SWA/Airtran Process Agreement??

[GlobeIII]

Some of you have seen the light and realize that this will be a great thing for everyone, others, not so much...........

Not this Southwest Pilot!!!! Other Southwest pilots feel free to chime in as I have never once heard this sentiment on the line.

 

[GlobeIII]

Not sure what you mean by that. The process agreement states that there will be binding arbitration if a negotiated agreement isn't reached. How is that "the **** hits the fan?"

I am glad Air Tran has the only "official" union member assigned to comment on Flight Info regarding the Acquistion. Haven't seen many SWAPA folks appointed as such..wonder why?

 

[texman]

I have seen the light. This deal has the potential to create growth. Now, with that being said we southwest pilots feel we have earned a right to be at swa. You can't blame us for feeling that way. GK will take care of his own first then yall. We swa pilots do respect what you have built since 1994. But that should go. Both ways. If Yall feel that GK can't crush this deal, think agian. I been trying to tell everyone on this board since day one, this is GK's game. Not some arbitrators. Yes there are laws that need to be respected, but dont think for one moment that Alpa is going to tie GK's hands. Our shareholders do respect our culture, this is what has made them money. The light AT needs to see, is Yall had no money to grow. Swa will help you. Swapa will make your life better. We Swapa pilots have nothing to gain from this, unless we grow and get a good deal out of the MISL. AT will get a great QOL , working environment, money and job security. You can't have every thing. Good luck to us all.

 

[shootr]

Not sure what you mean by that. The process agreement states that there will be binding arbitration if a negotiated agreement isn't reached. How is that "the **** hits the fan?"

The arbitrator panel doesn't just issue a list, they also issue an implementation schedule. It's laid out clearly in the process agreement.

Disclaimer...I DO want this deal to happen. I think it will be a good thing for all of us and SWA. I have friends at AT that I think are good guys and I'll be pleased to have them here.

With that said, if PCL is really a union guy and he really thinks it's all roses for you guys no matter what, your membership might need to question ALPA a little and figure out what their motivations really are. If he has that wide of a view of what could happen he doesn't understand SWA, Gary, our culture, and ALL of the agreements signed in the last few months. The process agreement gives Gary a quick timeline to see how the SLI goes. It allows him to make decisions quickly rather than waiting for a lengthy process.

I don't fear arbitration. I do think it would be harmful to the combined group and I believe Gary agrees. Our CEO wants a negotiated solution. SWAPA wants a negotiated solution. If AT ALPA does not want a negotiated solution you can kind of see how that looks to SWA. NOBODY forces our management to make business decisions. Esp. not a union. Just look at our history.

Here's a thought. Gary wants relief from our scope for the duration of the transition. We've told him that we want him to PAY us to get us to go along. MAYBE he's thinking we'll back off on the need for cash/equity if we see that he's actually backing our group up in this whole process. (I don't know this as truth, just as a possibility.) He couldn't just come out and say it but he could do it in a nuanced way. Maybe it's not obvious, yet, to some.

Again, I really do think this could be a good thing and I hope it happens in a good way. I won't be upset if something else happens, though. Many in SWAPA agree with this sentiment.

shootr

 

[On Your Six]

Arbitrator comes up with a list. Implementation date is made by SWA/SWAPA.

I think, we will come to an agreement without an Arbitrator... in my opinion.

Yeah, riiiiight. If I were an Airtran pilot, I wouldn't accept anything from SWAPA. Just let a neutral do it, with no strings attached. That will ENSURE fairness, and that is what the SWAPA guys are afraid of.


OYS

 

[On Your Six]

Disclaimer...I DO want this deal to happen. I think it will be a good thing for all of us and SWA. I have friends at AT that I think are good guys and I'll be pleased to have them here.

With that said, if PCL is really a union guy and he really thinks it's all roses for you guys no matter what, your membership might need to question ALPA a little and figure out what their motivations really are. If he has that wide of a view of what could happen he doesn't understand SWA, Gary, our culture, and ALL of the agreements signed in the last few months. The process agreement gives Gary a quick timeline to see how the SLI goes. It allows him to make decisions quickly rather than waiting for a lengthy process.

