SWA/Airtran Process Agreement??

[clr4theapch]

Moving this thread to the union section..

Hey Guys..

Sorry you don't like to see a clearly organized FI. Since this was a union discussion, I thought this was a topic that belonged in the "Unions" section.. But silly me... what was I thinking..
I realize that the ONLY thing you guys want to see " right now" is for everything related to majors to be in one place.. sort of like having a QRH with no sections in it!!!

This way when you want to find something really fast, you get to page through the whole dam book to find it.. rrrright...

As a moderator, I am seeking to "fully" utilize every section of this web site, keep it organized so "other" members outside of the majors,( yes there are other people in aviation) or perhaps one of you in the future wants to look back at what happend with a contract or discussion and can actually find what you were looking for.. ( what an idea!)

All these threads will one day die and disapear into the archives of these sections, and if they were not set up the proper section to start with, someone in the future will never find the INFO they were looking for in a search..

But I regress... I forgot this is the Now generation, and the heck with what happens down the road.. But I guarantee someone will complain about why thay can't find a discussion down the road, and gee.. why did'nt someone way back then keep this place organized... I can't win for loosing with you guys..

So when the inmates run the jail.. a mess will follow.. and questions already answered will be asked again, and someone will get a sarcastic reply to go do a search.. blah blah.. and the attacks continue...

We may as well just have a bulletin board for everything, no sections, all topics in one place... and then we can be just one more crappy web site that dies..

I challenge "anyone" here and now to step the hell up to the plate and volunteer your time as a moderator... see what I see and how things should be run when you look at everyone that uses this web site.....

Contrary to this groups belief, there are other people in aviation for moderator's to consider here... but your the inmates..

So this thread gets moved BACK to the majors section... and you all can have it your way.. :angryfire

 

[Rango]

Hey Guys..
I challenge "anyone" here and now to step the hell up to the plate and volunteer your time as a moderator... see what I see and how things should be run when you look at everyone that uses this web site.....

Contrary to this groups belief, there are other people in aviation for moderator's to consider here... but your the inmates..

So this thread gets moved BACK to the majors section... and you all can have it your way.. :angryfire

I accept your challenge. If you look around or pay attention you see a lot of mergers going on in the majors. When mergers are discussed then union talk will be included in the discussion. You kill the discussion when you move a thread from an area of 495,000 posts to a closet with 2000 posts.

I'm sure others will agree.

 

[Kharma Police]

Hey Guys..

Sorry you don't like to see a clearly organized FI. Since this was a union discussion, I thought this was a topic that belonged in the "Unions" section.. But silly me... what was I thinking..
I realize that the ONLY thing you guys want to see " right now" is for everything related to majors to be in one place.. sort of like having a QRH with no sections in it!!!

This way when you want to find something really fast, you get to page through the whole dam book to find it.. rrrright...

As a moderator, I am seeking to "fully" utilize every section of this web site, keep it organized so "other" members outside of the majors,( yes there are other people in aviation) or perhaps one of you in the future wants to look back at what happend with a contract or discussion and can actually find what you were looking for.. ( what an idea!)

All these threads will one day die and disapear into the archives of these sections, and if they were not set up the proper section to start with, someone in the future will never find the INFO they were looking for in a search..

But I regress... I forgot this is the Now generation, and the heck with what happens down the road.. But I guarantee someone will complain about why thay can't find a discussion down the road, and gee.. why did'nt someone way back then keep this place organized... I can't win for loosing with you guys..

So when the inmates run the jail.. a mess will follow.. and questions already answered will be asked again, and someone will get a sarcastic reply to go do a search.. blah blah.. and the attacks continue...

We may as well just have a bulletin board for everything, no sections, all topics in one place... and then we can be just one more crappy web site that dies..

I challenge "anyone" here and now to step the hell up to the plate and volunteer your time as a moderator... see what I see and how things should be run when you look at everyone that uses this web site.....

Contrary to this groups belief, there are other people in aviation for moderator's to consider here... but your the inmates..

So this thread gets moved BACK to the majors section... and you all can have it your way.. :angryfire

Very true, we are the inmates in the asylum, but you should try and stop being the FI Nurse Ratched.......

 

[Dan Roman]

I think this issue needs to go to arbitration........

 

[GuppyWN]

I think this issue needs to go to arbitration........

It did. The evidence clearly showed how one-sided the initial decision was. After considering career expectations, thread position and overall increase in quality of life the thread was stapled in the bottom of the majors section.

As it should be.

Gup

 

[dicko]

Yes they are. You left off the end of 5g. The plain facts are that absent a negotiated agreement there are no guarantees.

Southwest Airlines press release:

http://swamedia.com/releases/e92ed2d6-ca48-da7f-caa0-6b004da76053



No more stalling. It is time to play ball fellas.

