Students and freshly minted commercial pilots read here!!

[schoolio]

theres a place like that in waco texas that looks pretty cool.

couldnt tell ya what the name is, www.google.com

I think that's TSTC...try www.tstc.edu

 

[mcjohn]

http://www.waco.tstc.edu/apt/index.php

 

[The_Russian]

Dear McJohn,

While we appriciate your attempts to correct all the wrong doing in this industry, I believe you are talking out of place. First, you talk of the other bridge programs and flight schools as if you have first hand experience with them, when you do not. Your knowledge of everything in the industry is based on hearsay, testimony, and flightinfo rumor if you have not actually experienced it. Secondly, you believe that only total time counts in the quality of a pilot. I have flown with T-38 IP's that suck worse than guys with 230 hours just of IOE in the BE1900. I doesn't matter where you come from, your background, or your flight time. If you can't operate aircraft with skill, you will never be able to. Moving on. You seem to believe that everyone with turbine time below 1000 hours has had their rich parents pay for them. That is simply not true. I have a debt to Key Bank, not to the rents. And BTW, my parents are middle class as with most of the people who I know at my airline. Finally, you are not in the airline industry. Stay within your own realm.

Advice:

1. Keep instructing. get out as soon as possible and into turbine equipment. (no duh)

2. Do not take a job in a jet for $20 an hour. You are just as bad as all the ones you are pointing your finger at if you accept. The regional jet IS the downfall of compensation in the industry. Ask any transportation or aviation analyst. Go to a turboprop regional, upgrade to Captain quick.

3. Don't run you mouth about things you don't have a first hand knowledge of.

4. People who train at the places mentions get jobs. And they get them quickly. I was a CFI for three years. While it did teach me things and I do recommend it, I got nothing out of it towards advancing my career. Most of this was attributed to 9/11. I finally broke down and went to GIA. Now I am a Captain at 25, I have 1000 PIC turbine and I am ready to move up. Best thing I ever got in debt over.

Reason I can talk:

I have been on both sides of the fence and see the truth. I used to point fingers at my own students at GAA and ask why they were in the airliner and I was not. The reason was because they were career smart and I wasn't.

I am not biased or jealous (anymore). I once was as an instructor. That is how I know you are jealous and that you feel as though no one else deserves those jobs but you.

I have first hand experience with what you speak of. Good luck to all of you. Don't listen to anyone but yourself. They don't know whats best for you.

 

[Flying Ninja]

...propaganda...

Not everyone is as fortunate and as lucky as you are. Some of us did go through fast track programs and got taken. I for one have certificates that are useless and a logbook that hasn't been opened in months because I can't afford to get into the business. I don't have any more fuggin' money. So maybe you shouldn't run your mouth too quickly either. The whole point to this thread is to advise people NOT to jump into this industry too quickly and definitely consider the ramifications of fast track programs. Because they all lie and definitely don't paint you the real picture of this fuggin' career path.

 

[The_Russian]

Not everyone is as fortunate and as lucky as you are.

Not fortunate or lucky. I worked very hard to get where I am. It wasn't all about GIA.

So maybe you shouldn't run your mouth too quickly either. The whole point to this thread is to advise people NOT to jump into this industry too quickly and definitely consider the ramifications of fast track programs.

I am not running my mouth. I speak the truth.

Because they all lie and definitely don't paint you the real picture of this fuggin' career path.

The airlines follow suite with the schools. They will tell you the same poop.

Sorry buddy, if you really wanted it you would beg for it. You could still be flying part time to build hours. I hear this stuff all the time.

 

[Flying Ninja]

Sorry buddy, if you really wanted it you would beg for it. You could still be flying part time to build hours. I hear this stuff all the time.

Look a$$hole, if I had the money, I would be flying everyday. But I don't. I gave all my money into CAPT and outside flying to try to get ahead. And it got me to the point where I'm about to declare bankruptcy. So do me a favor and don't insult me because I DID want it and I DID try hard. I ran out of money to keep this crap up. So, unless you know some company that's willing to put my ass in a plane for free or find me a jet job of which I'd be happy to fly for nothing in order to make myself more attractive to the airlines, I'd appreciate it if you just shut it.

