Strike Vote Called For at NetJets

[H. J. Simpson]

.....

 

[TonyC]

Straight from the Unions mouth this week. According to Teamsters National anyone flying QS CUSTOMERS will be flying struck work. Teamsters are in contact with the other unions about this work action and that it is properly rated with ALL UNIONS...meaning that there will be a clear line explained to everyone about who is and who is not a scab coming from YOUR union (if you have one).

Our local was the one that stated that charter guys would not be scabs...however, Teamsters national did some investigating and stated that they indeed would be.

Don't shoot the messenger.

Exactly, charter pilots have no union ... Yep, sounds like the work of your average Teamster to me (I'm a former member) ...

For the last time I'll ask someone to explain to me how this could possibly be enforced. Where will you get the names of these charter pilots? There's no way to make good on this threat.

Actually, hb25, this sounds like a fairly generic definition of "struck work" and "scab." If the pilots of a company legally withhold their services from their company as they are permitted under the self-help provisions of the RLA, any work that they would have done becomes "struck work." Anyone who performs that work becomes a "scab." There's really nothing to get all upset and emtional over -- that's just the facts.

Now, you have asked an excellent question about enforcement. I have no idea how this particular work group plans to undertake the task, but I can tell you about a few possible ways. Someone flying struck work might be met at the airport where passengers are enplaned or deplaned by an interested party. The pilots might be greeted in the hotel lobby by a friendly delegation of the striking workgroup to inform, educate, and record names. There are other ways, and while I'm not suggesting that any or all of them will or could be used, I want you to know that you NEVER know if you'll be able to get away with it. It's a personal choice, of course, to take the risk.

Guys,

The pilots who are, in the case of your strike, going to be flying your customers are the absolute best resource and weapon you will have! They are in direct face to face contact with the frax shareholders, and will no doubt be asked many questions from them about your situation. And yes, we know exactly who we are flying, and if they are NJ customers.

Viffer,

Do you not think the NJ pilots themselves have been in direct contact with these people? If you're flying struck work, you're not an "absolute best resource and weapon", you're a scab. Don't confuse yourself - - flying struck work does not make one an ambassador for the cause. What makes you think you've got better answers than the NJ pilots themselves? The customers don't care so much about answers to questions as they care about getting from Point A to Point B. If you get them there, you undermine the efforts of the NetJets pilots and you undermine the profession.

Here's a question I'd like you to consider: How would you answer when the "customer" asks, "How come NetJets pilots won't fly me from Point A to Point B, but you're 'OK' with it?"

 

[h25b]

Actually, hb25, this sounds like a fairly generic definition of "struck work" and "scab." If the pilots of a company legally withhold their services from their company as they are permitted under the self-help provisions of the RLA, any work that they would have done becomes "struck work." Anyone who performs that work becomes a "scab." There's really nothing to get all upset and emtional over -- that's just the facts.

Now, you have asked an excellent question about enforcement. I have no idea how this particular work group plans to undertake the task, but I can tell you about a few possible ways. Someone flying struck work might be met at the airport where passengers are enplaned or deplaned by an interested party. The pilots might be greeted in the hotel lobby by a friendly delegation of the striking workgroup to inform, educate, and record names. There are other ways, and while I'm not suggesting that any or all of them will or could be used, I want you to know that you NEVER know if you'll be able to get away with it. It's a personal choice, of course, to take the risk.

TonyC,

The following is an excerpt from a earlier post in which I have quoted directly the ALPA Master Scab List's definition of a Scab. If you can tell me how it relates to a 135 guy/gal flying a chartered NetJet's sell-off, enlighten me...

I charter guy/gal going to work flying anyone including NetJets is crossing NO line, not flying a QS tail, and simply doing what has always been done, AND something allowed under the current NetJets IBT labor agreement.

As for how they will find out who these "scabs" are... Well there's simply no way. I'd love for them to mistakenly confront our aircraft when our owner is on board . Like I said before, our aircraft is never used for NetJet's sell-off anyway, but others on the certificate are. After speaking with some of their crews I can tell you no one I have spoken with yet really gives a squat and will fly any trip assigned, NetJets or otherwise. The only thing the union is accomplishing by this is creating a ton of hostility towards themselves.

If the NetJets pilots walk there's no way the company will be able to cover the flying with sell-offs alone. IMPOSSIBLE ... At this point these passengers would just be out on the open charter market anyway. The union's position on this is pointless.

