SWA/Airtran Process Agreement??

[Uppercrust]

Sounds like Gary Kelly may just keep the Airtran abortion seperate if the senior Airtran pilots start making a fuss and causing a lot of problems. I would if I were him. Take the gates in ATL, don't renew the 717 leases and sell the 737's along with Ty "I'm angry" Webb to the new start up LCC of the Mid East "Air Libya".:laugh::laugh:

 

[Ty Webb]

Sounds like Gary Kelly may just keep the Airtran abortion seperate if the senior Airtran pilots start making a fuss and causing a lot of problems. I would if I were him. Take the gates in ATL, don't renew the 717 leases and sell the 737's along with Ty "I'm angry" Webb to the new start up LCC of the Mid East "Air Libya".:laugh::laugh:

What's there to be angry about? I'm not the one with a Brokeback Mountain avatar.

 

[madjack]

Ty,

FYI: The Bond-McCaskill law does not appear to establish any substantive right to employment. The Bond-McCaskill amendment does not require a carrier to hire the employees of another carrier, nor does it require a merger of the carriers in the event of a transaction.... Further, if SWA acquired another carrier and chose (with the Association's consent) to operate the carrier separately, it could do so without having to effect a merger. It could acquire a carrier, and its employees, in a stock transaction (maintaining the separate corporate entity and management) and operate as a separate carrier (again, with the Association's consent) also without triggering these obligations.

 

[RIDETHELIGHTING]

You guys need to get over it. This merger is happening. Holy ******************** u guys sound like u all went full retard, and u never go full retard.

 

[shootr]

The PURCHASE is happening. Anything beyond that is still up in the air. If you don't believe that then you don't fully understand the situation. I did not fully understand as late as yesterday. I do now. SL6, SL8, and the process agreement are all leading to a head. All must be fully understood and compared side-by-side to comprehend what is happening. I'm fully behind my NC and where they're going with all of this.

shootr

 

[GuppyWN]

Ty,

This is no dream world, but it is Gary Kelly's show, not yours and not mine.

If he gets a bad list or bad outcome, he has options. And that's not meant as a threat, but he will have option B, C, and maybe even D. This is how the Dallas GO works everyday. They have plan after plan for possible scenerios. He won't let this ruin Southwest, plain and simple.

I'm hoping for a negoitated list, but I'm absolutely not afraid of arbitration. The list of gains on the AAI side of the list are off the map.

This view won't be popular with our Airtran bro's but this is absolutely spot on. That's why it's extraordinarily important for the Airtran MEC to be realistic - as I'm sure they will be. Without a negotiated list the Trannies need a lifeline.

I'm sure the levity of that won't go unnoticed and I look forward to an agreement to vote on by fall - or sooner.

Gup

 

[Kharma Police]

This view won't be popular with our Airtran bro's but this is absolutely spot on. That's why it's extraordinarily important for the Airtran MEC to be realistic - as I'm sure they will be. Without a negotiated list the Trannies need a lifeline.

I'm sure the levity of that won't go unnoticed and I look forward to an agreement to vote on by fall - or sooner.

Gup

Wow, still preaching September 28th. The same broken record albeit tweaked a little, "do this or else", "you better behave and take what we give you", "you better watch out or we will tell Gary", "Gary has plans A-Z and 1 up to infinity if you guys don't play ball". Don't you guys get tired of saying the same thing? Some of you have seen the light and realize that this will be a great thing for everyone, others, not so much...........

 

[madjack]

KP,

No, we just trust our management to act in our best interest. When you are integrated, you will appreciate that fact.

 

[Kharma Police]

KP,

No, we just trust our management to act in our best interest. When you are integrated, you will appreciate that fact.

Gary Kelly will act in the best interests of Southwest Airlines, even if SWAPA agrees or disagrees.

 

[Ty Webb]

In a related story, the next meeting of the "Flat Earth Society" will be held on May 5th, at the Grapevine, TX Hooter's.

 

[scoreboardII]

What time? Because my sundial stops working after dark.

 

[Uppercrust]

What's there to be angry about? I'm not the one with a Brokeback Mountain avatar.

Come on Ty you've climbed up that mountain before!:laugh:

 

[GuppyWN]

Wow, still preaching September 28th. The same broken record albeit tweaked a little, "do this or else", "you better behave and take what we give you", "you better watch out or we will tell Gary", "Gary has plans A-Z and 1 up to infinity if you guys don't play ball". Don't you guys get tired of saying the same thing? Some of you have seen the light and realize that this will be a great thing for everyone, others, not so much...........

