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SWA/Airtran Process Agreement??

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You know the BEST part about not being a Mod anymore?

"Bob Dylan is now on your ignore list."

:D

Back to (mostly) lurking... Not worth the angst with our future coworkers. You guys and gals have fun out there today! :) Going to enjoy the last of my 24 hour LAX layover; the beach was awesome, got some goodies for our back end return crew and some awesome sushi (some of the best in the country is here on the left coast). Life is good, enjoy it! :D
 
SWA/FO said:
Sure, you'll say "Landing Gear Up" and I'll say "Positive Rate Tranny Ass Landing Gear up" (then I will move the Landing gear lever with my right hand).

Remember, You'll be pulling gear for me too (everyother leg) But don't worry, I'll let you do the log book and all the walkarounds you can handle.
Click to expand...

Wouldn't it be kind of awkward to raise the landing gear handle with your right hand while sitting in the right seat?!?! I know you guys have different procedures, and I'm cool with that, but since you are an FO, maybe try using your left hand to raise the gear. Just a suggestion, I'm gonna put it out there; if you like it, you can take it, if you don't, send it right back...........
 
madjack said:
OYS/GL/-9CPT/Et.al.,

.AAI pilots gain a better contract/company/career potential/LIFE...for that they must give up seniority, .
Click to expand...

Guarantee me those things and we can talk about giving up seniority.

History guarantees pay, QOL and company stability change. Ask anyone from UsAir,DAL,UAL etc. Not long ago SWA was losing pilots to all of them. Now they're on top, good for them, that will change. For all I know I might make less at SWA in a few years than I make now. Think that can't happen? Ask Capt Sully.

Comparing seniority to a current CBA is apples to oranges, a known to a variable. Arbitrators know this.
 
-9Capt said:
Guarantee me those things and we can talk about giving up seniority.

History guarantees pay, QOL and company stability change. Ask anyone from UsAir,DAL,UAL etc. Not long ago SWA was losing pilots to all of them. Now they're on top, good for them, that will change. For all I know I might make less at SWA in a few years than I make now. Think that can't happen? Ask Capt Sully.

Comparing seniority to a current CBA is apples to oranges, a known to a variable. Arbitrators know this.
Click to expand...

Two points - although your point about history guaranteeing that pay, QOL, and company stability change is valid, it is also valid to point out that historically (without exception) SWA has exceeded AAI in every category, throughout the lifetime of AAI. There is nothing that suggests that would change in the future.

Secondly, although you are afraid of "giving up seniority", I think you have it wrong. No one is going to ask you to give up seniority, mostly because on the SWAPA master pilot list, where you will end up, you currently have no seniority status at all. What we do expect is that the seniority that you accrued at AAI will be fairly and equitably translated to appropriate seniority on the combined list. The inclusion of "equitable" in the A/M provisions implies that all seniority is not inherently equal, and that a fair solution requires making an equitable conversion. As a tongue-in-cheek example, it would be similar to coming back from Mexico and converting your pesos to dollars. Obviously, they are valued differently because they were earned in different environments and surely you wouldn't expect to receive 1 P per $1. Similarly, it would be neither fair nor equitable for the seniority you earned at Air Tran to be converted to SWAPA seniority on a 1% for 1% basis i.e. relative seniority. (BTW, my peso analogy was not meant to offend, you guys are not Mexico to our United States - probably closer to use the $ vs the Euro ;)).

As to what's "fair and equitable", hopefully our NC/MC's can figure that out. If not, it will be what the arbitration panel says it is. At the end you will "lose" all your AAI seniority as they'll cease to exist and it will be replaced with SWAPA seniority, at an exchange rate TBD. The only guarantee I will make is that you will still be senior to everyone you are senior to now :D.

Respectfully and Fraternally,
PapaWoody
 
GoodTimes said:
Post of the year.
Click to expand...

Agreed. I too agree with his assessment that it will look like the Dollar to Euro exchange rate which is approximately 1 to 1.5, straight down the list. 10 years aai=6.677 SW, etc.
 