“Utilizing the foregoing procedures, the Parties will implement an orderly combination of the Southwest Pilots and AirTran Pilots under a single collective bargaining agreement and representation by a single collective bargaining representative within a single transportation system under the RLA.”

 

[Bill Nelson]

dicko,
If you are under the illusion that a process agreement will force a major airline to integrate operations you are reaching. This is a process for negotiating a list and if the operations are combined then the list that is derived from this process will be implemented.

 

[texman]

dicko,
If you are under the illusion that a process agreement will force a major airline to integrate operations you are reaching. This is a process for negotiating a list and if the operations are combined then the list that is derived from this process will be implemented.

This is how I understand it. So basically we have to wait and see when SOC will happen.

 

[dicko]

dicko,
If you are under the illusion that a process agreement will force a major airline to integrate operations you are reaching. This is a process for negotiating a list and if the operations are combined then the list that is derived from this process will be implemented.

I'm inclined to agree with you. I didn't imply that SWA would be forced to do anything. They are running the show.

 

[texman]

I'm inclined to agree with you. I didn't imply that SWA would be forced to do anything. They are running the show.

I think we are all just along for the ride. I just wish we had a crystal ball. I think once we see the future of both groups, all can rest. I still feel this won't be SWA's last acquisition over the next 5 years. GK wants 49% of the domestic market. Cash is king.

 

[texman]

When did the AT furloughs start, how many and when did the last one get back on property? How many new hires where there after that?

 

[Ty Webb]

dicko,
This is a process for negotiating a list and if the operations are combined then the list that is derived from this process will be implemented.

It's not "if", but "when", and if you and Bobby D. are still hoping for otherwise, you guys are kidding yourselves.

 

[Secret Squirrel]

When did the AT furloughs start, how many and when did the last one get back on property? How many new hires where there after that?

Furloughs started I believe the 4th of September 2008. 169 people were furloughed. There were also some LOA's granted. Recalls started Jan 2009. I believe there were 4 months of recall classes. I am not sure what percentage returned from furlough. But there was a furloughed guy that bypassed until this last new hire class from what I have heard (12/20/2010). New hires started February 2010 and 131 people were hired until our last class in December 2010.

 

[Bill Nelson]

It's not "if", but "when", and if you and Bobby D. are still hoping for otherwise, you guys are kidding yourselves

Whatever makes you feel better. Your RJ's are much less attractive with oil at $120 than they were back in September.

According to Swapa there is absolutely nothing keeping Gary from fragmenting your operation and keeping the parts that he deems desirable. This is permitted by your contract in section 1. If there is no actual combination of operations you will not be on the SWA master seniority list. That isn't a threat that is a fact. Bond/McCaskill only applies in the event of an actual combination of flight operations.

 

[texman]

Furloughs started I believe the 4th of September 2008. 169 people were furloughed. There were also some LOA's granted. Recalls started Jan 2009. I believe there were 4 months of recall classes. I am not sure what percentage returned from furlough. But there was a furloughed guy that bypassed until this last new hire class from what I have heard (12/20/2010). New hires started February 2010 and 131 people were hired until our last class in December 2010.

Thanks for the info. I am wondering how the 169 would fit in relation to career expectations. What DOH did that furlough go back to? Fall of 2007?

 

[Lear70]

I didn't see anything at the end of 5.G that changes what I wrote or necessitates a new integration timeline. It simply requires SOC and NMB single carrier approval.

Since SWA has already applied for SOC and has approval for and a timeline for it from the FAA, I'm confused how this changes the process agreement,,,?

I'm just here to fly. The rest of it is out of my hands so why worry about it? It will be what it will be, and I trust both respective merger committees to find some kind of middle ground.

 

[Secret Squirrel]

Career expectations when? Sept 4 of 2008 when the furlough started or Sept 26. 2010 when Airtran was hiring and taking airplanes with 100 plus new hires below them?

Furlough went back to bottom of the seniority list of Sept. 2007.

 

[Ty Webb]

Whatever makes you feel better. Your RJ's are much less attractive with oil at $120 than they were back in September.

According to Swapa there is absolutely nothing keeping Gary from fragmenting your operation and keeping the parts that he deems desirable. This is permitted by your contract in section 1. If there is no actual combination of operations you will not be on the SWA master seniority list. That isn't a threat that is a fact. Bond/McCaskill only applies in the event of an actual combination of flight operations.

Have you read Section VI of the Process Agreement, signed by SWA and SWAPA, which states, in part, that “Utilizing the foregoing procedures, the Parties will implement an orderly combination of the
Southwest Pilots and AirTran Pilots under a single collective bargaining agreement and
representation by a single collective bargaining representative within a single transportation
system under the RLA.” ?

 

[texman]

Career expectations when? Sept 4 of 2008 when the furlough started or Sept 26. 2010 when Airtran was hiring and taking airplanes with 100 plus new hires below them?

