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SWA/Airtran Process Agreement??

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madjack said:
-9,

I guess we can both agree that we hope this whole thing blows up and goes away...and you can stay at AAI.
Click to expand...


Idle threat alert! GK wants this done, along with Wall Street.


Bye Bye---General Lee
 
Lear70 said:
You know the BEST part about not being a Mod anymore?

"Bob Dylan is now on your ignore list."

:D

Back to (mostly) lurking... Not worth the angst with our future coworkers. You guys and gals have fun out there today! :) Going to enjoy the last of my 24 hour LAX layover; the beach was awesome, got some goodies for our back end return crew and some awesome sushi (some of the best in the country is here on the left coast). Life is good, enjoy it! :D
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Lear,

Wait until you and Ty fly together and have sushi in LBB and MAF! Captain Ty can buy for everyone. Is saki a part of the 1 2 3 rule? Ty will be able to afford it, all of you will.


Bye Bye---General Lee
 
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PapaWoody said:
Two points - although your point about history guaranteeing that pay, QOL, and company stability change is valid, it is also valid to point out that historically (without exception) SWA has exceeded AAI in every category, throughout the lifetime of AAI. There is nothing that suggests that would change in the future.

Secondly, although you are afraid of "giving up seniority", I think you have it wrong. No one is going to ask you to give up seniority, mostly because on the SWAPA master pilot list, where you will end up, you currently have no seniority status at all. What we do expect is that the seniority that you accrued at AAI will be fairly and equitably translated to appropriate seniority on the combined list. The inclusion of "equitable" in the A/M provisions implies that all seniority is not inherently equal, and that a fair solution requires making an equitable conversion. As a tongue-in-cheek example, it would be similar to coming back from Mexico and converting your pesos to dollars. Obviously, they are valued differently because they were earned in different environments and surely you wouldn't expect to receive 1 P per $1. Similarly, it would be neither fair nor equitable for the seniority you earned at Air Tran to be converted to SWAPA seniority on a 1% for 1% basis i.e. relative seniority. (BTW, my peso analogy was not meant to offend, you guys are not Mexico to our United States - probably closer to use the $ vs the Euro ;)).

As to what's "fair and equitable", hopefully our NC/MC's can figure that out. If not, it will be what the arbitration panel says it is. At the end you will "lose" all your AAI seniority as they'll cease to exist and it will be replaced with SWAPA seniority, at an exchange rate TBD. The only guarantee I will make is that you will still be senior to everyone you are senior to now :D.

Respectfully and Fraternally,
PapaWoody
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But, as the Process Agreement states (as signed by all parties including GK), if there isn't an agreement on the SLI, it will head for arbitration. I don't trust anything that one Union with a large stake in the outcome prints as an agreement for the other. Just take it to arbitration, and let them deal with it afterwards. GK wants this deal done, and arbitration is the fair way to really get your EARNED seniority. Why let SWAPA decide where you fall? Let someone looking in from the outside with no stake in the outcome decide.

And read that last sentence of his above. It is obvious that you will stay senior to someone below you on your OWN list, but that is all he is guaranteeing. If you should be senior to Papa Woody, then you should be on the combined list. An arbitrator would figure that out.



Bye Bye---General Lee
 
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General Lee said:
Lear,

Wait until you and Ty fly together and have sushi in LBB and MAF! Captain Ty can buy for everyone. Is saki a part of the 1 2 3 rule? Ty will be able to afford it, all of you will.


Bye Bye---General Lee
Click to expand...


Capt. Ty often treats the whole crew to dinner and drinks on AAI pay . . . . what am I supposed to do on SWA pay? Throw in a show, too? ;)
 
General Lee said:
Idle threat alert! GK wants this done, along with Wall Street.


Bye Bye---General Lee
Click to expand...

We actually agree On something. Yes he wants this thing done. That however is contradictory to your statement.

I'll say again, you guys thing the more you post the same, identical piece, the more of a chance is has to all of a sudden become true, fact or an honest variant of some sort of manipulated opinion.

Good try however. And classy!

Anyway moving on ... I think we can all agree GL hosts the post arbitration party. Just not sure if that is being that part is not spelled out. Oh yea, you forgot about that. I think it's more along the lines of you keep repeating yourself. It's ok. Stay classy!
 
