone like United bought SWA. Would the senior SWA people be at a disadvantage because in the 80's and 90's more people preferred to work for UAL than SWA?

 

[waveflyer]

Fubi-
No one is saying we are better aviators - we are saying that we have the better, more difficult to get, JOB.
A LOT of people didn't have the money for the type, including me. Hell, I didn't have the money for flight school! But I figured it out bc I really wanted to be here. (and still do and consider that sacrifice the best investment I ever made)
Your statement highlights just 1 of the additional sacrifices Swapa pilots made to get the job. IMO, that's relevant.
Back in the day, you weren't willing to scrap, save, beg, or rearrange your finances for $8k - and took the job that didn't need it. IMO- that's a choice you can live with, but ought not be rewarded.

 

[Just thinking]

Wave flyer,
Another great example of the pilots of SWA working WITH a management that works WITH their pilots. Our senior group of pilots collectively agreed to take a pay freeze to keep all pilots on property after 9/11. Management agreed to do the same. Guess what happened? Management took huge bonuses! Think Herb would have done that to the people that he sat across the table from and shook hands?

Our club 169 guys got hosed over and threatened with their jobs by our austere management and their keen insight into future requirements. A member of our management team said that they never would have furloughed had they know that the fuel prices would have dropped as rapidly as they did in 2008. Our management has no integrity and is the quintessential "Frog and the Scorpion."

Our pilot group has stepped up time and time again to support each other with NO help from our management. You will find our group of pilots professional, considerate and hard working with a kind heart and a willingness to go the extra mile for our "flying family".

 

[waveflyer]

Seems like a more accurate picture. I'm blown away that some folks think an arbitrator would take into account what airline had the most turnover. If you want to use that logic, what would happen if someone like United bought SWA. Would the senior SWA people be at a disadvantage because in the 80's and 90's more people preferred to work for UAL than SWA?

I'll go Ty's route- IF UAL had bought SWA in the 80's & 90's (neverminding the impossibility of that during that time), yes- you are right. And if we bought them in the PRESENT time, the fact that we have hundreds of ex-UAL castaways here at swa ought to be weighed heavily. What is actually being considered are career expectations- nothing highlights a difference in career expectations than when individuals leave one for another. ESPECIALLY in our seniority controlled industry. It means a LOT when someone is willing to start over.

Funny thing is, the PRESENT time, is actually what counts.

 

[SWA/FO]

BTW, get over yourself, this is not a chance of a lifetime for any of us. This is merely an airline merger, not the first, and won't be the last.

Get over myself? WTF, I didn't build this airline all by myself. I'd say pull your head out of your ass or would you rather be bought by Republic? This is a chance of a lifetime. You are stupid if you can't see it. :cartman:

 

[redflyer65]

For people to argue that getting the job at both AAI and SW was the same, or that the contract payrates aren't 'that far apart', or that the career expectations are really the same because they both fly a 737, is completely ludicrous.

We are all going to find out what Gary's vision for this SLI is pretty soon and I think it might be eye opening to say the least.

 

[tico]

If you exclude all the kernals, what do you suppose the avg age of a swa new hire has been.....

 

[Tweet-a-Lishus]

Guys after reading all of this bull********************, I want to remind e everybody, that this is not a merger but an acquisition. The sooner everyone realizes this the sooner we can get this integration done. Everyone does realize that what Gary wants Gary will get. PCL is probably more of a positive for the SWA integration than we all realize. Go ahead and try the ALPA mentality on us. This should get interesting. I to am hopeful it all works out, but hey, Trannies need to acknowledge first the good thing they are getting from SWA BUYING them. No merger here boys and girls. Ok Ty, Fire away.

 

[GuppyWN]

This thread has sure taken a nasty turn today! We must be getting close 'cause everybody is getting pissed off!

Gup

 

[hairball1173]

How long was your most junior pilot furloughed? What was the average furlough length?

I certainly don't want to play politics with your pain, but did you know that over the same time period SWA used all means to avoid furloughs and working w/ SWAPA, we all made significantly less $$ with lower line credits during that same time? SWA had the belief and faith in their pilots & culture and the means to not furlough. With SWA's #'s during the meltdown, every other airline would have furloughed, and did with their own #'s. That ought to tell you about mgmt and Swapa.
For those who don't think the culture of swa is alive and well within Swapa- you do not know what you're saying. We have our debates- but we absolutely look out for each other.
__________________
From 9/3/2008 till that December is 3 month off property. Return calls where sent and classes were pretty full and most returned unless you were military or on a contract employment etc. You can surmise the math from there. You seem like a smart guy.

When I was furloughed I wasn't really worried what SWA was doing. I was more concerned about my life and my family. I mean there were friends and family hit by that event and we all, not just myself, stepped up to the plate and made it right. Capt/FO gave $ to help them more than you can imagine to these families during that time.

