SWA/Airtran Process Agreement??

[ArcadiaMaxima]

Lear your right...my bad it is just rumors why get all riled up over this stuff, it is just money....what do we know anyway. We are not part of the NC or union leadship like John Juan or PCL...my bad

 

[GoodTimes]

L70,

See my edited response.

 

[PCL_128]

No to very little progress at all, then the acquisition is announced and all the sudden a TA pops up out of nowhere.

The TA hardly popped up out of nowhere. Almost all of the agreement was done months before the merger announcement. Only compensation, insurance, and signing bonus remained when the merger was announced.

Ty's analysis is spot-on. This contract never would have even gone to a pilot vote if this merger didn't spring up. The pay rates just weren't up to par, nor were the signing bonus or the insurance premiums. But with the merger announcement, our leverage disappeared. The NMB wasn't going to release a pilot group into self-help with a merger pending. With the loss of leverage, the pilot group had to settle for the gains that could be achieved without the threat of self-help.

How about the group like Ty or would he rather I use his real name? With the threats of usair and sickouts. I am very surprised A T puts up with that. Ty even slams his own group if they disagree with him. He is a poison to any team he is on.

You guys really don't know what you're talking about. Ty is about the most easy going guy you'll find. Hopefully most SWA pilots know not to listen to what people say on the Pprune.

 

[Lear70]

Sorry, you're absolutely right, I get caught up in all this, too.

We're going to get through this, everyone (including me sometimes) is freaked out and just needs to RELAX (again, me included). :beer:

 

[GoodTimes]

Negotiated = Implemented
Arbitrated = not so much

 

[Bake]

I would trust anything on the Prune before this place. PCL, you have to be joking.

 

[SWA/FO]

You guys really don't know what you're talking about. Ty is about the most easy going guy you'll find. Hopefully most SWA pilots know not to listen to what people say on the Pprune.

Pprune rules! Everything is covered over there.

 

[ArcadiaMaxima]

I know... I now know what Ty looks like now from his LinkedIn website....and his real name. I won't post it here because that is not right....but now I know...small world ladies

 

[Kharma Police]

I know... I now know what Ty looks like now from his LinkedIn website....and his real name. I won't post it here because that is not right....but now I know...small world ladies

Don't worry, Ty and his lawyer will know your name too once FI gets subpoenaed for the lawsuit for a hostile working environment. Don't think it can't happen?, ask your favorite moderator to fill you in......

 

[Ty Webb]

. . . . .

 

[Bob Dylan]

Don't worry, Ty and his lawyer will know your name too once FI gets subpoenaed for the lawsuit for a hostile working environment. Don't think it can't happen?, ask your favorite moderator to fill you in......

Um, do people really take this website seriously? This place is a joke and only mildly entertaining. But a total joke.

 

[Cometman]

Don't worry, Ty and his lawyer will know your name too once FI gets subpoenaed for the lawsuit for a hostile working environment. Don't think it can't happen?, ask your favorite moderator to fill you in......

Please. Hostile work environment. He doesn't even work for SWA yet. And besides, what can any pilot do to make a hostile work environment, not talk to him? I am surprised that you would make such a statement. You seemed to be making more intelligent statements lately.

 

[Kharma Police]

Please. Hostile work environment. He doesn't even work for SWA yet. And besides, what can any pilot do to make a hostile work environment, not talk to him? I am surprised that you would make such a statement. You seemed to be making more intelligent statements lately.

There has been a series of overt threats towards Ty Webb. Comments like, "we know who you are", "you will have trouble here", "they know who you are in the training department", could all be considered hostile. I know most of this is petty posturing but if for some reason he has issues, then it could come back to haunt you. Again, ask Lear70 if his posts have come back to bite him.

 

[SWA/FO]

There has been a series of overt threats towards Ty Webb. Comments like, "we know who you are", "you will have trouble here", "they know who you are in the training department", could all be considered hostile. I know most of this is petty posturing but if for some reason he has issues, then it could come back to haunt you. Again, ask Lear70 if his posts have come back to bite him.