"A Scab is a person doing what you'd be doing if you weren't on strike.."

Not the case here...

"A Scab takes your job, a job he could not get under normal circumstances..."

Hardly the case here... A charter pilot would be doing the EXACT thing he/she was doing prior to any work action.

"He can only advance himself by taking advantage of labor disputes.."

He/She wouldn't be advancing himself at all. Again, doing the same thing he/she was doing before. By the way, our crews make almost 3 times the salary of a NetJets F.O.

 

[Viffer]

Viffer,

Do you not think the NJ pilots themselves have been in direct contact with these people? If you're flying struck work, you're not an "absolute best resource and weapon", you're a scab. Don't confuse yourself - - flying struck work does not make one an ambassador for the cause. What makes you think you've got better answers than the NJ pilots themselves? The customers don't care so much about answers to questions as they care about getting from Point A to Point B. If you get them there, you undermine the efforts of the NetJets pilots and you undermine the profession.

Here's a question I'd like you to consider: How would you answer when the "customer" asks, "How come NetJets pilots won't fly me from Point A to Point B, but you're 'OK' with it?"

First, you do not understand the labor issue if you still consider 135 operators flying NJ customers being scabs, so I am not going to get into an arguement about that. If NJ strikes and I am assigned a trip with their customers I will fly it the same as I would any other time.

Now, since you, I, and the whole rest of the world know that 135 pilots don't work for or answer to NJ on any level whatsoever, their passengers are not going to think twice about why I would fly them. They will have been certainly prepared by your management to think you guys are at fault. Would you not like an outside voice of support to help them see the light?

Also we talk to them as an unaffected third party, and can either help or hurt your cause with a couple of words. Would you not like us to help you guys out when we get the chance? I guess not if you would rather be out collecting our names and trying to screw our careers over your labor dispute. What would I say when they ask? What would you like me to say? I guess I will not mention anything on your behalf then when the time comes. Sorry.

For arguements sake let's say I refused to fly an assigned trip because it was for NJ. I would then instantly lose my job and be unemployed. Since I was a striker and not a scab what would your union do for me? Is this really so hard to understand? Your company, your airplanes, your union, your problem. 135 has nothing to do with your situation whatsoever, and as was also said earlier there is no way they could get enough charter availability anyway.

I fly a privately owned aircraft that is also listed on a local charter certificate. I do not answer to anyone but our owners, and frankly none of this is going to affect me at all but for the NJ pilots who have their heads clear I wish them the best. For the rest, who would rather go around tossing threats to the rest of the industry I hope you realize the full impact of your actions. I could care less about being an 'ambassador for your cause' as you put it, but I do want to see piloting regain the prestige and respect, and salaries that it should have. And like it or not if these stupid threats on the 135 guys are not put down by your union you ARE going to lose one very useful tool. You will have little or no direct influence on your customers compared with the PR assault your management most likely has had going, and you guys are going to need all the help you can get. Even if it's from 135 guys. Think about that.

 

[johnny taliban]

any work that they would have done becomes "struck work." Anyone who performs that work becomes a "scab."

So, if UPS goes on strike, FEDEX pilots will not fly brown boxes?? And even if you do not fly their boxes YOU have union protection. 135 guys do not. Using your logic, ANY airline pilot flying what would have been EASTERN passengers is a scab. Thats ridiculous.

Johnny

 

[niteflyr]

Funny you should mention UPS, they already went through all of this several years ago and YES they did say that any 135 charter outfits carrying UPS freight were to be considered scabs. I remember getting the 3rd degree from their picket line when reporting to work to carry US mail and explaining we were NOT carrying their boxes. Looks like it could be happening again there too, better head for the cargo board...


I am not condoning or agreeing with the latest definition of a scab, just showing it is not the first time it has come up.

 

[slowto250]

So, if UPS goes on strike, FEDEX pilots will not fly brown boxes?? And even if you do not fly their boxes YOU have union protection. 135 guys do not. Using your logic, ANY airline pilot flying what would have been EASTERN passengers is a scab. Thats ridiculous.

Johnny

Ridiculous yes, but I am still in the process of compiling the "master list". Working tirelessly since 1990, I figure in about 5-6 more years I will have identified all those ba$tards who flew my pax. The $hit is really gonna fly when I call all these scabs out.


Of course, most will be retired by then. The ones who are still breathing, I mean.