 

[The_Russian]

Not nice!

Look a$$hole, if I had the money, I would be flying everyday. But I don't. I gave all my money into CAPT and outside flying to try to get ahead. And it got me to the point where I'm about to declare bankruptcy. So do me a favor and don't insult me because I DID want it and I DID try hard. I ran out of money to keep this crap up. So, unless you know some company that's willing to put my ass in a plane for free or find me a jet job of which I'd be happy to fly for nothing in order to make myself more attractive to the airlines, I'd appreciate it if you just shut it.Today 16:29

Not very nice of you! Look, obviously you don't understand what I am trying to say. It doesn't take money to fly airplanes. You can pump fuel at an FBO for a decent wage and make connections flying everything from Cessnas to Jets. I did it for two years. You may only get 200 hours a year or so if you push really hard at it, but it's a start. There are a thousand low time jobs out there to build total time at decent wages. It seems to me like you DON'T want it anymore. The only reason you want me to shut up is because I turned on the light while you were sleeping.

 

[Flying Ninja]

Whatever helps you sleep at night. I know I tried and gave my money into flying. And now I got 100K of debt to pay off. Tell me again how I'm going to make $1000 monthly payments along with the cost of living pumping gas at a FBO?

 

[de727ups]

"I am not running my mouth. I speak the truth"

Russian, you are so full of it. The vast majority of professional pilots who know about the Gulfstream scheme HATE it and what it stands for. THAT'S the truth. What hole do you live in that you don't see that?

Anybody who had the skill and ability to get into a T38 deserves a lot more respect as a pilot than your give them credit for. Take a T38 guy with no airline background or tubroprop time and put them in a 1900 and they will struggle for a while. But ya know what, they paid their dues, which is a lot more than a 500 hour guy that leaves the Gulfstream program with no CFI.

Ninja, just ignore this guy, he's a tool. And thanks for posting at JC. It's nice to have you around.

 

[mcjohn]

Hi Russian. Good to hear from you. I'm totally open to opposing views here and you make some O.K. points. Gulfstream has worked for some. So has CAPT. My mission here it to expose to people the financial risks associated with attending these places. In my opinion these financial risks are NOT worth it unless you just have money to burn. If you want to guarantee that your money is put into a WISE investment then GAA or CAPT is not the place. Also, those places undermine the industry. Every single bit of training that you recieve at GAA or CAPT is what most airlines will PAY YOU to recieve once you make it there. Aaaaanyway:

Advice:

2. Do not take a job in a jet for $20 an hour. You are just as bad as all the ones you are pointing your finger at if you accept. The regional jet IS the downfall of compensation in the industry. Ask any transportation or aviation analyst. Go to a turboprop regional, upgrade to Captain quick.

Better yet, don't take a job flying a BE1900 for 7 bucks an hour!!??

3. Don't run you mouth about things you don't have a first hand knowledge of.

I find it extremely important that people don't allow themselves to get ripped off just because they "don't have 1st hand knowledge about the industry."
Also, my posts aren't so much about what to expect once you're in the airlines as they are about wise financial moves before you get there.

4. People who train at the places mentions get jobs. And they get them quickly.

Let's be realistic. Not ALL people who go to those places get jobs quickly or even at all. The one's who do get the jobs will make 20k a year to start if they're lucky. The most deferment on that Key Bank loan is 6 months. So, the new hire can expect to pay house/apartment rent $600-1000/month along with at least $400/month on the flight training loan. Where's the money for a car or eating out or dating gonna come from making 20k/year.

I once was as an instructor. That is how I know you are jealous and that you feel as though no one else deserves those jobs but you.

There's a difference between jealousy and envy. I envy pilots that have a decent job and QOL about as much as you envy the captains of a say a 747 or something. This is not about who deserves the jobs as much as the effect that buying right seat time in a 121 operation has on the industry while at the same time ruining someone's financial well being.