General Lee said:
But, as the Process Agreement states (as signed by all parties including GK), if there isn't an agreement on the SLI, it will head for arbitration. I don't trust anything that one Union with a large stake in the outcome prints as an agreement for the other. Just take it to arbitration, and let them deal with it afterwards. GK wants this deal done, and arbitration is the fair way to really get your EARNED seniority. Why let SWAPA decide where you fall? Let someone looking in from the outside with no stake in the outcome decide.

And read that last sentence of his above. It is obvious that you will stay senior to someone below you on your OWN list, but that is all he is guaranteeing. If you should be senior to Papa Woody, then you should be on the combined list. An arbitrator would figure that out.



Bye Bye---General Lee
Click to expand...

Wow, General...you really pointed out the cogent portions of my post. I feel so enlightened now. A couple of questions though -

Doesn't each Union have a large stake in the outcome, or are you trying to insinuate that only SWAPA has a large stake? Spot on analysis. Of course, when you were reading the process agreement, you must have missed the part about negotiating a solution first, then mediation, and arbitration. At no point is SWAPA going to solely dictate the SLI. Of course, I can understand why a DAL guy would fear negotiations, since you routinely get your asses handed to you on a plate in that arena, but believe it or not, it just might work in this case. If not, we have a process established - one, I might add, that did not require your signature to approve.

Although you like to hold yourself as the master of the obvious on this board, you apparently haven't mastered recognizing obviously satirical remarks. But please keep it up, it shows how obviously out of touch with this whole debate you are, since you can only continue to espouse your pre-conceived notions of "fair and equitable is what Gen Lee says it is". The great thing about it is that my opinion does actually count for more than yours, since I will be voting on any agreement. You on the other hand, will continue to be an insignificant spectator. Enjoy!

PapaWoody
 
GL Said: "Let someone looking in from the outside with no stake in the outcome decide."

Well he has no stake in this and does not have to live with the outcome...

Ty: no seat is protected in the current SWA CBA.....? U can still afford 2 buy on SWA FO pay...
 
I'm sure there will be protections in any negotiated or arbitrated SLI for both the SW FO's and junior Airtran Captains. Arbitrators have never taken a position away from a pilot and Gary Kelly does not want to downgrade 400 Airtran pilots and upgrade 400 SW pilots into those positions...not only would Airtran pilots lose their seat, other Airtran pilots would be displaced. So 800 training events and potential 400 pilots moving costs (not sure if that is in the SW CBA) would be money down the drain. There are many innovative solutions that protect both pilot groups AND the company. Gary Kelly could take that money that would be wasted and potentially use that money to pay the SW Fo's captain's pay that are senior to Airtran Captains. Who freakin knows...point is there are sooooo many ways this could be done fair and the culture preserved.
 
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madjack said:
-9,

I guess we can both agree that we hope this whole thing blows up and goes away...and you can stay at AAI.
Click to expand...

You: I want your seniority
Me: Ahh, No.
You: Oh yeah, well maybe you'll be out of a job then.
Me: Blow me.
 
PapaWoody said:
As to what's "fair and equitable", hopefully our NC/MC's can figure that out. If not, it will be what the arbitration panel says it is.
Click to expand...

That much I agree with, sort of.

I'll wager it goes to an arbitrator. I can't see our MC bring back anything that would pass on the SWA side.
 
-9Capt said:
You: I want your seniority
Me: Ahh, No.
You: Oh yeah, well maybe you'll be out of a job then.
Me: Blow me.
Click to expand...

There you go. Believe it or not, I am not trying to cause discord between you and your fellow bretheren at SWA. You eventually will be flying together. Rather I am making sure that some of you THINK about what really is going on here, and start asking questions to your NC and MEC members. Don't give in to False premises like "You deserve this" or "You owe us", because in reality, you don't. GK liked your airline, decided to merge with it, and you will work just as hard for the new company as current SWA pilots do. You deserve the same pay, and you also deserve a spot on the seniority list that you earned. An arbitrator can figure that out for you, without the pressure from the union or crazy corndogs on this forum.



Bye Bye---General Lee
 
-9Capt said:
That much I agree with, sort of.