Last edited:
madjack said:
OYS/GL/-9CPT/Et.al.,

Both sides have a lot to gamble on here...SWA pilots have no contractual gains as a result of this acquisition and will probably have AAI pilots on the list ahead of them...AAI pilots gain a better contract/company/career potential/LIFE...for that they must give up seniority, the only question is how much...so what is so unfair about that?...or is it fair for the AAI pilots to keep same rel seniority, be operated separately as Guadalupe Holdings with the pay and benefits gain of the SWA contract...the latter may be the best outcome...
Click to expand...

A lot of what you said happened during the DL/NWA merger. DL pilots came away with some stock, and a joint contract that gave them a 5% raise initially, and a 17% total raise for the 4 year contract. That was about it. The NWA guys got to keep their pensions, and got about a 20 or 25% raise PER HOUR, and stock. Not everyone is happy with that, and oil was at $130 a barrel and climbing at the time, so it is what it is, bad timing. But, not every group wins in a merger. But, arbitration settled the SLI in a fair manner. Someone without a stake in the merger made the decision after looking at facts and hearing testimony. Embrace that, and it will be fine.



Bye Bye---General Lee
 
-9Capt said:
Guarantee me those things and we can talk about giving up seniority.

History guarantees pay, QOL and company stability change. Ask anyone from UsAir,DAL,UAL etc. Not long ago SWA was losing pilots to all of them. Now they're on top, good for them, that will change. For all I know I might make less at SWA in a few years than I make now. Think that can't happen? Ask Capt Sully.

Comparing seniority to a current CBA is apples to oranges, a known to a variable. Arbitrators know this.
Click to expand...

Why give up any seniority that you have earned? The SWAPA people don't owe you a dime, it is management who is buying you and merging you. The SWA pilots aren't losing a dime, and you are willing to just give up seniority to them? Who do you think is incharge, anyway? You DESERVE certain seniority, and arbitrators will determine where that is. SWAPA would rather have you at the bottom, and it sounds like you might be willing to give it up, for something SWAPA has no real control over. GK wants the merger, and you are a part of it.

I would say that is the WORST post of the year. Try to undserstand your part in this merger, and what you deserve. You will work just as hard as the SWA guys eventually, right? Why should you give up seniority for that? They didn't decide on this merger, GK did. Get some confidence and stay the course, and get arbitration to MAKE SURE this is fair.


Bye Bye--General Lee
 
madjack said:
-9,

I guess we can both agree that we hope this whole thing blows up and goes away...and you can stay at AAI.
Click to expand...


Idle threat alert! GK wants this done, along with Wall Street.


Bye Bye---General Lee
 
Lear70 said:
You know the BEST part about not being a Mod anymore?

"Bob Dylan is now on your ignore list."

:D

Back to (mostly) lurking... Not worth the angst with our future coworkers. You guys and gals have fun out there today! :) Going to enjoy the last of my 24 hour LAX layover; the beach was awesome, got some goodies for our back end return crew and some awesome sushi (some of the best in the country is here on the left coast). Life is good, enjoy it! :D
Click to expand...

Lear,

Wait until you and Ty fly together and have sushi in LBB and MAF! Captain Ty can buy for everyone. Is saki a part of the 1 2 3 rule? Ty will be able to afford it, all of you will.


Bye Bye---General Lee
 
Last edited:
PapaWoody said:
Two points - although your point about history guaranteeing that pay, QOL, and company stability change is valid, it is also valid to point out that historically (without exception) SWA has exceeded AAI in every category, throughout the lifetime of AAI. There is nothing that suggests that would change in the future.

Secondly, although you are afraid of "giving up seniority", I think you have it wrong. No one is going to ask you to give up seniority, mostly because on the SWAPA master pilot list, where you will end up, you currently have no seniority status at all. What we do expect is that the seniority that you accrued at AAI will be fairly and equitably translated to appropriate seniority on the combined list. The inclusion of "equitable" in the A/M provisions implies that all seniority is not inherently equal, and that a fair solution requires making an equitable conversion. As a tongue-in-cheek example, it would be similar to coming back from Mexico and converting your pesos to dollars. Obviously, they are valued differently because they were earned in different environments and surely you wouldn't expect to receive 1 P per $1. Similarly, it would be neither fair nor equitable for the seniority you earned at Air Tran to be converted to SWAPA seniority on a 1% for 1% basis i.e. relative seniority. (BTW, my peso analogy was not meant to offend, you guys are not Mexico to our United States - probably closer to use the $ vs the Euro ;)).