Come on bro. I'm not hatin'. I think, after reading the Process Agreement, that your MEC has agreed that NO MATTER how this shakes out every one of you will be in a better place.

It's very clearly written. Come to a negotiated agreement or the **** hits the fan. You signed it. We signed it. So we all agree. Correct? You have to see it from our side. If the deal goes south we have our contract and go back to September 26th. You guys will have lost everything, including your new contract. I can see where that could come across as a "take it or else" approach but that's not my intent. I am actually very confident that both memberships will approve an agreement.

I absolutely look forward to moving beyond the SLI and getting this behind us. I'm sure you do as well.

Sorry if my post came across the wrong way. There is a fine line between arrogance and confidence. I'll try to be more concise in the future.

Gup

 

[Lear70]

If the deal goes south we have our contract and go back to September 26th. You guys will have lost everything, including your new contract.

OK, have to admit, you lost me there. That's not anywhere in the Process Agreement, our CBA, or the RLA?

 

[canyonblue]

Some of you have seen the light and realize that this will be a great thing for everyone, others, not so much...........

I think the problem may be that I have never heard any Southwest pilot utter that statement.

 

[SWA/CA]

If it goes to Arbitration, it will have an implementation date, set by the Arbitrator. This was agreed to by SWA management, as well as SWAPA, ALPA, and AAI.

Arbitrator comes up with a list. Implementation date is made by SWA/SWAPA.

I think, we will come to an agreement without an Arbitrator... in my opinion.

 

[PCL_128]

It's very clearly written. Come to a negotiated agreement or the **** hits the fan.

Not sure what you mean by that. The process agreement states that there will be binding arbitration if a negotiated agreement isn't reached. How is that "the **** hits the fan?"

Arbitrator comes up with a list. Implementation date is made by SWA/SWAPA.

The arbitrator panel doesn't just issue a list, they also issue an implementation schedule. It's laid out clearly in the process agreement.

 

[ivauir]

The company's official announcement:

Earlier today, the respective Unions representing Southwest Airlines and AirTran Airways Pilots, as well as both Companies, signed a Four-Party Process Agreement that provides for the two pilot groups to begin their seniority integration discussions prior to legal closing of the AirTran acquisition. It also outlines provisions of an implementation schedule in the event an agreement is reached on an integrated seniority list (ISL). Southwest anticipates closing on its acquisition of AirTran Airways in second quarter of 2011.

“This is yet another important step in the overall process of bringing these two great carriers together,” said Mike Van de Ven, Southwest Airlines Executive Vice President and Chief Operating Officer. “I applaud both sides for signing this important agreement that lays the groundwork for bringing together these two hardworking Pilot groups.”

The Southwest Airlines Pilots’ Association (SWAPA) and the Air Line Pilots’ Association (ALPA) can now begin the work of integrating seniority lists in accordance with the McCaskill-Bond Act. This new Four-Party Process Agreement also creates a timeline for SWAPA and ALPA to reach an ISL agreement. If an agreement is not reached during this timeframe, the matter will be sent to arbitration and a new implementation process will have to be negotiated.

 

[humveedriver]

I don't know. My understanding is if this goes to arbitration, a 3 person panel creates the ISL, no later than 31 DEC 2011. Then the effective date has to be agreed upon by both sides. If both sides can't agree, the 3 person panel will decide the effective date. That date will not be earlier than SOC or both groups being represented by a single bargaining reperesentative; I'm paraphrasing Section V (g). So... to me it sounds like there is a process.

 

[waveflyer]

Does anyone have an actual link to the bond-mccaskill amendment- finding the exact language of it has been "hard" to google
- says the man who spent 5 minutes

 

[GlobeIII]

Some of you have seen the light and realize that this will be a great thing for everyone, others, not so much...........

Not this Southwest Pilot!!!! Other Southwest pilots feel free to chime in as I have never once heard this sentiment on the line.

 

[GlobeIII]

Not sure what you mean by that. The process agreement states that there will be binding arbitration if a negotiated agreement isn't reached. How is that "the **** hits the fan?"

I am glad Air Tran has the only "official" union member assigned to comment on Flight Info regarding the Acquistion. Haven't seen many SWAPA folks appointed as such..wonder why?