I look forward to calling myself swapa and count the days but I am also proud to call myself Airtran and safely fly each and every pax to and from and back again.

 

[SWA/FO]

Ty "No SWAPA for YOU!" and PLC "you're gonna have to learn how to fly, cus you ain't going to be working within SWAPA, ever."

 

[tico]

For the airtran guys it is too bad Herb is not in charge....had the opportunity twice to spend a little quality time with the man...solidly in the camp of the underdog and an incredible sense of fair play.....Gary seems to be just a really smart businessman who is a little awkward with people.....with friends on both sides of all seniority, I am looking forward to the end of all this.....If done properly it will help all of us and if not it will simply arm the cannons of our demise....good luck y'all

 

[KLJ]

Face it, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to fly a 737.

Bingo! We have a winner! ANYONE can fly a 737 -- that's not the discriminator. Perhaps having certain personality traits is what makes SWA pilots and our culture different from others?

KJ

 

[PCL_128]

So what part of "No bump, no flush" eludes you? Look, man, I love you, but you know as well as I do that putting a pre-1993 AAI Capt. next to a 30 year SWA Capt. is absurd on the face of it.

Here's the solution:

1. No bump no flush
2. Put the pre-October 1993 SWA Capts. on the list.
3. Ratio the rest.

Simple. End of story.

As we've discussed privately, I still disagree. Sorry. I'll just leave it at that, since our MC doesn't want us getting into details on SLI stuff publicly.

 

[Daddy]

Guys after reading all of this bull********************, I want to remind e everybody, that this is not a merger but an acquisition. The sooner everyone realizes this the sooner we can get this integration done. Everyone does realize that what Gary wants Gary will get. PCL is probably more of a positive for the SWA integration than we all realize. Go ahead and try the ALPA mentality on us. This should get interesting. I to am hopeful it all works out, but hey, Trannies need to acknowledge first the good thing they are getting from SWA BUYING them. No merger here boys and girls. Ok Ty, Fire away.

This is a good point to make right now...I think there are a lot of folks at AAI making gross misjudgments about the "LUV" airline. It seems like some think SWA will accept them with open arms no matter what. Let me tell you that NOTHING could be further from the truth. This airline is built on the "luv culture" and all, but they would absolutely gut a competitor like a fish if given the chance and would do so to any labor group that tried to challenge said culture in an ALPA-like fashion.

Gary Kellly is so risk averse it isn't funny...no way is he going to let this (or any other labor group) go to arbitration and have a chance of a USAir/AmWest fiasco. This airline is many things, but there are two things that do NOT play here....high costs and labor strife. I think the F9 pilots learned that the hard way and not a whole hell of a lot has changed since then. The best thing SWA got from this deal was the elimination of its biggest competitor. After that it is back to business as usual as soon as possible. I would not mess with Gary...he has structured this deal so that he has control over the final product...there is a reason for that.

 

[Ty Webb]

Deleted.

 

[GoodTimes]

Daddy hits one out of the park! Worth reading twice, IMHO.

 

[Bob Dylan]

For the airtran guys it is too bad Herb is not in charge....had the opportunity twice to spend a little quality time with the man...solidly in the camp of the underdog and an incredible sense of fair play.....Gary seems to be just a really smart businessman who is a little awkward with people.....with friends on both sides of all seniority, I am looking forward to the end of all this.....If done properly it will help all of us and if not it will simply arm the cannons of our demise....good luck y'all

Excuse me while I vomit! Yeah we all feel real bad for the trannies with all their improved benefits, QOL increases and HUGE raises. I feel so bad for them getting bought and getting the best airline contract in the industry. God forbid they get stapled and start at the bottom of the SWA seniority list just like all other SWA pilots. Boo hoo for them.

Offer them a staple. I they turn it down offer them pref. interviews.

 

[Flycatcher99]

This is a good point to make right now...I think there are a lot of folks at AAI making gross misjudgments about the "LUV" airline. It seems like some think SWA will accept them with open arms no matter what. Let me tell you that NOTHING could be further from the truth. This airline is built on the "luv culture" and all, but they would absolutely gut a competitor like a fish if given the chance and would do so to any labor group that tried to challenge said culture in an ALPA-like fashion.

Gary Kellly is so risk averse it isn't funny...no way is he going to let this (or any other labor group) go to arbitration and have a chance of a USAir/AmWest fiasco. This airline is many things, but there are two things that do NOT play here....high costs and labor strife. I think the F9 pilots learned that the hard way and not a whole hell of a lot has changed since then. The best thing SWA got from this deal was the elimination of its biggest competitor. After that it is back to business as usual as soon as possible. I would not mess with Gary...he has structured this deal so that he has control over the final product...there is a reason for that.

Exactly.

 

[tico]

The cage fight will end up between the top of the swa fo's and the bottom of the airtran captains....some of those fo's will get some of those capt. spots and some won't..the "no bump-no flush will stop about 15-20 % from the bottom of the airtran captain list and ratioing will occur until the last airtran captain gets hit. From there it will be the remainder of the swa fo's followed by all the airtran fo's......