Russian, I remember you well. I came here about 3 years ago to get some info on Gulfstream and you stuck up for me when everyone was ripping me a knew one as I came up with creative excuses to go to GAA. Over that time I have done a lot or research on most PFT programs. I know a lot about them. All I can say is that I chose my path and now I own a house and have no debt and good QOL. The price payed for that - I don't have a jet job and won't qualify for one any time soon and I'm O.K. with that especially considering the negative impact GAA and CAPT and all that has on the industry and the financial well being of the attendees.

 

[mcjohn]

Oh yeah, BTW FlyingNinja....don't file for bankruptcy! That stays on your record for a loooong time. Use one of those debt management services. Some are good and some are bad so research them before you use em. Remember that a lot of flying jobs won't hire you unless you have a decent credit history and bankruptcy will ruin that. Good luck.

 

[sharpeye]

I have read many posts over the years about different schools, and it amazes me that people fill these sites with so much negative information even when it is not asked, it's just volunteered I guess the posters would say. I agree there are schools out there that people should be weary of and stay away from. But if you don't know first hand about the school then you need to watch what you say. Here is what I do know first hand. I got all of my ratings and licenses at a Part141 school in Florida. I then became a CFI and taught at a school that began with 4 airplanes. Over the course of almost a year we had about 10 planes and many students keeping us, the instructors, very busy (I was the only instructor at the time the school was starting). The owner of the flight school baught himself a corporate jet (he made his money in something other then aviation). The insurance company would not insure me as a FO because of my experience level, they wanted turbine time. I elected to go to GIA and did their FO program. I flew almost 350 hrs in the 1900 and then after 9-11 I went back and flew as a FO on the corporate jet. I had a little over 1000 hrs with 350 turbine so the insurance company said ok (with formal airline training on the 1900). I had several jobs since then, lucky enough to stay on a corporate jet and build jet time as well as eventually PIC jet time. I now have just under 3000 hours and am currently an FO on the B747-400 (started for an airline in November of last year) and just got back from a 13.5 hr Pacific flight at 6 this morning. I'm not here to brag by any means and would be more than happy to help anyone in their aviation career if I can. My point is this, there are many reasons why people do the things they do. In my case I had an opportunity if I was able to get some turbine experience. I jumped at the opportunity and because I did so and with some more luck, I'll admit, I am where I'm at today. You can not judge someone just because they go to a particular school. Maybe you should understand why they did and their reasons before you judge them. GIA is an expensive school, but many people there are going through it for the same reason. They are gaining valuable experience and honestly the training I received there was better then any training I recieved at Simuflite or Flight Safety. They were a lot more stringent on their standards. I wish you all the best of luck and fly safe.

 

[mcjohn]

Thanks sharpeye. No beef here. One thing that's unique with your background is that you used Gulfstream to qualify for a job that you pretty much knew you had. And, that job was not with a regional airline. If someone's dying to get on with a regional why spend 40K at GAA? Your only going to make 20K a year to start. Better move would be to take 8k to Ari-Ben and get your 100 hrs of multi and get on with Colgan through their partenership.

 

[sharpeye]

Here's something else for those just starting out. A friend of mine did the CFI thing as well and was just hired with ASA I believe with around 1000hours. If it wasn't ASA I'll let you know but I'm pretty sure that's who it was with and I won't be able to talk to him for a few days. But here's the thing, why don't more people tell others how they ARE doing it, not how they AREN'T. There are many regionals hiring and hiring guys with only 1000hrs or so. So guys, let each other know who's doing the hiring and how or what they need to do, what is the particular hiring process for that airline.......

 

[mcjohn]

why don't more people tell others how they ARE doing it, not how they AREN'T. There are many regionals hiring and hiring guys with only 1000hrs or so. So guys, let each other know who's doing the hiring and how or what they need to do, what is the particular hiring process for that airline.......

