Strike Vote Called For at NetJets

[Viffer]

OK, Starman is not going to answer my question so I will answer it for him. Is an ALPA airline pilot going to be considered by the NJ pilots a scab if they fly NJ shareholders on an airline flight during a strike? They can't. They also can't answer this question because it disentegrates their whole idea that 135 pilots are scabs, for doing the exact same thing. Starman, you are a coward for not addressing this, and for tieing yourself so tightly to the party line that you would cough us up for your own benefit, without an ounce of concern for accuracy, or the well being of a whole other pilot group. So if you have a better answer to this question speak up, or admit your illogical line of reasoning and get real.

 

[Starman]

h25b,

If our efforts are such a non-issue because charter pilots will ignore them and they aren't worried about recall rights with ALPA, why get your panties in such a bunch? Obviously you must be concerned about it somehow otherwise you wouldn't be posting on this thread.

 

[Starman]

OK, Starman is not going to answer my question so I will answer it for him.

It was a non-sensical question and didn't deserve an answer. Still doesn't.

 

[johnny taliban]

Starman,
it really is a simple question.

 

[h25b]

h25b,

If our efforts are such a non-issue because charter pilots will ignore them and they aren't worried about recall rights with ALPA, why get your panties in such a bunch? Obviously you must be concerned about it somehow otherwise you wouldn't be posting on this thread.

Concerned ??? HARDLY... This is just entertainment, you know baiting some ignorant fool like yourself. Like G200, I find it particularly humorous that you got yourselves in to this mess and seem pretty desperate with this scablist idea. Furthermore, when faced with tough questions on the feasability of this plan of attack you get smacked down like a game of whack-a-mole...

Again I'll try... Who are these guys close to recall worried about screwing up their recall right ??? Delta, United, American, or USAirways... This would be great news for the guys in the Major's Forum ... No panties here (prefer briefs) ...

 

[Viffer]

It was a non-sensical question and didn't deserve an answer. Still doesn't.

It is soon to be a fact of your life and will have an answer regardless. You state that anyone flying shareholders during your strike are scabs regardless of the N number. Well, there are a lot of airline airplanes and crews that will have those shareholders on board. They also are flown by ALPA members. Should we call them and tell them that NJ expects them to refuse any line that has a share holder onboard, or face listing them on your precious scab list?

Of course you can't say that about your big brother ALPA. You are counting on that name to scare the 135 pilots and can't risk alienating them. Now, perhaps you can tell the class exactly what would be the difference between NJ setting their people up on a 121 flight vs a 135 flight?

I know you can answer this. Let's hear it.

 

[Starman]

Starman,
it really is a simple question.

So is "Why does the Porridge Bird lay its egg in the air?" but it has no meaning to this discussion.

 

[h25b]

but it has no meaning to this discussion.

No meaning to the discussion ??? Sir, it goes straight to the heart of your arguement, which is probably why you won't answer ...

 

[Viffer]

So is "Why does the Porridge Bird lay its egg in the air?" but it has no meaning to this discussion.

No, you can do so much better than that. Are you under a union rule not to ever say a word about airlines and scabs? I wouldn't be suprised. Why don't you man up and speak for yourself. This is an anonomous board. Whould you consider an airline pilot a scab or not? We already know your view of 135, and also all your arguements for that position. Your answer is clear as day but yet you can't say it out loud? What is your problem?

Oh, and this whole discussion, all 29 or so pages of it, is directly related to who is and who is not going to be viewed as a scab by you guys.

SPEAK!

 

[Starman]

OK Viffer ,

Since you won't be able to go beddy- bye until I break down a simple concept to you, I'll take the time to do it. An airliner flying a set route prior to a strike can pick up any and all passengers even if they were originally going to fly on the struck carrier because the route existed and the flight was there for other passengers. If the airline added additional flights to cover the demand after another carrier went on strike, those flights would be flying stuck work.

Same situation at Netjets. Airliner flying from ABC to XYZ every day. On June 20th, that airline gets two more passengers because Netjets pilots are on strike. Not struck work.

135 operator sitting on his thumbs gets a call on June 20th that we've gone on strike and they need him to cover a NetJets trip from ASE to PBI. Struck work.

 

[netjetwife]

Johnny, I've covered that in previous posts. The distinguishing factor is the PRIMARY PURPOSE of the flight. None of the airlines that may wind up w/NJ px in their first class sections are making that flight ONLY for them. Those flights are going to be flown regardless of whether or not a few NJ shareholders buy a ticket. On the other hand, flights that NJA ARRANGES with charter companies for the sole reason of flying NJ px, are replacing NJ pilots and are flying struck work. IF the NJ shareholdres make their OWN arrangements, as a separate transaction, then it will not be considered struck work.

