SWA/Airtran Process Agreement??

[GoodTimes]

OYS,

Your so far behind the curve regarding the details of this acquisition that your posts are laughable.

 

[Lonestar]

Lear-

It then goes on further to say in 2.d.ii that SWAPA acts as consultants ONLY for 2.d.i.a. In other words, ALPA negotiates (not SWAPA) for our pay rates until we fall under the SWAPA CBA rules (b, c, and d above).

I think that you are still missing the GIANT "IF" statements that are written into this document:

(d) In the event that an integrated seniority list is reached through negotiations, the
following shall apply:
(i) SWAPA and ALPA will each designate members of their respective
Negotiating Committees to comprise an Implementation Work Group,
whose sole responsibilities will be to negotiate an implementation
schedule with the Companies to include:
a. Adjustment of the AirTran-ALPA CBA to reflect the
compensation and benefits of the SWAPA CBA;
b. Application of the SWAPA CBA to AirTran pilots;
c. B717 rates of pay and work rules to be applied under the SWAPA
CBA to Southwest and AirTran pilots; and
d. International pay and work rules to be applied under the SWAPA​

CBA to Southwest and AirTran pilots.

and:

(e) In the event either ALPA or SWAPA fails to ratify the negotiated integrated seniority
list, the list and the implementation schedule and letters of agreement delineated in
Section II (d) shall be null and void and without any force and effect and shall not be
admissible for any purpose in any proceeding including but not limited to any arbitration
under this Agreement.​

Sure... IF our NC and your MC come to an agreement, AND that agreement is ratified by BOTH pilot groups, then ALPA will get a chance to talk with WN about implementation.

IF any one of those items fail to happen, THEN this entire section
(Section II: Negotiation of the Integrated List) is "Null and Void" and none of it gets to take place.

Please remember that IF this can't be negotiated and rattified, ALPA cannot force WN to recognize an arbitrated list. They do have the ability run seperate ops for a VERY long time. An arbitration panel cannot force WN to combine...period.

 

[GuppyWN]

I sure look forward to the day we try kick the competitions ass instead of each others!

Gup

 

[Lear70]

Lear,

Are you saying that no matter how long it takes to get on the SWA cba, Alpa is going to negotiate with SWA on new rates for your side? Isn't your contract up for renewal in 4 1/2 years?

No, I'm saying that until a SLI is reached (one way or another) and implemented (one way or another), we remain on our CBA. 4 1/2 years is unlikely in the EXTREME, even with an arbitrated scenario, and I'm certain we'll be able to figure out something long before then, but I can live with the pay rates and work rules in our T.A. - they jump quite healthily in 2013 and 2014 and actually start approaching within a couple dollars of your rates by then.

However, both sides are reasonable people with a common goal in mind of long-term, stable employment and a healthy, happy company and I am confident we'll reach an agreement or get so close that only small things to go arbitration and the award is still acceptable.

I think that you are still missing the GIANT "IF" statements that are written into this document:

No, I just chose not to address them because just as the alternative is unappealing to us, it's unappealing to you, too, but for reasons no one seems to really have considered yet and I REALLY hope never becomes necessary.

Sure... IF our NC and your MC come to an agreement, AND that agreement is ratified by BOTH pilot groups, then ALPA will get a chance to talk with WN about implementation.

IF any one of those items fail to happen, THEN this entire section
(Section II: Negotiation of the Integrated List) is "Null and Void" and none of it gets to take place.

Not exactly.

Yes, Sec 2 becomes null and void, HOWEVER, there is a mechanism in place to cover that event after arbitration when one side doesn't want to implement the SLI award. RAH and F9 are going through it right now. It's ugly. It's messy. It makes everyone REALLY, REALLY angry and I really, truly, hope this doesn't happen, too much is at stake with the culture to LET it.

I believe if both sides negotiate in good faith, which I believe they will, we will come to an agreement. There's probably going to be a lot of rumors over the next several months, a lot of propaganda, and tempers will be short, but both companies have good people and we will all make it through this.

I sure look forward to the day we try kick the competitions ass instead of each others!

Amen.

 

[Lear70]

That is not what I meant. Ty said that he is happy at AI and did not ask for this acquisition. My question is was he happy at AI prior to the announcement which had AI headed toward a strike. Or is he saying he is happy now after the announcement with SWA and the pay raise you received possibly because of the announcement.

Oh, I gotcha. Thanks for the clarification. :beer:

 

[On Your Six]

OY6 says: then he said: pass the bong, dude this is some great stuff! (cough cough)



Problem is they don't get the SWAPA contract until after the list, if SWA uses "said list" you dip ****. We would be making LESS money if we piggybacked off of bankrupt Delta and bankrupt United (funny you worked for both) contract. Just a thought.