 

[texman]

I have seen the light. This deal has the potential to create growth. Now, with that being said we southwest pilots feel we have earned a right to be at swa. You can't blame us for feeling that way. GK will take care of his own first then yall. We swa pilots do respect what you have built since 1994. But that should go. Both ways. If Yall feel that GK can't crush this deal, think agian. I been trying to tell everyone on this board since day one, this is GK's game. Not some arbitrators. Yes there are laws that need to be respected, but dont think for one moment that Alpa is going to tie GK's hands. Our shareholders do respect our culture, this is what has made them money. The light AT needs to see, is Yall had no money to grow. Swa will help you. Swapa will make your life better. We Swapa pilots have nothing to gain from this, unless we grow and get a good deal out of the MISL. AT will get a great QOL , working environment, money and job security. You can't have every thing. Good luck to us all.

 

[shootr]

Not sure what you mean by that. The process agreement states that there will be binding arbitration if a negotiated agreement isn't reached. How is that "the **** hits the fan?"

The arbitrator panel doesn't just issue a list, they also issue an implementation schedule. It's laid out clearly in the process agreement.

Disclaimer...I DO want this deal to happen. I think it will be a good thing for all of us and SWA. I have friends at AT that I think are good guys and I'll be pleased to have them here.

With that said, if PCL is really a union guy and he really thinks it's all roses for you guys no matter what, your membership might need to question ALPA a little and figure out what their motivations really are. If he has that wide of a view of what could happen he doesn't understand SWA, Gary, our culture, and ALL of the agreements signed in the last few months. The process agreement gives Gary a quick timeline to see how the SLI goes. It allows him to make decisions quickly rather than waiting for a lengthy process.

I don't fear arbitration. I do think it would be harmful to the combined group and I believe Gary agrees. Our CEO wants a negotiated solution. SWAPA wants a negotiated solution. If AT ALPA does not want a negotiated solution you can kind of see how that looks to SWA. NOBODY forces our management to make business decisions. Esp. not a union. Just look at our history.

Here's a thought. Gary wants relief from our scope for the duration of the transition. We've told him that we want him to PAY us to get us to go along. MAYBE he's thinking we'll back off on the need for cash/equity if we see that he's actually backing our group up in this whole process. (I don't know this as truth, just as a possibility.) He couldn't just come out and say it but he could do it in a nuanced way. Maybe it's not obvious, yet, to some.

Again, I really do think this could be a good thing and I hope it happens in a good way. I won't be upset if something else happens, though. Many in SWAPA agree with this sentiment.

shootr

 

[On Your Six]

Arbitrator comes up with a list. Implementation date is made by SWA/SWAPA.

I think, we will come to an agreement without an Arbitrator... in my opinion.

Yeah, riiiiight. If I were an Airtran pilot, I wouldn't accept anything from SWAPA. Just let a neutral do it, with no strings attached. That will ENSURE fairness, and that is what the SWAPA guys are afraid of.


OYS

 

[On Your Six]

Disclaimer...I DO want this deal to happen. I think it will be a good thing for all of us and SWA. I have friends at AT that I think are good guys and I'll be pleased to have them here.

With that said, if PCL is really a union guy and he really thinks it's all roses for you guys no matter what, your membership might need to question ALPA a little and figure out what their motivations really are. If he has that wide of a view of what could happen he doesn't understand SWA, Gary, our culture, and ALL of the agreements signed in the last few months. The process agreement gives Gary a quick timeline to see how the SLI goes. It allows him to make decisions quickly rather than waiting for a lengthy process.

I don't fear arbitration. I do think it would be harmful to the combined group and I believe Gary agrees. Our CEO wants a negotiated solution. SWAPA wants a negotiated solution. If AT ALPA does not want a negotiated solution you can kind of see how that looks to SWA. NOBODY forces our management to make business decisions. Esp. not a union. Just look at our history.

Here's a thought. Gary wants relief from our scope for the duration of the transition. We've told him that we want him to PAY us to get us to go along. MAYBE he's thinking we'll back off on the need for cash/equity if we see that he's actually backing our group up in this whole process. (I don't know this as truth, just as a possibility.) He couldn't just come out and say it but he could do it in a nuanced way. Maybe it's not obvious, yet, to some.