 

[Viffer]

OK Viffer ,

Since you won't be able to go beddy- bye until I break down a simple concept to you, I'll take the time to do it. An airliner flying a set route prior to a strike can pick up any and all passengers even if they were originally going to fly on the struck carrier because the route existed and the flight was there for other passengers. If the airline added additional flights to cover the demand after another carrier went on strike, those flights would be flying stuck work.

Same situation at Netjets. Airliner flying from ABC to XYZ every day. On June 20th, that airline gets two more passengers because Netjets pilots are on strike. Not struck work.

135 operator sitting on his thumbs gets a call on June 20th that we've gone on strike and they need him to cover a NetJets trip from ASE to PBI. Struck work.

Well, he can talk! I was wondering what you would come up with in all that time. That was a nice little thought, but completely off base. By your logic, then because an airliner is not 'adding' anything extra then it is no scab. OK. A 135 operator then never adds anything, because they are on demand. So therefore any demand, heavy or light, is business as usual. No scab. You cannot argue 'scheduling' to determine strikebreaking. That is only a nice way for you guys not to have to call ALPA members strikebreakers. Your previous posts state your real thoughts, that any airplane regardless of tail number, flying your shareholders, is flying struck work. I could quote them but don't have the energy to backtrack the thread. By your thoughts, not your unions, any airline crews are scabs.

I walked the picket line with my Dad back in 85 with the United pilots. I am more aware of what scabs are than most, and the affects that a strike have on people and families. I am almost always sympathetic to the union members. Not one pilot I know, who have been on strike take the thought of 135 'scabs' seriously at all. They know exactly what 's what and so does the vast majority of this industry. People like you are so far off center that though it's been entertaining for the last hour playing around here, It is also very sad that those with your opinions are disgracing the overall membership of your union. I sincerely hope that whoever is running that union has a clear view of reality. If not then what should have been a good gig for pilots is going to fail. Seems like that is the fate of just about every union lead flight operation right now. I hope you guys survive everything alright, whatever the outcome. Goodnight...

 

[Starman]

What? No snappy repartè since I answered the idiotic question? Also no one picked up my reference to Firesign Theater. Disappointing. The world is going to hell in a hand basket. I guess I'll adjourn to bed as it's approaching the witching hour.

 

[Starman]

Well, he can talk! I was wondering what you would come up with in all that time.

Actually I was feeding my dog and grabbing a last drink of the evening. After all the whining, I thought I would take a few moments to explain a painfully obvious concept to you. It took about 2 minutes to type out and that was the extent of my in-depth thinking on it.

 

[netjetwife]

I didn't mean to be redundant, guys. I must have been typing my post at the same time. Perhaps you'll feel better hearing it from another pilot, anyway...

 

[TonyC]

So, if UPS goes on strike, FEDEX pilots will not fly brown boxes??

I thought the answer to this question was fairly obvious, but since several of you have asked, I'll spell it out.

N O​

If UPS is on strike, all freight moving in the UPS system becomes struck work. FedEx pilots will not move it.

How does that prevent a UPS customer from shipping his package by FedEx? It doesn't. When the customer walks through the door of a FedEx Service Center, he is a FedEx customer, and it's FedEx freight. There's no way I can go through an entire airplane examining each box and letter and determining who shipped it and whether it would have been shipped via UPS were they not on strike. That's ludicrous. However, it's a simple matter if the container is marked UPS.

It's not that complicated a concept, really. IF COMAIR strikes, Delta pilots don't fly COMAIR trips. If American Strikes, American Eagle doesn't pick up American flights. That doesn't prevent the customers from going to the Delta counter and buying a ticket on Delta mainline, nor does it prevent a customer from flying an Eagle leg. Of course, there's only so much capacity, so somebody might be left behind.

Likewise, if NetJets strikes, it would be considered flying struck work to fly a NetJets trip. Remember Viffer when he said,

And yes, we know exactly who we are flying, and if they are NJ customers.

Good. That makes it simple. You'll know exactly what you're doing, then.

Nothing prevents those customers from buying a ticket on JetBlue, Delta, or Southwest. Maybe that's what you should practice advising them.



.