Well done! Contract after SLI, sounds exactly like USAir. And, your rates were piggybacked off of DAL pre-BK, and UAL before that. If they were done post BK, yours would be lower. Darn you are cocky. I still advocate the AT guys to go for arbitration first, especially with guys like you out there on the SWA side. Fair is best.


OYS

 

[Lonestar]

Not exactly.

Yes, Sec 2 becomes null and void, HOWEVER, there is a mechanism in place to cover that event after arbitration when one side doesn't want to implement the SLI award.

Still missing the point:

Notice how I said WN and not SWAPA? We will have a list...come H**L or HIGH WATER (whether it be negotiated or arbitrated. That's a given. However, that list does not ever have to be implemented if its arbitrated (and) WN decides to go the "Road less Traveled".

I don't think that was unintentional.

 

[Lear70]

Southwest management signed 6.a. as well. No, I'm not missing your point. I simply believe this being a 4-way signed document including SWA management and par 6.a precludes what you are thinking but who knows.

Time will tell and I still have faith in all of us to find a middle ground and choose a solution we may not "like" but can live with versus the unknown of arbitration.

 

[S3sundowner]

Wow. Been off here for a few days and took me an hour to catch up! Good entertainment boys. My money's on a negotiated settlement. Let's get this party started.

 

[Lonestar]

Yep, you're right... 6(a) was signed off on by all parties involved. I just wonder how much water that paragraph will hold if there are any "debilitating circumstances" pop up.

I'm not trying to be a jerk (although I'm sure that I am coming off as one to some), but I just don't think that everyone understands the importance of this document: GK does not want this to go to arbitration. He wants a negotiated list (one big happy family). If it does go to arbitration, then all bets are off.

 

[shagadelic]

GK does not want this to go to arbitration. He wants a negotiated list (one big happy family). If it does go to arbitration, then all bets are off.

That is exactly right.

 

[On Your Six]

Wow. Been off here for a few days and took me an hour to catch up! Good entertainment boys. My money's on a negotiated settlement. Let's get this party started.

Of course you are hoping for the AT pilots to sign off on your own "generosity", even though the money is coming from management. You guys aren't losing a dime. If all other recent mergers are precedent, I see arbitration in your future, because both sides don't see the same outcome. They just don't. GK wants this merger done, and he isn't asking for SWAPA's approval here. Sure, he wants peace, but that won't come easy, in any merger. Fair is best.


OYS

 

[shagadelic]

I remember the new-hire breakfast with Herb and Colleen. They were adamant that we would never buy another company because of the culture problems and perceived ungratefulness of some of the Morris pilots, especially the ones who sued. It's not Herb and Colleen anymore, but the culture is still very much front and center on everyone's mind. That is why a negotiated settlement is so important for them.

 

[humveedriver]

Still missing the point:

Notice how I said WN and not SWAPA? We will have a list...come H**L or HIGH WATER (whether it be negotiated or arbitrated. That's a given. However, that list does not ever have to be implemented if its arbitrated (and) WN decides to go the "Road less Traveled".

I don't think that was unintentional.

If it goes to arbitration, the following section applies:

" 6(g) The Final Award shall be final and binding on the Parties to this agreement, on their succesor and assigns, and on the pilots employed by the companies and their affiliates. The Final Award shall include the date on which the Integrated Master Seniority List will become effective, which will be a either a date agreed upon by the parties, or if they do not agree, a date determined by the Panel. The date determined by the Panel shall not be earlier than the later of:

i. The date a single collective bargaining represntative is recognized as the sole bargaining agent for the combined craft and class, in accodance with the RLA; and

ii. The issuance date of an FAA Single Operating Certificate, provided that Southwest and AirTran make reasonable, good faith, and expiditious efforts to secure the Single Operating Certificate."

I'm pulling for a negotiated ISL. I think that is the first step in preserving the SWA culture and bringing the AT pilots into the fold. But I'm not following your point Lonestar. I think there is language that provides an end game.

 

[Hose A. Jiminez]

Of course you are hoping for the AT pilots to sign off on your own "generosity", even though the money is coming from management. You guys aren't losing a dime. If all other recent mergers are precedent, I see arbitration in your future, because both sides don't see the same outcome. They just don't. GK wants this merger done, and he isn't asking for SWAPA's approval here. Sure, he wants peace, but that won't come easy, in any merger. Fair is best.