I must have missed these posts... could you please post them. You must be talking about the tranny training department, thats not how we roll.

 

[Cometman]

There has been a series of overt threats towards Ty Webb. Comments like, "we know who you are", "you will have trouble here", "they know who you are in the training department", could all be considered hostile. I know most of this is petty posturing but if for some reason he has issues, then it could come back to haunt you. Again, ask Lear70 if his posts have come back to bite him.

I think Ty brings this on himself. He sure is not trying to avoid it. If this is getting to him then he probably has other issues. Most of the people on this site do not even work for either airline. Some are students in high school or college. Anybody that argues with someone on here and gets upset would feel like a real jerk if they knew who the person was. Maybe he should get a new name and start over.

 

[Lonestar]

Incorrect information. Whoever is telling you this isn't familiar with the RLA and hasnt vetted this idea through an RLA attorney.

Our CBA remains in effect until it is modified through Sec 6 negotiations OR through side letter which must pass member ratification through AAI ALPA.

The process agreement allows for new pay rates to be negotiated by both SWAPA AND ALPA (both must agree) and only AFTER an SLI is agreed upon AND implemented and ONLY if an agreement is reached through negotiations outside of arbitration (5.g)

If it goes to arbitration then when the final award is implemented, everyone falls under the SWAPA CBA (5.g).

There is no mechanism to alter pay rates in any other manner. Just what's written in black and white. No pay freezes, our pay increases in our CBA continue as-scheduled unless agreed to by ALPA and MemRat or by comin under the SWAPA CBA.

If it goes to arbitration,

Lear, please allow me to quote you: "Incorrect information."

While there may be an implementation schedule negotiated between SWAPA and ALPA, that will simply the process to determine when y'all will work under the SWAPA CBA. It's our contract. We negotiate the rates of pay for each aircraft SWAPA pilots will or might operate. There is no trigger to re-open this for y'all to secure any particular pay rate. Current SWAPA pilots will negotiate with SWA to determine the pay rate for the 717. Period.

 

[ASADFW7]

Flightinfo is not a work requirement, advisory at best. This isn't the crew room, this isn't an overnight hotel, this isn't a van ride, this isn't a classroom. However, if moderators have admin privileges on membership data for this site, that may be uncomfortable for some people. It is a caution to all of us to just keep our heads when we post.

 

[Ty Webb]

I think Ty brings this on himself. He sure is not trying to avoid it..

Because I have a different opinion and can articulate it, I "bring it on myself", and that justifies publishing my name and making threats against me in an anonymous and cowardly manner. . . is that what you're saying?

 

[Lonestar]

The TA hardly popped up out of nowhere. Almost all of the agreement was done months before the merger announcement. Only compensation, insurance, and signing bonus remained when the merger was announced.

Ty's analysis is spot-on. This contract never would have even gone to a pilot vote if this merger didn't spring up. The pay rates just weren't up to par, nor were the signing bonus or the insurance premiums. But with the merger announcement, our leverage disappeared. The NMB wasn't going to release a pilot group into self-help with a merger pending. With the loss of leverage, the pilot group had to settle for the gains that could be achieved without the threat of self-help.

You guys really don't know what you're talking about. Ty is about the most easy going guy you'll find. Hopefully most SWA pilots know not to listen to what people say on the Pprune.

Really PCL? Does the following update from your NC look familiar? This was part of your Sept 25, 2010, eWeekly. It was sent out PRIOR TO the announcement of the acquisition. It sure sounds like more than compensation, insurance and bonus. The open items in your negotiation were LITERALLY EVERYTHING that cost money.

The session began with discussions on Section 12 – Insurance and Section 4 – Compensation. Miscellaneous economic issues, including training pay, international override, per diem, and home studies, among others, were resolved. But in response to our compensation proposal made one month ago during our negotiating session in PIE, the company offered only minor increases in later years of the contract. There was no meaningful change in pay rates in the early years of the contract from management’s prior proposal. In response to the NMB’s request, your NC made another compensation proposal later that same day. Our response also included only minor movement from our last proposal in the later years of the contract.