 

[h25b]

I guess what we end up with here on both sides is a perpetual state of denial and what will be will be. People like myself and MANY others are being quickly turned off to the whole deal. I haven't run in to a single NetJets pilot yet that buys in to this idea anyway so this is what it is.... A hollow threat that will simply alienate the group as a whole from the rest of the general aviation community. If you choose to bury your head in the sand and ignore the basic fact that there's already a ton of ill-will out amongst the rest of said community, well go ahead...

Bottom line is that the Part 91 corporate guys have viewed you as scabs for years and I can pretty much guarantee this is going over like a fart in church with the 135 crowd (NOONE CARES, I CAN TELL YOU THIS FIRST HAND)...

So one last question from the brilliant minds of TonyC and Starman. Types like yourselves and netjetwife are asking for support from the rest of the aviation community while simultaneously threatening them. How's that work ??? Past experience would tell me that cozying up in support of you guys would be like asking the Boston Strangler for a neck rub.

I would really like to see your logic on this one explained. What we be in it for these 135 guys/gals to risk their jobs for your cause ??? Preferential interviews at NetJets ? Access to strike pay ? Hardly ... And please don't give me the "rising tide raises all boats" B.S., please ... This union tag-line makes me about as sick as your other old standby, "brother".

 

[Viffer]

Likewise, if NetJets strikes, it would be considered flying struck work to fly a NetJets trip. Remember Viffer when he said,

Good. That makes it simple. You'll know exactly what you're doing, then.
.

It really is that simple. I will be knowingly flying a customer just the same as I have been flying that same customer all along. NJ is a customer of ours, has been and will be in the future. I could really care less why they are booked with us, they will still get the service we provide. Your problem is a lack of understanding of the scope of your labor dispute. The corporate flying community does not revolve around NJ. Your sell off trips are already a revenue stream for 135. The fact that your pilots are on strike or taking days off matters not to me, or any 135 pilot. We fly our trips, as assigned, as always. Since you keep using freight as an example think about this. UPS, if on strike, would themselves send out all the packages they had when the strike took effect, and that would include all the other freight operators, charter freight operators etc. You, by your definitions are breaking the strike if you personally flew those boxes. It is no different with people instead of boxes. It is just so much easier for the simple minded to view 135 as scab activity, as they are not able to think through the whole issue for themselves and spew the union line to the T. This kind of attitude are also the reason you couldn't function in the 91 world. We have to care about our companies future, and everything we do is to promote a safe, stable, and profitable business. That we can do that and negotiate a real salary in the process is a testament to independent thinkers. Of which you are certainly not. Clear your head and get over the 135 issue. You will feel much better about life afterwards.

 

[Capt1124]

I have been around the aviation industry for long enough to have seen this thing a few times. You can't simply redefine what scabbing or strikebreaking is to suit your purposes in this situation. And all the chest puffing and threats don't really impress anyone. It just makes you look desperate and pathetic.

Maybe you should have looked for a better job instead of taking low wages and hoping the union would somehow get you the money you wanted.

Concentrate on negotiating a decent pay package rather than threatening people in a weak attempt to improve your leverage. Remember this will be over in a few months but the professional reputation of every NetJet pilot will be affected by this for years.

 

[pilotyip]

E Gads! another voice of reality, Capt 1124 don't you know you are not suppose to deal with reality on this board.

 

[G100driver]

Starman, you are a pu$$Y. Answer the question, "yes" or "no"

Are you going to put a current ALPA member who is flying 135 on the scab list if his is dispatched to fly a NJ trip? "yes" or "no"

So far your non-aswers about struck work bla bla are dodging the question. Me thinks that the IBT has zero clout on this issue and you are merly resorting to intimidating people. Perhaps you might have better luck with baseball bats.

While still supporting the NJ cause you sound like a fool.

 

[G100driver]

And current union members wonder why so many pilots are resistant to union shops.

If fools like starman did not make such idiotic statements perhaps places like JB, Flight Options and the like might be more open to collective bargaining. Your goal should be to show pilots what a strong group can do for the insdustry. Not going rouge and make un-substantiated statements that mearly erode the support that you have outside of NetJets.

Good luck anyhow, you guys desrve better than what you are getting ... even if fools represent you.

 

[prpjt]

If UPS is on strike, all freight moving in the UPS system becomes struck work. FedEx pilots will not move it.
How does that prevent a UPS customer from shipping his package by FedEx? It doesn't.
.

Tony, a serious question. Are you saying that UPS as a company would be denied becoming a Fed Ex customer? I think that's what you are saying.

I was just wondering, if this is the case, how your illustrious leader planned to carry out his plan to move boxes on pax carriers a few years back. Thanks.

Hope this isn't too much of a hijack.

