SWA culture!

[ivauir]

Re-read what I wrote- I said I hadn't mentioned my SLI expectations since 2010, when our respective MC/NC's asked us not to.

That's why it is irrelevant.

Sheesh. :erm:

Ty,

I don't follow your made up rules.

The fact is that we all know where you stand on SLI expectations. Noted. Stop playing the victim. You kicked over the hornets nest. Move on.

 

[Ty Webb]

Lear, Baghdad Bob is back on my "ignore list". Sorry for stinkin' up the place. I'm outta here for the weekend. :beer:

TW

 

[Flycatcher99]

It's not an expectation, it's a statement of fact- there has never been an arbitrated agreement between two non-bankrupt airlines that bumped Captains out of the seat they had held for the past 7 years. If this one is different, you can do the happy dance.

Well, I don't expect this to go as far as arbitration, but if that is true, alright. You can expect what you want, given that none of the arbitrated rulings you've mentioned bear any resemblance to what is going on here. I'm simply a bit amazed that you, with a straight face, can say that you think it is the right of all AAI Captains to keep their seats in this acquisition, when there are 10-year FO's at SWA.

I didn't have to respond to this, others did. Since you missed it-

The Arbitrator sets the implementation date. If the company doesn't want to combine operations, they have 18 months from DOCC to do something else. I don't see them doing that just to keep you from having to abide by the agreement you signed.

Yes, I saw that response. You guys keep thinking within the bounds of the Process Agreement. The Process Agreement only applies to one situation, and it's spelled out in the introduction of the Process Agreement. If that scenario doesn't pan out, then the Process Agreement does not even apply.

 

[GuppyWN]

Looks like Senior WN management wanted a couple more days off this weekend. The negotiating meeting in Dallas next week has been postponed.

We can all put away our swords and focus on drinking beer this weekend. We will refocus our attacks on each other at a later date.

Thank you for your cooperation and have a nice day.
Gup

 

[OldManPilot]

Well, I don't expect this to go as far as arbitration, but if that is true, alright. You can expect what you want, given that none of the arbitrated rulings you've mentioned bear any resemblance to what is going on here. I'm simply a bit amazed that you, with a straight face, can say that you think it is the right of all AAI Captains to keep their seats in this acquisition, when there are 10-year FO's at SWA.

We All understand the 10-year FO situation. Are you saying the price that we AAI Pilots must pay is giving up seats on aircraft that we bring with us for these FO's?

Are they not being upgraded with aircraft that were AAI deliveries to be taken this year? Plus those coming?
What about our FO's that were waiting for these deliveries to upgrade themselves. See my point? Nothing will be perfect. We must all take the "treat each other well" attitude to get through this. We will all grow.

Hope this is understandable.

 

[Lear70]

Looks like Senior WN management wanted a couple more days off this weekend. The negotiating meeting in Dallas next week has been postponed.

We can all put away our swords and focus on drinking beer this weekend. We will refocus our attacks on each other at a later date.

Thank you for your cooperation and have a nice day.
Gup

Yeah saw that... the 12th is what they put out day before yesterday.

GAME OFF!

Happy Independence Day to everyone. Thankful we live in a country where we can all have a debate like this, then put down the sabers and go have a beer together.

:beer:

 

[Cometman]

Well, I don't expect this to go as far as arbitration, but if that is true, alright. You can expect what you want, given that none of the arbitrated rulings you've mentioned bear any resemblance to what is going on here. I'm simply a bit amazed that you, with a straight face, can say that you think it is the right of all AAI Captains to keep their seats in this acquisition, when there are 10-year FO's at SWA.

We All understand the 10-year FO situation. Are you saying the price that we AAI Pilots must pay is giving up seats on aircraft that we bring with us for these FO's?

Are they not being upgraded with aircraft that were AAI deliveries to be taken this year? Plus those coming?
What about our FO's that were waiting for these deliveries to upgrade themselves. See my point? Nothing will be perfect. We must all take the "treat each other well" attitude to get through this. We will all grow.

Hope this is understandable.

That is life. Your airline was bought by another airline. You have to pay something. You will still be OK after it is complete. GK will make sure that SWAPA is protected. There is no way there will be a 5-6 year Air Tran Captain at SWA after the fence.