As a result, after two and one-half days of meetings, we were not able to bridge the substantial economic divide that remains. At this point in negotiations, the open issues list has been narrowed to hourly pay rate tables, signing bonus, duty period guarantee, duty rig, minimum monthly guarantee, company contribution to our retirement and primarily the economic elements in the insurance section.

It's funny...a buddy of mine at AT used to send me stuff like this from ALPA because he would get so pissed of at the whole situation. For some reason though, he doesn't send me anything anymore. Oh well.

 

[On Your Six]

To all AT pilots on this board: just remember that the SWA pilots are not the ones giving you your future higher pay rates, management is. The SWA pilots aren't losing a dime here. You don't owe them anything, even if they think they worked hard for their contract, after they piggybacked off of the Delta and United contracts before them. After you get your higher pay, go for arbitration, and get a fair ruling on your SLI by neutrals. Good luck.


OYS

 

[GuppyWN]

Don't worry, Ty and his lawyer will know your name too once FI gets subpoenaed for the lawsuit for a hostile working environment. Don't think it can't happen?, ask your favorite moderator to fill you in......

I have given my FI login to people in the past and I know there have been many posts that weren't made by me. I have never changed my password. As far as I know KP, even YOU could have logged in as me before. I know there have been many AT and SWA peeps who have given their logins to their respective union sites to the other team.

This site is entertainment and should only be viewed as such. Am I wrong?

Gup

 

[waveflyer]

Just stop w/ the bullish/t people.
Again, we can have a successful merger or we can end up like Airways- OUR CHOICE.

Funny how personal responsibility gets a lot tougher when we apply it to OURSELVES and the man in the mirror, instead of to other people.

Just relax all.

 

[Lear70]

Lear, please allow me to quote you: "Incorrect information."

While there may be an implementation schedule negotiated between SWAPA and ALPA, that will simply the process to determine when y'all will work under the SWAPA CBA. It's our contract. We negotiate the rates of pay for each aircraft SWAPA pilots will or might operate. There is no trigger to re-open this for y'all to secure any particular pay rate. Current SWAPA pilots will negotiate with SWA to determine the pay rate for the 717. Period.

This is the incorrect information I was talking about. Not to be picky, but you didn't QUOTE anything at all. In the section I erased yesterday, I quoted extensively from the process agreement which specifically states HOW negotiations for these pay rates will occur - they happen OUTSIDE your CBA as this section modifies that process for this specific issue at this specific time and was agreed upon by all 4 parties.

To summarize, Section 2.d.i says that BOTH SWAPA *AND* ALPA shall comprise an Implementation Work Group to work with the Company to Implement items which shall include:

a. Adjustment of the AAI-ALPA CBA to reflect the compensation and benefits of the SWAPA CBA.
b. Application of the SWAPA CBA to the AirTran pilots.
c. B717 pay and work rules to be applied under the SWAPA CBA to both Southwest and AirTran pilots.
d. International pay and work rules to be applied under the SWAPA CBA to both Southwest and AirTran pilots.

It then goes on further to say in 2.d.ii that SWAPA acts as consultants ONLY for 2.d.i.a. In other words, ALPA negotiates (not SWAPA) for our pay rates until we fall under the SWAPA CBA rules (b, c, and d above).

SWAPA negotiates WHEN b, c, and d happen which, admittedly, there's no time trigger for. So, basically, we continue to work under our existing CBA until ALPA negotiates higher rates and work rules consistent with your CBA and until SWAPA negotiates the same for your own CBA and agrees on a date to bring us over. That date could, indeed, be a while, but if it's an AGREED, NEGOTIATED SLI, I don't see why that would happen.

The point is that our pay isn't "frozen", nor can it go backwards, UNLESS Southwest DECIDED to create a lower B-scale for ALL their pilots too who operate the 717 in the future, which is only applicable when we transition over to the SWAPA CBA, that's the only misconception I'm trying to clear up here. There's no logical reason for that to happen, and the funny thing is 2.d.i.a above to change OUR CBA requires FULL member ratification per our policy manual. Our MEC doesn't have the authority to change pay rates or work rules without full member vote, so whatever is agreed to by ALPA in 2.d.i.a has to be better than what we've got or we simply won't allow it to pass.

