SWA/Airtran Process Agreement??

[texman]

Boy this is going to be a long summer.

 

[Ty Webb]

If we go R/S then a famous poster here who has been at AAI since NOV01 would be senior to me who has been at SWA longer (still an FO). Famous poster would still be a CP and would also get a BIG raise and benefits. True I would not lose bidding power but I would not GET ANYTHING out of the deal...how is this F/E?? Just curious...

Famous Poster says:

Wow, a legitimate, sincere question, asked in a non-threatening or confrontational manner . . . . I must have stumbled onto the wrong forum.

Seriously . . . that's a legitimate question, and I could try to explain it from my viewpoint, as a guy who,by the time this is settled, will have already been a ATL-based Captain for 7 years, but that would just provoke more crap from some on this board, so, what's the point?

I will say that I am very glad for our MC/NC's. Not because I expect them to return form the table with some sort of undeserved prize for me, but because they are working through these complicated issues with patience, diligence and diplomacy. Not an easy task, but I hope they can return with something we can all vote for, shake hands, and move forward.

Regards,
Ty

 

[funnyman12]

To over simplify my opinion is there are four possibilities an arbitrator could rule.......1. Staple (never has happened/not legal), 2.DOH(hasn't happened recently), 3. Ratio method(most likely in my opinion), or 4.Straight relative seniority(unlikely in my opinion). If a ratio method is decided there most likely will be Airtran guys senior to some SW guys that were hired at Airtran after them.....BUT their overall position on the combined list will be higher than their current position on the SW seniority list. I may be wrong but an arbitrator will protect the SW guys in terms of their position on the combined list being at or better than their position on the current SW list. If this were to happen Airtran guys would lose a LITTLE on their position on the the combined list but would most likely have guys at SW hired before them below them. It is about bidding power and quality of life......Then again arbitrators can be a wild card and who knows the solution that will be decided.

 

[texman]

funny,

I see your logic. I can't wait for SWAPA to show the QOL and biding power of even a JR FO has at SWA. But never the less your right about the wild card. I am curious if the arbitrator will consider the 717 smaller craft and class than the 737, or the same.

 

[Beechdriver32]

Ok, so I understand- a 20 something 2001 new hire at AT who didn't meet SWA hiring mins can/should be placed above a 30 something 2001 WN new hire. Direct capt seat and a huge raise for the rest of the carrer. And the SWA guy only gets his upgrade delayed another few years. And thats fair.

Got it. Thanks.

And BTW, who said Staple was 'illegal'.
Unlikely, sure. But 'illegal', don't think so.

 

[madjack]

Funnyman, Ty,

Thanks for your rational unemotional responses. I just wanted to get a feel what the AAI guys feel is F/E. I know this is a delicate topic...but FYI, the talk on the line, especially at the FO/junior CP level is that DOH would be a huge gain for AAI at the expense of SWA pilots who interviewed, typed and did the time in the right seat at SWA. I would say some of the most emotional folks on our list are former AAI pilots that are now mid to senior FOs at SWA. Funnnyman's best guess that a ratio method that potentially places more senior DOH SWA pilots behind AAI pilots would be very contentious to say the least. What is the talk on the line at AAI...if this is too contentious to discuss pls PM me.

I agree with everyone who feels that we will grow and prosper as a combined group. The sooner we integrate the better for everybody.

If we drink G/Ks koolaid and believe we will hire another 1000 pilots post merger, the issues we are discussing will be moot.

 

[texman]

Funnyman, Ty,

Thanks for your rational unemotional responses. I just wanted to get a feel what the AAI guys feel is F/E. I know this is a delicate topic...but FYI, the talk on the line, especially at the FO/junior CP level is that DOH would be a huge gain for AAI at the expense of SWA pilots who interviewed, typed and did the time in the right seat at SWA. I would say some of the most emotional folks on our list are former AAI pilots that are now mid to senior FOs at SWA. Funnnyman's best guess that a ratio method that potentially places more senior DOH SWA pilots behind AAI pilots would be very contentious to say the least. What is the talk on the line at AAI...if this is too contentious to discuss pls PM me.