 

[shootr]

Which brings me to the more important point- the rest of the Company employees. This merger is happening, and operations will be combined, because it is the best thing to do, for the Company, for ALL employees, and shareholders . . . . . not just the pilots.

Don't count on this. Do you have any idea how much uglier the maintenance combined list process is going to be? We might come to an agreement and the whole thing goes away, anyway. You should all look into this angle. Really ugly without a solid chance of combing without massive furloughs. AT has almost as many mechs as SWA with less than 1/3 the airplanes.

shootr

 

[Flycatcher99]

We All understand the 10-year FO situation.

Do you? Because you and Ty are pretty deft at avoiding answering the question. I'll ask you again. Do you think all AAI Captains, including ones that have been employed there for only 5 years, deserve to be SWA Caps above 10-year FO's?

Are you saying the price that we AAI Pilots must pay is giving up seats on aircraft that we bring with us for these FO's?

I shouldn't have to answer this question until you answer mine, but I will anyway. You guys are getting gains no matter what seat you end up in. Not arbitrary gains, or intangible gains, like "Gee this is gonna be a great company to work for when we get together", or "Gosh, I can't wait to see the growth potentials become reality!" No, I mean cold, hard cash gains, and benefits gains, and scheduling gains, and domicile gains, etc. So if it works out that you lose a captain seat, you don't lose money, but gain it.

Are they not being upgraded with aircraft that were AAI deliveries to be taken this year? Plus those coming?

We have no growth explicitly planned. None. I honestly don't know what you're talking about, beyond some optimistic, hopeful, forward-looking statements from GK. Not that I don't believe him, but you know as well as I do that you can't get excited about upgrade classes until you see them on the schedule. I'm sure Gary is optimistically hoping for all that, but even he will tell you that nothing is concrete until it's actually happenning. Which it isn't, yet.

And by the way, all these "gains" that you say SWA guys are getting, would actually benefit you all too. When you talk long-term growth after the merger, and more deliveries, IF those things happen, then those are shared gains, that you get on top of the immediate fiduciary and other gains you get the day you step on property. How does that make your proposed merger "fair and equitable"?

What about our FO's that were waiting for these deliveries to upgrade themselves.

What about them? See my comment above. Do you have upgrades scheduled? If so, you have a point, but either way, your FO's, regardless of whether they are or aren't about to upgrade, have unbelievable gains around the corner at SWA once they are on the list.

See my point? Nothing will be perfect. We must all take the "treat each other well" attitude to get through this. We will all grow.

Hope this is understandable.

I agree that we should "treat each other well", but it's funny how that request comes after AAI guys get demanding, and then SWA guys try to point out the flaws in the arguments. Honestly, I look forward to working with you guys, and to the day when much/all of this is behind us. In the meantime, a little less entitlement from certain folks will go a long way to enhancing brotherhood.

 

[Lear70]

I don't know why this myth is perpetuated, it's been explained several times:

THERE ARE NO 5-6 YEAR CA'S AT AAI.

The most junior one is at 7 years and most are 8+. The point being, you're probably only talking about 100-150 CA's that have the inverted DOH issue with SWA F/O's. Not making an argument about whether they should stay in their seats, just making sure you guys are seeing the bigger picture about how many people we're talking about (less than a year's upgrades on the SWA side for retirements starting in 2012).

 

[GuppyWN]

Not quite.

The most junior WN Captain was hired 11 years ago yesterday.

ALL BUT 480 AAI CAPTAINS would be junior to our guy by DOH.

Gup

 

[redflyer65]

Well stated Flycatcher.

I guess Fair and Equitable is all good unless it cuts the other way. I find it interesting that some junior AAI captains really expect to keep there seats and get all that the SWAPA contract brings with it. I've even heard them state it will be great to be based where they live (like HOU or BWI) and keep their seat....really? I think some need a complete reality check on this stuff.

I hope that the AAI MC can talk some sense into the rank and file, if not this could turn out much worse in the long run.

 

[texman]

Yall are a bunch of brothers picking on each other. I am your daddy! So stop! LOL! Yall drink some beer and have good weekend.

 

[Lear70]

So you're saying almost HALF our CA's are junior to at least your #1 F/O?

If so (and I'd have to look at our seniority list compared to yours to see the numbers), that's about 2 years of upgrades for retirements on the SWA side, notwithstanding growth, correct?