As to what's "fair and equitable", hopefully our NC/MC's can figure that out. If not, it will be what the arbitration panel says it is. At the end you will "lose" all your AAI seniority as they'll cease to exist and it will be replaced with SWAPA seniority, at an exchange rate TBD. The only guarantee I will make is that you will still be senior to everyone you are senior to now :D.

Respectfully and Fraternally,
PapaWoody
Click to expand...


But, as the Process Agreement states (as signed by all parties including GK), if there isn't an agreement on the SLI, it will head for arbitration. I don't trust anything that one Union with a large stake in the outcome prints as an agreement for the other. Just take it to arbitration, and let them deal with it afterwards. GK wants this deal done, and arbitration is the fair way to really get your EARNED seniority. Why let SWAPA decide where you fall? Let someone looking in from the outside with no stake in the outcome decide.

And read that last sentence of his above. It is obvious that you will stay senior to someone below you on your OWN list, but that is all he is guaranteeing. If you should be senior to Papa Woody, then you should be on the combined list. An arbitrator would figure that out.



Bye Bye---General Lee
 
Last edited:
General Lee said:
Lear,

Wait until you and Ty fly together and have sushi in LBB and MAF! Captain Ty can buy for everyone. Is saki a part of the 1 2 3 rule? Ty will be able to afford it, all of you will.


Bye Bye---General Lee
Click to expand...


Capt. Ty often treats the whole crew to dinner and drinks on AAI pay . . . . what am I supposed to do on SWA pay? Throw in a show, too? ;)
 
General Lee said:
Idle threat alert! GK wants this done, along with Wall Street.


Bye Bye---General Lee
Click to expand...

We actually agree On something. Yes he wants this thing done. That however is contradictory to your statement.

I'll say again, you guys thing the more you post the same, identical piece, the more of a chance is has to all of a sudden become true, fact or an honest variant of some sort of manipulated opinion.

Good try however. And classy!

Anyway moving on ... I think we can all agree GL hosts the post arbitration party. Just not sure if that is being that part is not spelled out. Oh yea, you forgot about that. I think it's more along the lines of you keep repeating yourself. It's ok. Stay classy!
 
General Lee said:
But, as the Process Agreement states (as signed by all parties including GK), if there isn't an agreement on the SLI, it will head for arbitration. I don't trust anything that one Union with a large stake in the outcome prints as an agreement for the other. Just take it to arbitration, and let them deal with it afterwards. GK wants this deal done, and arbitration is the fair way to really get your EARNED seniority. Why let SWAPA decide where you fall? Let someone looking in from the outside with no stake in the outcome decide.

And read that last sentence of his above. It is obvious that you will stay senior to someone below you on your OWN list, but that is all he is guaranteeing. If you should be senior to Papa Woody, then you should be on the combined list. An arbitrator would figure that out.



Bye Bye---General Lee
Click to expand...

Wow, General...you really pointed out the cogent portions of my post. I feel so enlightened now. A couple of questions though -

Doesn't each Union have a large stake in the outcome, or are you trying to insinuate that only SWAPA has a large stake? Spot on analysis. Of course, when you were reading the process agreement, you must have missed the part about negotiating a solution first, then mediation, and arbitration. At no point is SWAPA going to solely dictate the SLI. Of course, I can understand why a DAL guy would fear negotiations, since you routinely get your asses handed to you on a plate in that arena, but believe it or not, it just might work in this case. If not, we have a process established - one, I might add, that did not require your signature to approve.

Although you like to hold yourself as the master of the obvious on this board, you apparently haven't mastered recognizing obviously satirical remarks. But please keep it up, it shows how obviously out of touch with this whole debate you are, since you can only continue to espouse your pre-conceived notions of "fair and equitable is what Gen Lee says it is". The great thing about it is that my opinion does actually count for more than yours, since I will be voting on any agreement. You on the other hand, will continue to be an insignificant spectator. Enjoy!

PapaWoody
 

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