I don't fear arbitration. I do think it would be harmful to the combined group and I believe Gary agrees. Our CEO wants a negotiated solution. SWAPA wants a negotiated solution. If AT ALPA does not want a negotiated solution you can kind of see how that looks to SWA. NOBODY forces our management to make business decisions. Esp. not a union. Just look at our history.

Here's a thought. Gary wants relief from our scope for the duration of the transition. We've told him that we want him to PAY us to get us to go along. MAYBE he's thinking we'll back off on the need for cash/equity if we see that he's actually backing our group up in this whole process. (I don't know this as truth, just as a possibility.) He couldn't just come out and say it but he could do it in a nuanced way. Maybe it's not obvious, yet, to some.

Again, I really do think this could be a good thing and I hope it happens in a good way. I won't be upset if something else happens, though. Many in SWAPA agree with this sentiment.

shootr

Arbitration is HARMFUL to the group? Why? Because one side didn't GET what they thought they deserved? Let someone neutral decide that. And, both sides can then blame ONE PERSON, the ARBITRATOR, and not themselves or each side. It is easier to blame a person on the outside rather than the guy you are flying with. And, I bet GK just doesn't care. If he favors one side over the other, the other side will not fully embrace the SWA culture then, which would be worse. Wall Street wants this merger done, and GK knows that.


OYS

 

[Crash Pad]

Ok can we stop with the "GK will...." GK most likely can't understand how the list isn't already done. I picture this as a quote "I got a 1.4 billion deal in the works, we are fighting for DOJ approval, integrating routes and fleet types, reworking ticketing, I got a meeting with the frequent flyer guy at 2:00, catering, payroll, the list goes on and on. So what are the pilots fighting about? TEN NUMBERS ON AN 8000 NUMBER LIST!!!! You have got to be ********************ting me."

We don't know what GK thinks... So stop posting his thoughts.

Here is my next question for both sides. WHAT THE ******************** ARE WE FIGHTING ABOUT? I've seen the SWA list. I've run the numbers ten ways to tuesday. DOH, rope off the SWA top 800 then: 4 to1 or 7 to 2 etc... Rope off the top 400 then: 3 to 1, 7 to 2, 4 to 1.

IT ALL ENDS THE SAME YOU ********************ING IDIOTS!!!!

You end up integrating roughly 1000 AirTran pilots. The bottom 700 or so of our list go to the bottom of the list. Just numbers not union spin.

Wait it gets better... In fiveish years you have 1000 retirements!!!

Let me make sure I get this right. You get all our planes but only have to integrate 1000ish of our pilots. We get more money and more days off.

So I'll ask again. Assuming no staple which I think we all know is out. What the ******************** are we talking about?

 

[On Your Six]

Ok can we stop with the "GK will...." GK most likely can't understand how the list isn't already done. I picture this as a quote "I got a 1.4 billion deal in the works, we are fighting for DOJ approval, integrating routes and fleet types, reworking ticketing, I got a meeting with the frequent flyer guy at 2:00, catering, payroll, the list goes on and on. So what are the pilots fighting about? TEN NUMBERS ON AN 8000 NUMBER LIST!!!! You have got to be ********************ting me."

We don't know what GK thinks... So stop posting his thoughts.

Here is my next question for both sides. WHAT THE ******************** ARE WE FIGHTING ABOUT? I've seen the SWA list. I've run the numbers ten ways to tuesday. DOH, rope off the SWA top 800 then: 4 to1 or 7 to 2 etc... Rope off the top 400 then: 3 to 1, 7 to 2, 4 to 1.

IT ALL ENDS THE SAME YOU ********************ING IDIOTS!!!!

You end up integrating roughly 1000 AirTran pilots. The bottom 700 or so of our list go to the bottom of the list. Just numbers not union spin.

Wait it gets better... In fiveish years you have 1000 retirements!!!

Let me make sure I get this right. You get all our planes but only have to integrate 1000ish of our pilots. We get more money and more days off.