 

[carl p]

Bingo! We have a winner! ANYONE can fly a 737 -- that's not the discriminator. Perhaps having certain personality traits is what makes SWA pilots and our culture different from others?

KJ

FWIW, I think these are the type of posts that give AT pilots and outsiders the impression that SWA pilots view others as "inferior". In 18 years I've personally flown with probably 20 guys that got hired at SWA, in addition to about 20 guys who applied and didn't get hired. I can assure you that while most who left for SWA were great pilots/people there were a couple real head scratchers. By the same token a few of the best pilots/people I've ever flown with were turned down (some multiple times).

The AT group is proud of the airline it has built in spite of abusive management. In only 17 years it has grown to become a major airline with a better contract than some legacies. We are used to having to fight for survival, and when you imply that we are somehow not as good as you because xyz it only calls upon that pride that we've used to battle with Delta, SWA, and our management. You see, we've had to do more with less and done it well enough that you bought us rather than compete against us. The more you tell your little brother he's not as good, the harder he works to prove he is... This is why the more we are told what a crappy stepping stone airline we work for, we fight back harder. It's that pride that will help us fit in well with SWA. I will admit that sometimes it feels disrespectful.

Make no mistake, we realize it is a BLESSING to have an opportunity to be a part of SWA. We are not greedy or unappreciative and I can assure you we want the culture to thrive moving forward. In my opinion SWA is the best job in the biz, but please stop trying to convince us that our airline sucked and we are barely worthy of sharing the air with you. I'd bet a $100, 5 years from now you couldn't tell whether a SWA pilot was hired or acquired by watching he/she perform their duties.

More bees with honey fellas...

Happy 4th!!!

 

[Fubijaakr]

I want to remind e everybody, that this is not a merger but an acquisition. The sooner everyone realizes this the sooner we can get this integration done.

Why don't you just post "Hired, not Acquired"? It'll save you some typing.

Perhaps having certain personality traits is what makes SWA pilots and our culture different from others?

Would that be the fighter pilot mentality as demonstrated by Capt. J. Taylor? I don't think I'd be too proud of being known as homophobic and misogynistic.

As we've discussed privately, I still disagree. Sorry. I'll just leave it at that, since our MC doesn't want us getting into details on SLI stuff publicly.

Of course you do. And I would expect you to. I would also expect you to honor the wishes of your MEC. However, I have no skin in the game and really don't care one way or the other. I just propose what I think would be fair. I'd propose exactly the same solution if WE had merged/bought AAI.

 

[KLJ]

when you imply that we are somehow not as good as you

I did not make that implication at all - my point is not that a SWA pilot is better than any other 737 pilot - they are just different.

For you to take it any other way just proves my point.

KJ

 

[SWA/FO]

Make no mistake, we realize it is a BLESSING to have an opportunity to be a part of SWA. We are not greedy or unappreciative and I can assure you we want the culture to thrive moving forward. In my opinion SWA is the best job in the biz

We = All Air Tran Pilots minus Ty Webb and PCL.

The day I interviewed at Southwest there were 12 in my group, they only hired 2. The day I interviewed at Air Tran (@ Air Inc.) there were 6 of us, they hired 5.

 

[sfomarc]

FWIW, I think these are the type of posts that give AT pilots and outsiders the impression that SWA pilots view others as "inferior". In 18 years I've personally flown with probably 20 guys that got hired at SWA, in addition to about 20 guys who applied and didn't get hired. I can assure you that while most who left for SWA were great pilots/people there were a couple real head scratchers. By the same token a few of the best pilots/people I've ever flown with were turned down (some multiple times).

The AT group is proud of the airline it has built in spite of abusive management. In only 17 years it has grown to become a major airline with a better contract than some legacies. We are used to having to fight for survival, and when you imply that we are somehow not as good as you because xyz it only calls upon that pride that we've used to battle with Delta, SWA, and our management. You see, we've had to do more with less and done it well enough that you bought us rather than compete against us. The more you tell your little brother he's not as good, the harder he works to prove he is... This is why the more we are told what a crappy stepping stone airline we work for, we fight back harder. It's that pride that will help us fit in well with SWA. I will admit that sometimes it feels disrespectful.

Make no mistake, we realize it is a BLESSING to have an opportunity to be a part of SWA. We are not greedy or unappreciative and I can assure you we want the culture to thrive moving forward. In my opinion SWA is the best job in the biz, but please stop trying to convince us that our airline sucked and we are barely worthy of sharing the air with you. I'd bet a $100, 5 years from now you couldn't tell whether a SWA pilot was hired or acquired by watching he/she perform their duties.

More bees with honey fellas...

Happy 4th!!!

Great post. Look forward to working with you sooner rather than later.