I agree with everyone who feels that we will grow and prosper as a combined group. The sooner we integrate the better for everybody.

If we drink G/Ks koolaid and believe we will hire another 1000 pilots post merger, the issues we are discussing will be moot.

I agree with the last sentence. It is in his hands though.

 

[On Your Six]

Famous Poster says:

Wow, a legitimate, sincere question, asked in a non-threatening or confrontational manner . . . . I must have stumbled onto the wrong forum.

Seriously . . . that's a legitimate question, and I could try to explain it from my viewpoint, as a guy who,by the time this is settled, will have already been a ATL-based Captain for 7 years, but that would just provoke more crap from some on this board, so, what's the point?

I will say that I am very glad for our MC/NC's. Not because I expect them to return form the table with some sort of undeserved prize for me, but because they are working through these complicated issues with patience, diligence and diplomacy. Not an easy task, but I hope they can return with something we can all vote for, shake hands, and move forward.


Regards,
Ty

I would just advise you have EXTRA outside lawyers look over any deal even after your ALPA lawyers sign off on a deal. Pay the extra money for the extra scrutiny.


OYS

 

[On Your Six]

Funnyman, Ty,

Thanks for your rational unemotional responses. I just wanted to get a feel what the AAI guys feel is F/E. I know this is a delicate topic...but FYI, the talk on the line, especially at the FO/junior CP level is that DOH would be a huge gain for AAI at the expense of SWA pilots who interviewed, typed and did the time in the right seat at SWA. I would say some of the most emotional folks on our list are former AAI pilots that are now mid to senior FOs at SWA. Funnnyman's best guess that a ratio method that potentially places more senior DOH SWA pilots behind AAI pilots would be very contentious to say the least. What is the talk on the line at AAI...if this is too contentious to discuss pls PM me.

I agree with everyone who feels that we will grow and prosper as a combined group. The sooner we integrate the better for everybody

If we drink G/Ks koolaid and believe we will hire another 1000 pilots post merger, the issues we are discussing will be moot.

I don't think AT will approve any outside deal that doesn't place their current Captains on the list within the current SWA Captain positions. That doesn't mean all AT Captains have to senior SWA captains, just within the mid to lower level Captain area. If that doesnt occur, I would expect them to run to arbitration. Captains now deserve to be Captains after the SLI, and that means senior to current FOs on both sides. That is likely what arbitrators would rule anyway. They don't have to be at the top of the list, but blended in within the current Captain ranks.


OYS

 

[slaquer5]

I would just advise you have EXTRA outside lawyers look over any deal even after your ALPA lawyers sign off on a deal. Pay the extra money for the extra scrutiny.


OYS

We finally agree on something. ALPA sucks and can't do anything right.

 

[On Your Six]

We finally agree on something. ALPA sucks and can't do anything right.

I don't think it is that extreme, but ALPA is also a business with dues, and they may not always do everything for the benefit of the pilots, only.


OYS

 

[madjack]

FYI,

Our current CBA does protect CPs from being displaced from a base by more senior pilots (CPs) unless there is a vacancy bid. For instance if the vacancy bid for a future SWA ATL base is 0 on the CP side, a more senior CP cannot bump a more junior ATL based CP.

 

[Cometman]

To over simplify my opinion is there are four possibilities an arbitrator could rule.......1. Staple (never has happened/not legal),

I missed something when I read the rule. Where did it say it is illegal? If the arbitrator thinks it would be fair is he prevented from stapling because it is against the law?

 

[On Your Six]

To over simplify my opinion is there are four possibilities an arbitrator could rule.......1. Staple (never has happened/not legal),

I missed something when I read the rule. Where did it say it is illegal? If the arbitrator thinks it would be fair is he prevented from stapling because it is against the law?