Regionals are desperate for pilots right now because they keep getting new contracts by out bidding each other. Because they just out bid the other competitor they have new runs but not enough money to pay the pilots a reasonable wage so where do they go? They go to Gulfstream and similar to get pilots that they know will be happy working for pennies. This keeps the ticket price down so that the major airline gets the business from Orbitz, Priceline etc..All at the expense of the pilots and the F/A. If a pilot wants to go work for pennies then so be it. But for the love of god don't go to Gulfstream to prove it! You'd be making it way to easy for the regionals and really the entire industry to continue the downward spiral.
So in response to your comment sharpeye, this is why I tell people what not to do. But to redeem myself I offer this:
You want to work for a regional for pennies? It's easy. You don't need 1000TT and sure as hell don't need turbine experience. You only need about 500-600 with 100 multi. Hell, Colgan and others have been known to take people with 50 or less multi. So, if you don't want to CFI (which is fine) then you don't have to spend 40K to Pay For your Training at Gulfstream or similar. Just build your time in a C152 and buy some multi PISTON time for an extra 5 grand. 250 hr of a C152 splitting the cost with someone under the hood is approx. $7500 plus the $5000 for ~50 hrs multi = $12,500 on top of whatever it took someone to get a commercial multi.
My commercial multi cost from 0 time = $26,0000. 26k plust the 12.5k above would get you 550 TT with 50 multi for $38,500 and you could secure yourself a crappy regioanl job.
Gulfstream, you pay 40k on top of the $26,000 cost for multi commercial. Now you can secure that crappy regional job for $66,000 and prove that you're willing to bend over and take it quietly by flying for an airline for $7 dollars an hour.

 

[de727ups]

"If you want to guarantee that your money is put into a WISE investment then GAA or CAPT is not the place. Also, those places undermine the industry."

You know CAPT is not accepting new students and ERAU is going to shut it down.

 

[mcjohn]

"If you want to guarantee that your money is put into a WISE investment then GAA or CAPT is not the place. Also, those places undermine the industry."

You know CAPT is not accepting new students and ERAU is going to shut it down.

Doesn't surprise me one bit. All these schools/companies want to jump on the Gulfstream band wagon and ultimately fail. Why? Probably because they don't have an airline that's part of their company. If there was a regional out there that was called Embry Riddle International it might have worked. Bunch of stupid, greedy bastards thought they could do it. I guess their contract with that big jet cargo company to provide Flight engineers was all a lie. Stupid greedy folks like to lie!

 

[de727ups]

"it amazes me that people fill these sites with so much negative information even when it is not asked, it's just volunteered I guess the posters would say. I agree there are schools out there that people should be weary of and stay away from. But if you don't know first hand about the school then you need to watch what you say."

Look. I don't need to visit Gulfstream any further than their website to understand it's wrong for someone to PFJ. It's bad for the industry. Worked for you, but how does paying for a job help us better this mess of an industry we are in? There are timebuilding programs where you aren't paying to rent a seat as a required crewmember like Gulfstream does. That would have served your purpose without encouraging PFJ.

People who disagree with the Gulfstream scheme need to speak out. Not sit by and wait for their opinion to be asked for lest it be deemed negative.

 

[BizPilot]

A Letter to the Industry

Wow!! I didn't think this letter was still around. I read this about 8 years ago when I was starting out......and I think it still applies.

MUST READ!!


​

http://www.propilot.com/aletter.html

 

[mcjohn]

Yeah, I know that letter very well. It's great.

Folks, just remember, like de727ups said....when you PFT your are buying your way into the right seat of an airline operation which is a "REQUIRED CREW MEMBER POSITION." Some companies have somehow found a way to get people to PAY THEM for a position that they are required to hire someone for. That's why they pay you 7$/hour to sit there. It's a dirty rotten way for the CEO or president of the company to buy his wife that new Jag. by cutting corners. It's purley principle and has nothing to do with "how fast you'll get turbine time and secure that airline job and upgrade quickly." Unless, you're selfish.