I'll wager it goes to an arbitrator. I can't see our MC bring back anything that would pass on the SWA side.
Click to expand...

Very smart, and you are probably right. Honestly, I see the SWA people wanting most of the Captain slots, or will say there could be a base freeze for positions, and then SWA will start shifting positions to other bases. You just never know. They only thing that can keep you in your seat or give you a spot where you deserve to be is arbitration. Those arbitrators know SWA is getting a bunch of Airtran planes, and those planes should continue to have Airtran Captains in charge of them. But, if you ask SWA/FO or madjack, they probably think you should kiss their boots and be happy in the right seat, because they are the ones who are ALLOWING you to be there????



Bye Bye--General Lee
 
GL: The only thing I have been hearing from the AAI guys is we want to keep our seats (which means relative seniority) and the raise...so how is that fair for the SWA pilots?...as much as you dislike SWA, M/B protects the SWA pilots also...it is a little irksome to hear Ty talk about all the money he is going to be making as a SWA CP, when SWA junior CPs and LCs may lose their seats...
 
Please explain General how a pilot from one company "earned" his seat at another conpany by not passing an interview, not meeting qualifications, and not meeting a board. Your logic would induce that any pilot that gets hired at any company should be put in the left seat. We've all earned it. So let SLI so it's job. It is not a pilot's seat but the company's for who he flies. Seniority does rule so why not fight for the Swa guys to keep theirs. One conclusion, pot stirring.
 
N1kawotg said:
Please explain General how a pilot from one company "earned" his seat at another conpany by not passing an interview, not meeting qualifications, and not meeting a board. Your logic would induce that any pilot that gets hired at any company should be put in the left seat. We've all earned it. So let SLI so it's job. It is not a pilot's seat but the company's for who he flies. Seniority does rule so why not fight for the Swa guys to keep theirs. One conclusion, pot stirring.
Click to expand...


Your problem is that you think EVERYONE wants to be at Southwest. Great, your pay is FANTASTIC. Hopefully others will attain that same payscale soon. But, not every Airtran guy wanted to go to Southwest, or buy a type, etc. Maybe those Airtran guys were ASA guys, and wanted to fly from home in ATL. You never know.

GK wanted to merge with Airtran for a reason. He got the WHOLE company, seats and all. He got the planes, and the people, and the slots at LGA, and DCA, and gates in ATL, etc. Those Airtran people earned it, and maybe some of them interviewed at SWA, but a lot probably did not.

And I love hearing about past Airtran pilots that decided to leave (on their own) and go to SWA. That is called bad timing, especially if they were Captains at Airtran. People make choices in life, and that might have been a bad one, just like those SWA Captains that supposedly went to United before 9-11. That turned out to be a bad choice. Good at the time, bad now.

So, not everyone wants or needs to go to SWA, but those Airtran guys now don't have a choice, even if it is a better choice now pay and benefits wise. GK wanted Airtran, and he has them now.



Bye Bye---General Lee
 
N1kawotg said:
Please explain General how a pilot from one company "earned" his seat at another conpany by not passing an interview, not meeting qualifications, and not meeting a board. Your logic would induce that any pilot that gets hired at any company should be put in the left seat. We've all earned it. So let SLI so it's job. It is not a pilot's seat but the company's for who he flies. Seniority does rule so why not fight for the Swa guys to keep theirs. One conclusion, pot stirring.
Click to expand...


Even if it goes relative how does any SWA pilot lose seniority? They don't lose money, they don't lose bidding power, vacation slots, bases, or anything else. You say its not a pilot's seat but the company's who he flies for. Now we all fly for the same company just have different bargaining agents. No SWA guy will lose anything. Even if it goes relative they have not lost any seniority. 99.9% of AAI guys meet and exceed SWA's mins . GK and the shareholders decided they wanted this deal and they made it happen. You can say AAI guys are lesser pilots and lesser people all day long but that doesn't make it so. You have earned your job and we have earned ours. Get over yourself. You are no better than the other thousands of pilots out there.
 
They lose money by delays in upgrade, week ends off etc. As you say, they didn't choose Swa but how did they earn it. So I guess a new hire hired after will go in front of everyone if they were a capt previously, they earned it right?
 

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