Whatever happens once we're represented by SWAPA is a whole different ball of wax but I can't believe SWAPA would deliberately create a b-scale within their own pilot group of pilots who will fly this aircraft in the future. Makes no sense. It really helps people to read the full document, not just executive summaries. Too much important information to miss to rely on summaries.

 

[sfomarc]

That's the 2nd time I've heard that idea alluded to. I don't know where it's coming from, but it's absolutely false.

There's nothing in the Process Agreement, the Purchase Agreement between Southwest and AirTran, our new CBA, OR the Railway Labor Act that allows for those pay rates (or any other part of our contract) to be retracted or rescinded.

Whoever's propagating that rumor needs to quote some hard and fast language in one of those documents or figure out a new rumor of the day. Right now the VAST MAJORITY of AAI pilots I speak to are pretty open about what they may consider "fair". Start spreading false rumors and fear, and you're likely to get those people to dig their feet in and be less willing to find some type of "middle ground".

It's like any other kind of negotiation, you p*ss off one side, and the negotiation pretty much ends, even if it hurts one side or the other. Not a good idea IMHO. Too many people here have spent far too many years under hostile working conditions to respond well to more fear and intimidation.

Just a thought...

That is not what I meant. Ty said that he is happy at AI and did not ask for this acquisition. My question is was he happy at AI prior to the announcement which had AI headed toward a strike. Or is he saying he is happy now after the announcement with SWA and the pay raise you received possibly because of the announcement.

 

[SWA/CA]

OY6 says:

To all AT pilots on this board: just remember that the SWA pilots are not the ones giving you your future higher pay rates, management is. The SWA pilots aren't losing a dime here. You don't owe them anything, even if they think they worked hard for their contract, after they piggybacked off of the Delta and United contracts before them. After you get your higher pay, go for arbitration, and get a fair ruling on your SLI by neutrals. Good luck.

then he said: pass the bong, dude this is some great stuff! (cough cough)

After you get your higher pay, go for arbitration, and get a fair ruling on your SLI by neutrals

Problem is they don't get the SWAPA contract until after the list, if SWA uses "said list" you dip ****. We would be making LESS money if we piggybacked off of bankrupt Delta and bankrupt United (funny you worked for both) contract. Just a thought.

 

[texman]

This is the incorrect information I was talking about. Not to be picky, but you didn't QUOTE anything at all. In the section I erased yesterday, I quoted extensively from the process agreement which specifically states HOW negotiations for these pay rates will occur - they happen OUTSIDE your CBA as this section modifies that process for this specific issue at this specific time and was agreed upon by all 4 parties.

To summarize, Section 2.d.i says that BOTH SWAPA *AND* ALPA shall comprise an Implementation Work Group to work with the Company to Implement items which shall include:

a. Adjustment of the AAI-ALPA CBA to reflect the compensation and benefits of the SWAPA CBA.
b. Application of the SWAPA CBA to the AirTran pilots.
c. B717 pay and work rules to be applied under the SWAPA CBA to both Southwest and AirTran pilots.
d. International pay and work rules to be applied under the SWAPA CBA to both Southwest and AirTran pilots.

It then goes on further to say in 2.d.ii that SWAPA acts as consultants ONLY for 2.d.i.a. In other words, ALPA negotiates (not SWAPA) for our pay rates until we fall under the SWAPA CBA rules (b, c, and d above).

SWAPA negotiates WHEN b, c, and d happen which, admittedly, there's no time trigger for. So, basically, we continue to work under our existing CBA until ALPA negotiates higher rates and work rules consistent with your CBA and until SWAPA negotiates the same for your own CBA and agrees on a date to bring us over. That date could, indeed, be a while, but if it's an AGREED, NEGOTIATED SLI, I don't see why that would happen.