So I'll ask again. Assuming no staple which I think we all know is out. What the ******************** are we talking about?

Um, no. An arbitrator will put BOTH SWA and AT guys at the bottom of your list. That is why SWAPA doesn't want an arbitrator, and this is why AT guys want one. It also doesn't matter how many retirements you MAY have in 5 years (assuming SWA Captains don't go for age 70 next). NWA had 5 times the number of future retirments compared to the Delta guys, and the arbitrators still went fairly relative on the SLI. Also, you SWA pilots aren't giving up a dime to the AT guys, your management will be. AT is bringing younger planes to the table, whereas SWA will be retiring 735s and 733s first. Both of you have 738s on order. Even if SWA was getting more 738s in an order, they would be REPLACING old 735s and 733s leaving the fleet first. Not much growth for awhile until all of the older planes are gone. So, no argument there. Get an arbitrator or a group of them, and start from there, unless you are afraid of something....


OYS

 

[GuppyWN]

Crashpad,

I won't comment on HOW it should go down but I agree with your sentiment. I guess the fighting is 5900 WN pilots trying to protect 40 years of history/seniority and 1650 AAI pilots trying to get all they can.

Gup

 

[GuppyWN]

This is not your fight OYS and you don't know what both sides know. The Process Agreement clearly spells out that a negotiated settlement is the way to go.

Gup

 

[shootr]

Panel of 3 arbitrators, not one. Harmful because the solution was forced and the parties could not come to agreement. Imagine you're buying a car. You're stuck on a number and the dealer is holding on to a number. An arbitration is forced. Very possible that one side ends up PO'd at the end if the result is not percieved as fair. A negotiation would have been a better end result for at least one of the parties.

Again, I don't fear arbitration. But it's a risk. I don't like taking risks with my career at SWA. It may very well be that AT ends up with a better deal through negotiations, esp. with SWA involved, rather than with arbitration. A bone, if you will, so SWAPA does not have to take the risk of going to arbitration.

When our high-powered attorneys showed up at SWAPA hdq, they were all about some type of relative ratio. Then they got a hold of our contracts, got an understanding of both groups work rules, and they completely changed their collective minds. They are itching to go to arbitration but SWAPA and SWA want a negotiated deal.

6000 pilots versus 1700 pilots. Which group has the potential to have the highest number of PO'd pilots, affecting SWA's bottom line. Gary is ruthless and ALL business. I don't believe Gary will support me over you because he loves me or has loyalty toward me. It's a bottom-line decision. 3000 PO'd SWA FO's versus 850 PO'd AT CA's makes for an easy decision. But I don't believe it'll go that way. SWA will be involved and a negotiated solution will have incentives making is more palatable to one side or the other.

Just an informed opinion,
shootr

 

[On Your Six]

Crashpad,

I won't comment on HOW it should go down but I agree with your sentiment. I guess the fighting is 5900 WN pilots trying to protect 40 years of history/seniority and 1650 AAI pilots trying to get all they can.

Gup

Classic. Why wouldn't an arbitrator see exactly what you said and give you exactly what you want? Unless.........what you are saying is a bunch of bull.... What about what the AT pilots have? What about the assets they bring to the table? They are bringing planes, slots, hubs, and things that will make SWA stronger. You guys LUV to forget that. An arbitrator would see right through your BS.


OYS

 

[GuppyWN]

Classic. Why wouldn't an arbitrator see exactly what you said and give you exactly what you want? Unless.........what you are saying is a bunch of bull.... What about what the AT pilots have? What about the assets they bring to the table? They are bringing planes, slots, hubs, and things that will make SWA stronger. You guys LUV to forget that. An arbitrator would see right through your BS.


OYS

Dude,

You seen to gloss over the fact that we already have the contract, the schedule, the fleet, the network, the pay, the growth plans etc.

Airtran absolutely brings other opportunities and will be rewarded for that no matter where they end up on the combined list.

You sure do like to fan the flames.