 

[buttercup]

As someone who has been on strike before, I just hope this is rumor about classifying 135 guys as scabs. What a bunch of **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED**ing bull**CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED**!! Scabs are what is at the top of Continentals seniority list, that's a **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED**ing scab!! So when some guy flying for a 135 outfit refuses to fly a trip and gets his asz fired I bet that the Union is going to pay for his legal representation and get him another job too RIGHT!! Keep it simple!! Nobody cross the line at Nutjets in event of a strike and this matter is then irrelevant!!

 

[johnny taliban]

Nobody cross the line at Nutjets in event of a strike and this matter is then irrelevant!!

Thats just it, who in their right mind would cross that picket line for those wages?

Answer:NOBODY

Its as if their union realized that NO ONE would cross their picket line and just to make themselves feel important, decided to threaten 135 drivers.

Johnny

 

[h25b]

Its as if their union realized that NO ONE would cross their picket line and just to make themselves feel important, decided to threaten 135 drivers.

Johnny

I can just visualize this decision ...

- "O.K. guys, when we strike it's going to be pretty embarassing if we can't find someone to call a scab... Any ideas ??? "

 

[Starman]

Guys,

The pilots who are, in the case of your strike, going to be flying your customers are the absolute best resource and weapon you will have!

I'm supposed to believe that a pilot flying for a charter company is going to tell our owners how great we are and that our demands are reasonable while flying struck work? Your post is laughable.

 

[h25b]

I'm supposed to believe that a pilot flying for a charter company is going to tell our owners how great we are and that our demands are reasonable while flying struck work? Your post is laughable.

I'll agree with you on that one. However, it's no more laughable than assuming ANY 135 guy/gal is going to give a #$it about this scab threat ...

 

[Viffer]

I'm supposed to believe that a pilot flying for a charter company is going to tell our owners how great we are and that our demands are reasonable while flying struck work? Your post is laughable.

Read the post genious. I said that we are a tool that can help or hurt you if you are smart enough to realize that. And the only pilots that will have any face time with your real bosses will be 135 pilots. Can you name any one else would even have the chance to say anything to those people? My point is that if you and your kind continue to toss around threats at us we will not support you in any way shape or form, and at that point in time you all will have no one pulling for you. What's laughable is that you and the few who keep up with this scab BS can't see that. After reading this I am done with this meaningless saga. If NJ goes down so much the better for the rest of the 91 world. It's just too bad that the majority opinion of your pilot group is so outshadowed by the few ignorant, closeminded and outspoken members like you. Adios amigo, I hope you enjoy your time trying to add my name to your 'list'.

 

[Fozzy]

Viffer,

Do you do sell off trips for NJA? And how many a month???

 

[Starman]

Read the post genious.

Your post would probably have more impact if you could at least spell genius correctly.

 

[Traderd]

I'll agree with you on that one. However, it's no more laughable than assuming ANY 135 guy/gal is going to give a #$it about this scab threat ...

This thread must represent the legendary "brotherhood" of pilots everyone keeps talking about. You know, the "brother/sister" references. One thread refers to someone's "Alaskan Brethern". There once was a saying concerning rank among Warrant Officers and virtue among whores. Seems it may apply to any "brotherhood" among pilots.

For an outsider, it is almost comical to see one group of employees threating another. Maybe McDonald's employees can organize and make a list of "scab" Burger King workers who dared serve struck work french fries to a customer who would have otherwise had to satisfy the craving under the golden arches.

Somehow it seems that if you can command more money, you would have it. If you can easily replace your income elsewhere, you would do it. If the company operates in an unsafe manner, you would leave it. Could be that some will do almost anything for the chance to be a "professional" pilot and as such, the struggle to dictate the price of your commodity becomes a very difficult task indeed.

Question for the NetJet guys; is there a shortage of qualified applicants for current positions at your company at the present time, given the pay and benefits offered? If so, I would guess you can write your own ticket. If not, you may not have such an easy time.

 

[Viffer]

Your post would probably have more impact if you could at least spell genius correctly.

Thanks for the correction.

I would like to thank all of those who have chosen to respond to these posts, who have helped me realize that your cause is not worth even as little effort as it takes to write these posts. You will all realize at some point that all pilots benefit from the gains of the different pilot groups in the industry. When a large pilot pool goes down there are negative effects throught each sector. Also when one group makes gains there are positives as well. Since you cant understand what I'm talking about here is the simple version: You all need as many friends as you can get right now, but you would rather make threats against those few you had. There are outside pilots who still wish you all the best but as of now I am not one of them. To actively foster such animosity towards those outside of your struggle is shortsighted and stupid. From this point I will stay out of your problem and not give it a second thought.