 

[On Your Six]

You're right Ty, the wholly-owned sub is called AirTran Airways...for now. If SWA chooses to keep you as a wholly-owned, they can name you whatever they please.

Regarding codeshare, you're almost half right. Though our current contract prohibits domestic codeshare, I'm quite sure our pilots would be willing to waive that part under certain circumstances. As far as your contract, don't be foolish enough to think any language in you new contract can prevent SWA from doing whatever it wants with you.

There's a reason your MC is so actively requesting that your group lower its expectations lately. They know what can and can't happen. Listen closely to them when they explain it to you.

Had an Airtran jumpseater yesterday tell me GK wants this deal to go faster, which is putting pressure on SWAPA. Arbitration will make it go really fast.



OYS

 

[Just thinking]

....."I'm simply a bit amazed that you, with a straight face, can say that you think it is the right of all AAI Captains to keep their seats in this acquisition, when there are 10-year FO's at SWA.".......

How many of those 10-year FO's at SWA bypassed the upgrade when it came? Did they bypass because there was not an upgrade available at their current base? Did they bypass the upgrade for QOL issues? If Oakland is the most junior base then every pilot that upgraded should have been at Oakland. Maybe they missed their opportunity to upgrade when they bypassed and the economy tanked and the upgrades dried up? Maybe they chose to stay DAL based instead of jumping on the grenade and upgrading into OAK. Just as AAI has 10 year FO's that chose not to upgrade for QOL they also have to wait for their opportunity if they want to upgrade when times are slow for the upgrade. They have to wait for the vacancy to post and then their SENIORITY dictates who gets the seat. Just because an AAI FO wants to upgrade does not mean they can kick a junior Captain out of his seat.


Point of clarification..... How many SWA FO's have more LONGEVITY with SWA than your most junior Captain (Jun 2001 hire?)

 

[GuppyWN]

This message is hidden because On Your Six is on your ignore list.

But I can guess what you said.

Lear, I mistyped. Our junior Captain STARTED his 11th year yesterday. But it is correct that AAI only has 480 +/- Captains senior to him. Or said differently our junior Captain is senior to 75% of all AAI pilots.

Hopefully that helps put in perspective what a windfall relative or DOH would be for you guys.

Have a good one. There's a whiskey with my name on it.
Gup

 

[dicko]

No, I mean cold, hard cash gains, and benefits gains, and scheduling gains, and domicile gains, etc. So if it works out that you lose a captain seat, you don't lose money, but gain it.

A Captain at AirTran who has been here for 8+ years is on $ 153 an hour. The 8 year FO rate at SWA is around $139 (converted from TFP).

It's a pay cut to become a SWA FO.

The fact that you could make more if you jump through hoops doesn't interest everybody. Nor is it set in stone. I do recognize that for some there may be the QOL differences.

 

[Dash Power]

A Captain at AirTran who has been here for 8+ years is on $ 153 an hour. The 8 year FO rate at SWA is around $139 (converted from TFP).

It's a pay cut to become a SWA FO.

The fact that you could make more if you jump through hoops doesn't interest everybody. Nor is it set in stone. I do recognize that for some there may be the QOL differences.

How much was the Captain rate at Airtran on September 27th?

 

[jball2]

I have really tried to take the high road with this but I have to speak my peace and I will leave this thread alone. When it comes down to it, you have to understand the we at SWA are very protective of what we have. To have someone with 50% less longevity think they are entitled to a position above us on the seniority list IS the entitlement we refer to. We HAVE worked longer and harder to get where we are. This is not to say anyone is lesser of an aviator at AAI. It means we put more into getting to our position WHERE WE ARE. It is no mystery AAI was plan b or c for a large part of your list. You cannot dispute that, if you do you are being disingenuous. Hell, I live in Atlanta and it was never even an option based on the working conditions there.

In closing, I am sorry if my rant offends my future family members. I am just trying to put into words what most of us think. I have been here 10 years, just like our buddy Ty. He, as well as others IMPLY they deserve more than their longevity will hold because they upgraded lightning fast at Airtran and to us it is ludicrous. If being a 737 CA is the only true career expectation we should all apply for XTRA air or Vision street captain spots. Fire Away! I have worked too hard for this.