Gup

 

[On Your Six]

Panel of 3 arbitrators, not one. Harmful because the solution was forced and the parties could not come to agreement. Imagine you're buying a car. You're stuck on a number and the dealer is holding on to a number. An arbitration is forced. Very possible that one side ends up PO'd at the end if the result is not percieved as fair. A negotiation would have been a better end result for at least one of the parties.

Again, I don't fear arbitration. But's it's a risk. I don't like taking risks with my career at SWA. It may very well be that AT ends up with a better deal through negotiations, esp. with SWA involved, rather than with arbitration. A bone, if you will, so SWAPA does not have to take the risk of going to arbitration.

When our high-powered attorneys showed up at SWAPA hdq, they were all about some type of relative ratio. Then they got a hold of our contracts, got an understanding of both groups work rules, and they completely changed their collective minds. They are itching to go to arbitration but SWAPA and SWA want a negotiated deal.

6000 pilots versus 1700 pilots. Which group has the potential to have the highest number of PO'd pilots, affecting SWA's bottom line. Gary is ruthless and ALL business. I don't believe Gary will support me over you because he loves me or has loyalty toward me. It's a bottom-line decision. 3000 PO'd SWA FO's versus 850 PO'd AT CA's makes for an easy decision. But I don't believe it'll go that way. SWA will be involved and a negotiated solution will have incentives making is more palatable to one side or the other.

Just an informed opinion,
shootr

That is what happened with the DL/NWA merger, a panel of 3 arbitrators. It isn't harmful when both sides have strong feelings about seniority and someone or a group can figure it out fairly. Has any group been able to amicably come up with a solution yet during any SLI merger? Of course not. Will one group be upset with the result? Probably, but that is something that happens during all mergers. When you get your joint contract done first, both sides will get a pay increase, and that helps soften the blow of the SLI. But just remember, SWAPA did not decide on this merger. That may have been the case with F9, but not AT. Wall St lead this one. And, if AT can get a better deal with negotiations rather then arbitration, then great, but I doubt that. A group of arbitrators would be more likely to pepper in more Capt positions around the top end (maybe not the top) of the list and have SWA guys mixed in at the bottom, which is probably more fair, especailly to the AT guys. If there is a large group of AT guys only at the bottom, I don't see them voting for that at all. And, there may be a large amount of SWA pilots mad, because that group is bigger. If they don't think there will be AT pilots put in front of them, they will likely be upset.

I fly with ex-NWA guys every trip out of DTW, and I talk to them all the time about their SLI and their feelings on the merger. Some are ticked a bit, but most have gotten over it. They like the new airline now, have more choices, have better pay, and have moved on mentally away from the SLI. You will too eventually.


OYS

 

[On Your Six]

Dude,

You seen to gloss over the fact that we already have the contract, the schedule, the fleet, the network, the pay, the growth plans etc.

Airtran absolutely brings other opportunities and will be rewarded for that no matter where they end up on the combined list.

You sure do like to fan the flames.

Gup

I am not trying to fan the flames. I just can't understand your complete cockiness. Really, if you don't want your SLI to be fair, just say it. You imply it everytime you type. I have friends at both SWA and AT, and I can see that your merger will be good for both. You see it as a hinderance to your own career. It is not up to you. GK is doing this for Wall St and for your airline to grow in ways it currently cannot. And this SLI is not up to you, and you are not losing a dime for being a part of this. Just let the process work and be happy you are at a solid airline. Just like you have your wants and needs, so do AT pilots. They don't have to thank you for this opportunity, it was GK and Wall St who wanted this to happen. Nobody has to bow to you or your group. No flames intended.


OYS

 

[On Your Six]

I have seen the light. This deal has the potential to create growth. Now, with that being said we southwest pilots feel we have earned a right to be at swa. You can't blame us for feeling that way. GK will take care of his own first then yall. We swa pilots do respect what you have built since 1994. But that should go. Both ways. If Yall feel that GK can't crush this deal, think agian. I been trying to tell everyone on this board since day one, this is GK's game. Not some arbitrators. Yes there are laws that need to be respected, but dont think for one moment that Alpa is going to tie GK's hands. Our shareholders do respect our culture, this is what has made them money. The light AT needs to see, is Yall had no money to grow. Swa will help you. Swapa will make your life better. We Swapa pilots have nothing to gain from this, unless we grow and get a good deal out of the MISL. AT will get a great QOL , working environment, money and job security. You can't have every thing. Good luck to us all.