 

[TonyC]

It's really surprising that so many folks are taking an attempt to educate as "animosity." NO ONE wishes to label another pilot a "scab." Pilots would much rather have brother pilots stand together. Stand up for each other and you'll rise higher together. On the other hand, let your brothers down and it lets us all down.

If NetJets refuses to fly it, you should refuse, too. Make it easy on yourself - - if you think there's a chance, let your employer know where you stand now. The advance notice might prevent him from committing to something that he can't deliver. You don't want him to be put in a bind. The "Heads Up" could make the difference.


CHARACTER - - doing what's right even when nobody's looking.



You'll always have yourself to live with, so ... Whatever makes you happy ...


? ? ? ? ? ?


You'll know ...




.



.

 

[h25b]

NO ONE wishes to label another pilot a "scab."

Really ??? You seem to use the term pretty loosely .

On the other hand, let your brothers down and it lets us all down.

If NetJets refuses to fly it, you should refuse, too.

Please stop with the "brothers/sisters" stereo-typical tag line... It's really stupid.

Again, some people's ignorance of the 135/charter world is amazing...

CHARACTER - - doing what's right even when nobody's looking.

I for one need no character lessons from flightinfo.com, but thanks anyway.

You'll always have yourself to live with, so ... Whatever makes you happy ...

You at least got that one right ... But wait a minute, what about our "brothers?" Won't I always have them to live with as well ?

 

[Gulfstream 200]

Oh boy, not the pilot union Brother talk again...

Yeah...lets all be "Brothers"...

"Brothers" who happily took jobs at 1/3 of what they should have paid..

You got my support "Brother".

Im just thankful my real Brother would never fark me like my average fractional "Brother" has.

You guys have been bringing down the industry working for laughable wages for years, you volunteered for it - nobodys taking anything away from you...Now you want support from the industry YOU scabbed for the last 10 years?? You aint getting much aside from 4 or 5 clowns here and one nutty wife.

Scab list? Having Netjets on your resume is pretty much the same in the corp world anyways!


anyhow, just curious also,,...does a Fedex pilot stop flying packages that might have gone on UPS if his "Brothers" strike?....or is he a SCAB also? How does he sleep at night?
My guess...just fine.

 

[johnny taliban]

if you think there's a chance, let your employer know where you stand now. The advance notice might prevent him from committing to something that he can't deliver.

No offense,
but from looking at your profile it appears that you have never had to fly charter during your career. My employer,like many others on this board,does NOT care about my personal views concerning Netjets. They are in business to make money and if the phone rings for a charter quote the boss gives out the quote and I fly the trip. No questions asked. He gets the business, I fly the trip. If I refuse to fly I will be fired. Simple. Its easy to talk about "integrety" and "character" when you have union protection. Will you get fired if you refuse to fly UPS's boxes if they go on strike?

Johnny

 

[Starman]

Tony C -

Superb post. Let me amend that - outstanding post.

This is actually a simple issue. Pilots that climb into an aircraft for ANYONE and fly a trip carrying Netjets or Marquis owners contracted by Netjets during a legally authorized strike by Netjets pilots are flying struck work. Asking Netjets pilots to ignore that basic fact is absurd. If you are faced with that situation, you have a decision to make. You can stand behind Netjets pilots trying to make our industry a better place or you can do something else. That something else carries consequences.

The bottom line is that if our contract generates better pay and working conditions, those will travel through the 135 industry because your employers will fear losing valued employees to Netjets. We will have 5000 pilots within a few years. We will have a good contract. That demand will force other 135 companies to follow suit or lose pilots. Work with us now and you will reap the benefits. Fly struck work and reap what you sew.

 

[h25b]

The bottom line is that if our contract generates better pay and working conditions, those will travel through the 135 industry because your employers will fear losing valued employees to Netjets. We will have 5000 pilots within a few years. We will have a good contract. That demand will force other 135 companies to follow suit or lose pilots. Work with us now and you will reap the benefits. Fly struck work and reap what you sew.

Just when I thought it was impossible to surpass the foolish optimism of netjetwife. Are you sure you're not netjetwife's husband ???

This must be where netjetwife jumps in with my other favorite union knucklehead tag-line, "a rising tide lifts all boats..."

 

[Ace-of-the-Base]

Good for the Goose...