Furlough went back to middle of the seniority list of Sept. 2007.

We had about, I think (400) new hires in 08. All have stayed on property for about equal if not more time in seat than the furloughed 07/08 AT guy's? Just a question. So right off the bat 131 AT guy's and girls will be at the bottom of the new list.

Yes the snap shot date will be the 26th of contract's and list's. Just thinking how a arbitrator would look at the bottom of both lists.

 

[texman]

Have you read Section VI of the Process Agreement, signed by SWA and SWAPA, which states, in part, that “Utilizing the foregoing procedures, the Parties will implement an orderly combination of the
Southwest Pilots and AirTran Pilots under a single collective bargaining agreement and
representation by a single collective bargaining representative within a single transportation
system under the RLA.” ?

Ty,

Talking to all SWA/AT guy's. The ISL will not be binding till SOC and JCBA. But you guys do have a fragmentation clause right? Meaning you go where airplanes go?

 

[Secret Squirrel]

How about the furlough guys that bypassed till 2010? Guys on LOA? Military guys that took the job then went right into Mil leave without actully working the line? Long term Medical? Lots of guys came back to class in the last couple classes to get on the final list. Including managment folks who have not flown the line in years if ever. Good luck to the negotiators.

 

[Ty Webb]

Ty,

Talking to all SWA/AT guy's. The ISL will not be binding till SOC and JCBA. But you guys do have a fragmentation clause right? Meaning you go where airplanes go?

I believe you are correct in that regards. I don't think it is likely, and even less likely now, given the concerns with the -300's, but yes, still possible.

The last thing a SWA pilot, especially an FO, should hope for would be a fragmentation . . . if things are bad enough to be selling aircraft that were making money for AirTran . . . the airline would be shrinking, not growing. Not good for anyone.

 

[cappydd]

They should have been on the list even if furloughed, medical, LOA, or military leave? Its just now a question of where they wind up on the final list. But as I understand it, anyone hired after Sept. 27th will be on bottom??

 

[texman]

I believe you are correct in that regards. I don't think it was ever likely, and even less likely now, given the concerns with the -300's, but yes, still possible.

The last thing a SWA pilot, especially an FO, should hope for would be a fragmentation . . . if things are bad enough to be selling aircraft that were making money for AirTran . . . the airline would be shrinking, not growing. Not good for anyone.

No matter what we will grow. Sounds like GK is ready to rock. 300's hell don't know. We could replace them with 1900's LOL! Well hope to have a overall Net growth. Worked to hard the past 16 years to get to SouthWest, just to be at a shrinking airline.

 

[Ty Webb]

No matter what we will grow. Sounds like GK is ready to rock. 300's hell don't know. We could replace them with 1900's LOL! Well hope to have a overall Net growth. Worked to hard the past 16 years to get to SouthWest, just to be at a shrinking airline.

Amen, brutha! They (SWA mgmnt) are combining two networks, and I think the synergies they find and build on will create a lot of growth.

 

[texman]

They should have been on the list even if furloughed, medical, LOA, or military leave? Its just now a question of where they wind up on the final list. But as I understand it, anyone hired after Sept. 27th will be on bottom??

I agree. Just wondering if a arbitrator will factor in no furloughs for 40 years at SWA. Also use this as a career expectation point. Or are we going to be treated just like every airline, no job is secure.

Gen in 3,2,1.

 

[Flying the Line]

Here is the DMN blog story./
http://aviationblog.dallasnews.com/archives/2011/04/southwest-airtran-pilot-unions.html

 

[roughneck]

I had to take a break from the nonstop bickering but after listening to todays Swaptalk I thought I would get out my popcorn and watch the show. This should get good.

 

[carl p]

Once AT began hiring again there were no "Involuntary Furloughs" left. That is the distinction with past precedent, the Involuntary Furloughs (people who could not hold a job) have gotten hosed in the past because their seniority did not bring a job to the table. Voluntary Furloughs, Medical, or Military leave have historically been slotted with wherever their peers are on the list regardless if someone took the first recall or bypassed. On September 27 2010, AT had nobody on Involuntary Furlough. We had pilots whose seniority could hold a position who utilized their contractual right to bypass recall. The logic that you have furloughed pilots while hiring 100+ is silly.

Cheers.

 

[ivauir]

Have you read Section VI of the Process Agreement, signed by SWA and SWAPA, which states, in part, that “Utilizing the foregoing procedures, the Parties will implement an orderly combination of the
Southwest Pilots and AirTran Pilots under a single collective bargaining agreement and
representation by a single collective bargaining representative within a single transportation
system under the RLA.” ?

Nothing in the Process Agreement, Transition Agreement, Merger Documents, Bond-McCaskill, Mohawk-Allegheny, or Collective Bargaining Agreements entitles you to employment at Southwest Airlines.