Bond/McKaskil bill doesn't allow a staple job I think.(or the extent of what AA (APA) did to TWA)


OYS

 

[madjack]

OYS,

I agree there is no way of predicting what an arbitrator will do...with that said a negotiated settlement would be a MUCH more desirable outcome for both parties and the ultimate combined group. It is also what management wants to happen. I suppose the logic is that a negotiated solution will help preserve the SWA culture whereas an arbitrated result will be more contentious if one party is viewed as getting a "better" deal.

The flip side of our CBA is that we have and will continue to downgrade our own CPs based on the manning requirements the company determines.

In other words the concept that a seat is protected does not even apply to the current SWA seniority list.

Our NC and SWAPA organization does not fear arbitration. Many pilots I have talked to on the line feel that arbitration would probably result in a better outcome for the current SWA pilots.

I assume that discussions with management and study of recent arbitration awards (notably the differences in the companies involved) has given our NC confidence. We also have an agreement (SL8) with the company that reopens negotiations if SWAPA/SWA view any award as unacceptable.

 

[Bill Nelson]

Bond/McKaskil bill doesn't allow a staple job I think.

Nothing in B/M keeps a stapler away. Any solution is fair game so long as it is fair and equitable.

 

[On Your Six]

Nothing in B/M keeps a stapler away. Any solution is fair game so long as it is fair and equitable.

How about it is tougher to just staple? Fair and equitable is different if SWA was acquiring a BK carrier or one that had a different business plan. Instead, AT is a profitable LCC that flies more INTL routes, with the same type of planes. AT's main hub, slots at DCA and more at LGA, make it a valuable pick up for SWA, which any arbitrator would pick up on. So Bill, don't get too excited about any possibility of something similar to a staple.


OYS

 

[Bill Nelson]

Our NC and SWAPA organization does not fear arbitration. Many pilots I have talked to on the line feel that arbitration would probably result in a better outcome for the current SWA pilots.

I ran into a SWAPA guy yesterday afternoon in the lounge. He was very pleased at the Bob Jordan announcement.

I'm slow so it took me a few minutes and a lot of explaining before I understood what he was talking about. If this goes to arbitration, which SWA does not want, there will be 4 parties allowed in the Arbitration. SWA. AirTran (with our very own Bob Jordan running the show), SWAPA and ALPA.

Basically 3 parties representing 40,000 employees are on one side and ALPA representing 1500 on the other. SWAPA says the company is fully behind its pilots and that AirTran will be behind SWAPA too because they know ALPA will be off the property soon enough.

He was very excited about the new found confidence in a negotiated deal. He didn't figure even ALPA would be dumb enough to go to arbitration armed with only a spoon and face SWA, SWAPA, and AirTran while they are all holding Nukes.

I slept good last night.

 

[Tweet-a-Lishus]

Honestly, I really think that OYS is doing more damage to the Airtran pilots with his Dumbass comments than he is helping. It is going to be really fun kicking OYS's ass out of ATL when we are one airline. Here to seeing my Airtran brothers online!

 

[On Your Six]

I ran into a SWAPA guy yesterday afternoon in the lounge. He was very pleased at the Bob Jordan announcement.

I'm slow so it took me a few minutes and a lot of explaining before I understood what he was talking about. If this goes to arbitration, which SWA does not want, their will be 4 parties allowed in the Arbitration. SWA. AirTran (with our very own Bob Jordan), SWAPA and ALPA.

Basically 3 parties representing 40,000 employees are on one side and ALPA representing 1500 on the other. SWAPA says the company is fully behind its pilots and that AirTran will be behind SWAPA too because they know ALPA will be off the property soon enough.

He was very excited about the new found confidence in a negotiated deal. He didn't figure even ALPA would be dumb enough to go to arbitration with a
spoon and face SWA, SWAPA, and AirTran while they are holding Nukes.

I slept good last night.

In arbitration, SWA, SWAPA, and AirTran are at the mercy of the judges. They are paid to be fair and neutral, with no intimidation. If they want a fair deal, ALPA will go for arbitration, which most AT pilots will want if your SWAPA deal isn't completely fair.


OYS