 

[414Flyer]

Oh come on. Some of you are living in the past when words meant something and had specific meanings.

You are forgetting its a new touchy feely world, where words can mean anything you want it to be, meanings are flexible, with no real definitions if you dont think so. Its your feelings and emotions about it that are important. If you feel someone is a scab, thats all that matters anymore.

Its 2005, get with it

 

[LXJ31]

Let me get this straight, there will be list detailing who decided to keep paying their mortgage by flying an NJA sell-off, but where is the list for those who honored their strike by getting fired for not flying the same trip? Is that the part about the rising tide and goodwill etc.?

I think they are being short sighted on this issue; if such a strike occured and NJA started chartering left and right, the market forces would be the NJ pilots' best friend at that point. The supply of charter lift would dry up, the price would go through the roof and the unfortunate passengers would be getting scheduling windows measured in days, not hours. It would be a crushing expense. If NJ just stopped flying all together, they would lose customers, but they would be holding on to their cash. (I don't think that many customers would bolt as they'd be getting raped on the selling price if too many sold at the same time. They would buy 25-50 hour cards on the other operators.) On top of that, if normal NJ customers are not having their trips sold off, alot of those folks will fly First Class on 121 in the interim, they might decide its not so bad and worth the inconveniences relative to bizjet flying.

I'd like to see NJ pilots get paid more, but threatening pilots beyond arm's length fails, in my view, the cost-benefit.

 

[Boeingman]

This thread is like a car accident. You just have to stop and take a look.


G200, Johnny, Viffey, H25...I noticed they still can't answer some of your very simple direct, logical questions. G200 made a good point about taking pay at such a lower industry rate to begin with. It seems like a hypocritical point of view to be in a position now to demand help and honor a very flimsy position since lowwages at NetJets has affected the pilots they are now asking for support.

El Chup,I call BS on your story. 1) In our indoc and "familiarization" a.k.a penance tour, it was clearly made known to us that type of behavior would have serious consequnces up to termination. 2) There is no real surface animosity between the scabs and the "crawlbacks". The guys who returned, like myself came back knowing what the score was. 3) How did you get a jumpseat on CAL working for a frac company?

ALPA support? That has to be the funniest idea posted so far. ALPA can not even support it's own members, let alone you guys. I'm not sure who is pumping this union brotherhood, honor our line at all costs sunshine up your collective arse's, but you guys are seriously out of touch if you think a walkout would even be remotely successful. Take it from somebody that spent 25 long months on strike in an airline environment where the lines in the sand were, in theory, more defined. Those lines shift very rapidly the minute the picket line goes up. How about all those Delta pilots tripping over themselves to fly extra sections when Eastern Walked? What about our brothers at United in Denver or Eastern in Houston during our strike?

There are to many ways to circumvent your flying guys. To many pilots that have zero recourse if ordered to fly or protections if they refuse, to many pilots out of work (huge miscalculation in 1983 for CAL ALPA). Further, this is a bitter pill to swallow, you don't own the airplanes. That QS tail registration on the surface may seem like a benefit, but all that it takes is a simple transfer of the aircraft to a new corporation or sale of aircraft and you are SOL. Assuming the walkout even was able to withstand the test of time to allow that to happen.

I would just hate to see people throw their careers away for nothing. Well, I guess as G200 said for 1/3 of the industry rate anyway. To leave the cockpit in this environment is insane. Your efforts would be much better served to keep intense pressure on negotiations through all available means.

 

[G100driver]

Boeing, excellent reality check.

BTW I think Slowto250's post was sacasm directed that the ridiculous posts about scabbing ect.

 

[Boeingman]

Boeing, excellent reality check.

BTW I think Slowto250's post was sacasm directed that the ridiculous posts about scabbing ect.

Thanks.

After re reading his post, you are most likely right so I am going to edit that out.
I was getting a little cross eyed reading through all this. I guess that is what happens when your jaw has dropped to the point where it stretches the eye lids

 

[Gulfstream 200]

Boeingman - excellent post.

 

[h25b]

You're assuming that we don't know what screening method Netjets uses to approve vendor aircraft? You're assuming that we don't have access to the list of vendors that provide supplemental lift for Netjets? You're assuming that the screening information for those companies including pilot names isn't available to us?

I'm telling you that we have that info. How are your assumptions now?

Did everyone notice that Starman (a.k.a. Mr. Intelligence) deleted this post due to "drunken ramblings" ???

Perhaps some of his "brothers" are reigning him in a bit ?

Care to comment Starman ?