The point is that our pay isn't "frozen", nor can it go backwards, UNLESS Southwest DECIDED to create a lower B-scale for ALL their pilots too who operate the 717 in the future, which is only applicable when we transition over to the SWAPA CBA, that's the only misconception I'm trying to clear up here. There's no logical reason for that to happen, and the funny thing is 2.d.i.a above to change OUR CBA requires FULL member ratification per our policy manual. Our MEC doesn't have the authority to change pay rates or work rules without full member vote, so whatever is agreed to by ALPA in 2.d.i.a has to be better than what we've got or we simply won't allow it to pass.

Whatever happens once we're represented by SWAPA is a whole different ball of wax but I can't believe SWAPA would deliberately create a b-scale within their own pilot group of pilots who will fly this aircraft in the future. Makes no sense. It really helps people to read the full document, not just executive summaries. Too much important information to miss to rely on summaries.

Lear,

Are you saying that no matter how long it takes to get on the SWA cba, Alpa is going to negotiate with SWA on new rates for your side? Isn't your contract up for renewal in 4 1/2 years?

 

[roughneck]

Alpa gets a seat at the table if there is a negotiated SLI. If this goes to arbitration Swapa will be negotiating the 717 payrates, international work rules, coverage dates of the Swapa CBA to the AirTran pilots.

If there is not a negotiated SLI ALPA will remain on the sidelines as they are today. No negotiated agreement, no seat at the table. They will of course be able to address any concerns they may have with the Guadalupe Management team which I hear will be led by Fornaro.

 

[XRMEFLYER]

All of you barracks lawyers who have seen an episode or two of law and order and feel like you are going to solve this issue on this board are killing me.

LET THE MCs DO THEIR JOB AND GET A HOBBY!

 

[ASADFW7]

In about 30 days the negotiations will begin. I can imagine that the reality of what is presented as an opener will not meet the expectations of the other side. Part of what is needed to understand is the public information that is being used to structure these proceedings. The reality of a better solution in a negotiated deal is not hidden from anyone who has read the associated documents. The reality of arbitration is something that has many more unknowns for both sides. As the time line is extended there is a potential economic loss for the group that is compensated below the higher contract value. As of today one group is hiring and the other group isn't. As of today one group is receiving deliveries of new airplanes and the other group isn't. These are both public information.

There is a real encouragement and an environment from SWA to get a negotiated deal. If these are perceived as threats, or written as threats to the Airtran pilot group, that is unfortunate and that is definitely connected to the many unknowns that are presented by this process.

SWA is bringing forward this transaction to grow the size of their business. The employee groups are just trying to figure out how the pieces are going to be placed together.

The aspect of individuals being pissed off and spouting off in the middle of this process are a distraction to the final outcome. It is unfortunate that public identities are brought forward. Trust me I am an ass too at times when it comes to discussing this. I remember my rants, and though they are on the internet forever, it isn't the lasting impression of how I feel about the parties that are involved. What makes SWA work is the people, and the people that are communicating here are not always representing the behavior that is becoming of a professional, myself included.

I think it is in the best interest of many, to keep the personal attacks out of the conversation, and not point out the island of possibilities that may result if the two sides do not come to a negotiated agreement. The actual negotiations will start soon enough. The new world reality will come to both sides. If either sides fights for a 100% solution it will never come, 80% is much easier. If you do not know what that is, it is a reference to the 4 hour work week. I would rather work less and have an easier rest of my career, and drink a few beers along the way, and still want to go to work, than try for the unattainable.

We are not to going to convince every individual that our opinion is correct. Period.

 

[kwick]

To all AT pilots on this board: just remember that the SWA pilots are not the ones giving you your future higher pay rates, management is. The SWA pilots aren't losing a dime here. You don't owe them anything, even if they think they worked hard for their contract, after they piggybacked off of the Delta and United contracts before them. After you get your higher pay, go for arbitration, and get a fair ruling on your SLI by neutrals. Good luck.


OYS

Don't confuse these guys
With reality!