Arbitrators won't see it that way. You will get a joint contract first (all successful recent mergers have done that, and USAir did not), and then your pay will be equal at that point. From there a SLI will be formed, by the arbitrators, based on what each brings to the table, the history of the airline, etc. Fairness will form the SLI thanks to the group of neutrals. Obviously the arbitrators will see everything you are saying, and reward you because of your correctness, right? Being scared of fairness is sad, texman.


OYS

 

[GuppyWN]

I am not trying to fan the flames. I just can't understand your complete cockiness. Really, if you don't want your SLI to be fair, just say it. You imply it everytime you type. I have friends at both SWA and AT, and I can see that your merger will be good for both. You see it as a hinderance to your own career. It is not up to you. GK is doing this for Wall St and for your airline to grow in ways it currently cannot. And this SLI is not up to you, and you are not losing a dime for being a part of this. Just let the process work and be happy you are at a solid airline. Just like you have your wants and needs, so do AT pilots. They don't have to thank you for this opportunity, it was GK and Wall St who wanted this to happen. Nobody has to bow to you or your group. No flames intended.


OYS

Fair enough and I appreciate the rationale instead of just WN sucks. I'm already a captain so this deal isn't going to hurt me or help me "that" much but it will most certainly affect the guy sitting beside me. Therefore I fight for him more than I fight for me because if he is happy with the deal, how can I not be?

If you can define FAIR for me then I'll be happy to tell you if it is fairness I am after. I personally think that equal or better EVERYTHING with a stronger company is fair. Now we just have to figure out HOW fair!

What you hear from WN pilots is pride, not cockiness. You hear the same thing in the AT guys postings. Trust me, we'll get past this for the better and be buying each other brews and yucking it up together sooner rather than later. I'm actually looking forward to it and to the new experiences that lie ahead.

Gup

 

[On Your Six]

Fair enough and I appreciate the rationale instead of just WN sucks. I'm already a captain so this deal isn't going to hurt me or help me "that" much but it will most certainly affect the guy sitting beside me. Therefore I fight for him more than I fight for me because if he is happy with the deal, how can I not be?

If you can define FAIR for me then I'll be happy to tell you if it is fairness I am after. I personally think that equal or better EVERYTHING with a stronger company is fair. Now we just have to figure out HOW fair!

What you hear from WN pilots is pride, not cockiness. You hear the same thing in the AT guys postings. Trust me, we'll get past this for the better and be buying each other brews and yucking it up together sooner rather than later. I'm actually looking forward to it and to the new experiences that lie ahead.

Gup

I never said SWA sucks. But, the overriding attitude sometimes on this board from supposed SWA pilots can get the best of anyone. Careers don't always turn out the way you think it will (I've already had one long furlough), and pilot pride has nothing to do with mergers, rather from Hedge Fund management pride. They are leading the way here. It's not up to you to decide what is fair or not, since you have something riding on it too. The only people who can honestly decide what is fair or is not is a group that has nothing to benefit from any ruling. That is the truth, and you probably know that. Good luck to you guys.

OYS

 

[funnyman12]

If an SLI was awarded that increased everey SW pilots position on the list by a few percent and decreased every Airtran pilots position by a few percent, how would that hurt one SW pilot? This would be the result of a ratio....eg....im at 22% from the bottom at AT....may be I would slide to 18%. At the same time a SW pilot at the same position would gain a few. My point is...how could that SLI award be negative to a SW pilot? It would improve life for every SW pilot while providing AT guys with a similar quality of life as they have now.

 

[shootr]

while providing AT guys with a similar quality of life as they have now.

You have to know this is not even close to the truth. Read our contract.