Pilots would much rather have brother pilots stand together. Stand up for each other and you'll rise higher together. On the other hand, let your brothers down and it lets us all down.

My boss is talking about selling one of our planes because we've asked for a raise and now he says the'll just sell the darn plane and have NetJets fill in the lift. If you guys say that you will refuse to fly a demo or any flight with my boss or his employees on board, I'm sure to do the same for you. You can all line up and PM me with your commitments.

Ace

 

[Ace-of-the-Base]

Tony C -

Superb post. Let me amend that - outstanding post.

This is actually a simple issue. Pilots that climb into an aircraft for ANYONE and fly a trip carrying Netjets or Marquis owners contracted by Netjets during a legally authorized strike by Netjets pilots are flying struck work. Asking Netjets pilots to ignore that basic fact is absurd. If you are faced with that situation, you have a decision to make. You can stand behind Netjets pilots trying to make our industry a better place or you can do something else. That something else carries consequences.

The bottom line is that if our contract generates better pay and working conditions, those will travel through the 135 industry because your employers will fear losing valued employees to Netjets. We will have 5000 pilots within a few years. We will have a good contract. That demand will force other 135 companies to follow suit or lose pilots. Work with us now and you will reap the benefits. Fly struck work and reap what you sew.

I can't speak for ALL of my 91/135 brothers, but the more posts like this we read the more we hope you FAIL!!! Yes, FAIL. I used to be on your side, but now I'm seeing what a selfish, self-righteous group of people you are. Starman, you should stay with a job with a union, because any corporate flight department (like ours) would can your a$$ in about 10 minutes.

The union does what you want, and the majority of you (not you Diesel) have made your position loud and clear. You want to make our lives harder, we'll respond in the same way, any chance we get.

Ace

 

[transpac]

anyhow, just curious also,,...does a Fedex pilot stop flying packages that might have gone on UPS if his "Brothers" strike?....or is he a SCAB also? How does he sleep at night?
My guess...just fine.

If any airline operates a flight in lieu of a UPS flight and carries UPS packages during a strike, the crew would definitely be scabs. Theres no way a Fedex crew would ever participate in such activity.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

I wouldnt let it get you THAT worked up....

They just have no basis, thus not much support...

Here is the summary:

"I was happy to take that job at 1/3 industry pay last year, but now Im furious at the big bad company, and I want Industry Pay -- or Im striking - my Union speaks for me!" "Were organized and Netjetwife is making cakes and manning the hotline"

Its farkin comical!

How does one support that?

Fellas, we never wanted you to take those wages, in fact, we hated it.

Good Luck

 

[Viffer]

I can't speak for ALL of my 91/135 brothers, but the more posts like this we read the more we hope you FAIL!!! Yes, FAIL. I used to be on your side, but now I'm seeing what a selfish, self-righteous group of people you are. Starman, you should stay with a job with a union, because any corporate flight department (like ours) would can your a$$ in about 10 minutes.

The union does what you want, and the majority of you (not you Diesel) have made your position loud and clear. You want to make our lives harder, we'll respond in the same way, any chance we get.

Ace

Very well said. Right now my co-pilot is entertaining another job offer, that he deserves, and I will be most likely looking for another pilot in the very near future. What do you NJ guys think the chances are that I will consider any of you after reading the idiocy of guys like Tony C and Starman? If the majority of you don't agree with their views then you need to make that known loud and clear to your representatives because you are eroding your support from the industry. Thanks, ace.

 

[johnny taliban]

Hell, at this point I thinking Im better off if these guys go ahead with the threat and p!ss everybody off in the corporate world. At least that will eliminate some of my competition for the better corporate jobs.

Interviewer: "So, your one of those Netjet scabs?"
Me: (nervously)"yeah,thats right."
Interviewer: "Me too! Congratulations, your hired!"

Johnny

 

[Gulfstream 200]

If any airline operates a flight in lieu of a UPS flight and carries UPS packages during a strike, the crew would definitely be scabs. Theres no way a Fedex crew would ever participate in such activity.

WHAT????

How are you going to know that I sent my box Fedex because UPS is on strike? Im still sending my package no matter what...how you going to know?

THATS THE POINT HERE...

Im not talking about hopping in the airplane and starting it up for UPS, Im talking about flying thier customers boxes. ITS THE SAME THING...

support your "brothers" ...my a$$....your going to be enjoying the increased revenue and profit sharing from moving more boxes. Thats a "Brother" for ya!