Again, I really do think this could be a good thing and I hope it happens in a good way. I won't be upset if something else happens, though. Many in SWAPA agree with this sentiment.

shootr

Arbitration is HARMFUL to the group? Why? Because one side didn't GET what they thought they deserved? Let someone neutral decide that. And, both sides can then blame ONE PERSON, the ARBITRATOR, and not themselves or each side. It is easier to blame a person on the outside rather than the guy you are flying with. And, I bet GK just doesn't care. If he favors one side over the other, the other side will not fully embrace the SWA culture then, which would be worse. Wall Street wants this merger done, and GK knows that.


OYS

 

[Crash Pad]

Ok can we stop with the "GK will...." GK most likely can't understand how the list isn't already done. I picture this as a quote "I got a 1.4 billion deal in the works, we are fighting for DOJ approval, integrating routes and fleet types, reworking ticketing, I got a meeting with the frequent flyer guy at 2:00, catering, payroll, the list goes on and on. So what are the pilots fighting about? TEN NUMBERS ON AN 8000 NUMBER LIST!!!! You have got to be ********************ting me."

We don't know what GK thinks... So stop posting his thoughts.

Here is my next question for both sides. WHAT THE ******************** ARE WE FIGHTING ABOUT? I've seen the SWA list. I've run the numbers ten ways to tuesday. DOH, rope off the SWA top 800 then: 4 to1 or 7 to 2 etc... Rope off the top 400 then: 3 to 1, 7 to 2, 4 to 1.

IT ALL ENDS THE SAME YOU ********************ING IDIOTS!!!!

You end up integrating roughly 1000 AirTran pilots. The bottom 700 or so of our list go to the bottom of the list. Just numbers not union spin.

Wait it gets better... In fiveish years you have 1000 retirements!!!

Let me make sure I get this right. You get all our planes but only have to integrate 1000ish of our pilots. We get more money and more days off.

So I'll ask again. Assuming no staple which I think we all know is out. What the ******************** are we talking about?

 

[On Your Six]

Ok can we stop with the "GK will...." GK most likely can't understand how the list isn't already done. I picture this as a quote "I got a 1.4 billion deal in the works, we are fighting for DOJ approval, integrating routes and fleet types, reworking ticketing, I got a meeting with the frequent flyer guy at 2:00, catering, payroll, the list goes on and on. So what are the pilots fighting about? TEN NUMBERS ON AN 8000 NUMBER LIST!!!! You have got to be ********************ting me."

We don't know what GK thinks... So stop posting his thoughts.

Here is my next question for both sides. WHAT THE ******************** ARE WE FIGHTING ABOUT? I've seen the SWA list. I've run the numbers ten ways to tuesday. DOH, rope off the SWA top 800 then: 4 to1 or 7 to 2 etc... Rope off the top 400 then: 3 to 1, 7 to 2, 4 to 1.

IT ALL ENDS THE SAME YOU ********************ING IDIOTS!!!!

You end up integrating roughly 1000 AirTran pilots. The bottom 700 or so of our list go to the bottom of the list. Just numbers not union spin.

Wait it gets better... In fiveish years you have 1000 retirements!!!

Let me make sure I get this right. You get all our planes but only have to integrate 1000ish of our pilots. We get more money and more days off.

So I'll ask again. Assuming no staple which I think we all know is out. What the ******************** are we talking about?

Um, no. An arbitrator will put BOTH SWA and AT guys at the bottom of your list. That is why SWAPA doesn't want an arbitrator, and this is why AT guys want one. It also doesn't matter how many retirements you MAY have in 5 years (assuming SWA Captains don't go for age 70 next). NWA had 5 times the number of future retirments compared to the Delta guys, and the arbitrators still went fairly relative on the SLI. Also, you SWA pilots aren't giving up a dime to the AT guys, your management will be. AT is bringing younger planes to the table, whereas SWA will be retiring 735s and 733s first. Both of you have 738s on order. Even if SWA was getting more 738s in an order, they would be REPLACING old 735s and 733s leaving the fleet first. Not much growth for awhile until all of the older planes are gone. So, no argument there. Get an arbitrator or a group of them, and start from there, unless you are afraid of something....


OYS

 

[GuppyWN]

Crashpad,

I won't comment on HOW it should go down but I agree with your sentiment. I guess the fighting is 5900 WN pilots trying to protect 40 years of history/seniority and 1650 AAI pilots trying to get all they can.

Gup

 

[GuppyWN]

This is not your fight OYS and you don't know what both sides know. The Process Agreement clearly spells out that a negotiated settlement is the way to go.

Gup