OYS

The General is silent but there is another equally irrelevant DAL guy espousing the same views. Riiiiiight...
STREAKER!!!!

 

[Cometman]

Because I have a different opinion and can articulate it, I "bring it on myself", and that justifies publishing my name and making threats against me in an anonymous and cowardly manner. . . is that what you're saying?

Grow up. This is all a game. An remember, the solution to this problem is the problem. If you cannot take it then get out of the game and quit crying. If it really bothers you try getting a new name and start over. This will be old news next year and nobody will remember it. Or just read and do not post. That will work also.

 

[scoreboardII]

in an anonymous and cowardly manner

Oh, the irony.

 

[SWA/CA]

I see arbitration in your future

I don't. :cartman: Thanks for playing..... Next Delta guy you're up! :crying:

 

[Lear70]

Yep, you're right... 6(a) was signed off on by all parties involved. I just wonder how much water that paragraph will hold if there are any "debilitating circumstances" pop up.

Good question.

I'm not trying to be a jerk (although I'm sure that I am coming off as one to some),

Not at all (and I hope I don't, either but probably do even though it's not intended). We're all a little passionate about the subject... probably something about having a little at stake or something like that.

but I just don't think that everyone understands the importance of this document: GK does not want this to go to arbitration. He wants a negotiated list (one big happy family). If it does go to arbitration, then all bets are off.

I'm sure he does, as do all of us. Infinitely better to come up with something we can all live with, no doubt about that. :beer:

 

[Ty Webb]

Oh, the irony.

Yes, those who wish to name names while remaining anonymous themselves are cowards.

 

[SWA/CA]

We're all a little passionate about the subject...

yeah. you can say that again!

We're all a little passionate about the subject...

 

[SWA/CA]

Yes, those who wish to name names while remaining anonymous themselves are cowards.

I think remaining anonymous is the way to go. Much like blending in, fade to black...changing color etc.. :erm:

 

[Ty Webb]

Grow up. This is all a game.

That's great. Thanks for playing. Thanks, too for the ip addresses you guys left while visiting my profile and websites. . . Especially you guys in Spring, Temple, San Antonio, Murfreesboro, Dothan, and the layover crews in the Birmingham, Houston, and Jacksonville, hotels. Dallas, and, of course, San Antonio . . . . who could forget San Antonio? :laugh:

 

[SWA/CA]

Looks like old Ty is back! Welcome back!

 

[redflyer65]

And, your rates were piggybacked off of DAL pre-BK, and UAL before that.

OYS

You've got to be kidding me.

How about the truth? A great management team at Southwest that can sustain good pay and QOL for all employees (over 39 consecutive years) or...

DL/NW that has outsource as much as possible and ran their companies into the ground requiring bankruptcy, because they had a horrible business model built on debt. Pass the bong OYS the sky in your world must not be blue.

 

[On Your Six]

I don't. :cartman: Thanks for playing..... Next Delta guy you're up! :crying:

So, you're afraid of arbitrators putting Ty ahead of you on the list? Got it. Allowing people who have no stake in the matter to decide what is actually fair is not acceptable to you. Well, ok then. AT guys, take notice.


OYS

 

[On Your Six]

You've got to be kidding me.

How about the truth? A great management team at Southwest that can sustain good pay and QOL for all employees (over 39 consecutive years) or...

DL/NW that has outsource as much as possible and ran their companies into the ground requiring bankruptcy, because they had a horrible business model built on debt. Pass the bong OYS the sky in your world must not be blue.

You had the same management (Herb) up until GK, and he paid you a lot worse than UAL/DAL rates before the DAL/UAL BKs. That's why guys left the left seat at SWA to go to UAL, some were in my class there. The higher rates at UAL and DAL undoubtably helped your cause. Your current profitability has kept it there, but we helped you place it there. You sound like you have it wrong. And, thanks to you keeping it there, we will get back there too, and then your junior guys thanks to the AT merger will again flock this way. After your SLI, even you may consider it.


OYS

 

[redflyer65]

Nice try. 39 years of profitability, versus well...not.

Good luck raising your rates. I hope you can. It will be tough when Anderson comes asking for concessions because of high oil and attempting to operate NINE fleet types.

 

[GoodTimes]

So let me see if I can get this straight. OYS is going on 12, maybe 13 years in this business. He's played for not one, but two bankrupt carriers where I'm guessing he's hovered around the bottom 20% the entire time. No easy feat, OYS. Well played. The old adage 'consider the source' comes to mind when your wisdom hits these boards.

 

[redflyer65]

Lear,

I'm confused about you saying SWAPA and ALPA will come up with the new 717 rate. Did I miss something?