Stopping the slide

[Way2Broke]

WE ARE ALL DOOMED!!!!! DOOMED!!!!! I'm serious, and don't call me Shirley.

 

[fastbird]

NRPM the FAA does it all the time. It's the mechanism you're refering to and it's how the FAA internally makes changes to the FAR's.

We can lobby AOPA, ALPA, and other alphabet organizations for support too. It doesn't hurt to ask! And, it doesn't hurt to seek political clout.

The average bill doesn't generate even 1000 emails or phone calls from constituents to either call for support or call to reject the proposal. With 66,000 ALPA members plus Teamsters and APA...we should be about to get a couple hundred pings per member of congress.

It's worth a try. Things won't get better if we do nothing.

 

[Tarzan]

Here's one battle plan that ALPA hasn't indorsed and I don't hear about anyone else writing to congress over it.

Make Part 121 carriers have to hire to the same min standard at Part 135.
I've written my congressmen and senators. I'd challenge every Part 121 pilot worth their salt to do the same.

I guess ALPA would be more concerned about dues right now than down the road but if the pilot supply was tightened down considerably, wouldn't that drive the price of a pilot up?

I can bet that there are more than a few pilots out there that if they didn't have that short time in a pilot mill, they'd have never made it to the time required for 135 mins. And yes, I did have the time when I got hired at the regional level.

I guess I'll be writting a letter here shortly, to Duane, my congressman and senator.

 

[100LL... Again!]

Getting that strong political message is OUR job. If enough people BOTHER to write it will make a difference. We also have to put our limited dues paying pressure on ALPA to support the movement too.

True, this won't end the ability for someone to buy enough hours. But, it might provide a little help against SJS and the pilot mills.

Think Econ 101, when supply is high the price is lower. We have too many pilots willing to work for peanuts! That is a supply problem, just like our companies have a supply problem with over capacity and they can't raise ticket prices.

If you can't think of what to write, PM me and I'll send you a copy of what I composed.

FB

I have been saying this for a while. I'll do you one better - require an ATP to fly for an airline. And stop allowing incompetents pilots to get their ATP on a $900 weekend at a certificate mill.

ATP rides with FAA or Airline check airman only.

That certificate is WAY too wasy to get. It is meaningless.

 

[Tank Commander]

PCL 128,
Could you define "Agency Shop,"

 

[PCL_128]

PCL 128,
Could you define "Agency Shop,"

From wikipedia.com:

[SIZE=-1]Agency Shop - A place of employment where workers must pay union dues whether they are a member of a labor union or not. This mandatory payment is sometimes called the Rand formula. The first agency shop was established at the Ford Motor Company plant in Ontario, Canada, in 1946. [/SIZE]

 

[fastbird]

100LL...I agree with your assessment and that could very well be the next step. But, first...let's try and get some momentum behind a leveling of the standards that already exist.

 

[100LL... Again!]

You want to lower 121 to match 135? That can't be what you mean???

 

[Tank Commander]

So, whats the purpose? Revenue generator? Are all airlines with ALPA representation Agency Shops? and if not why? Who determines what airlines will be Agency Shops?

 

[fastbird]

Requiring 1200 TT to be hired as a 121 pilot just like a 135 pilot is lowering the 121 standard in what way? I use this section because all my Part 121 flying has been on an IFR flight plan.

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]FAA FAR 135.243c Operating Requirements[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]Certificate holders may not use a person, nor may any person serve, as pilot in command of an aircraft under IFR unless that person--[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica](1) Holds at least a commercial pilot certificate with appropriate category and class ratings and, if required, an appropriate type rating for that aircraft; and[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica](2) Has had at least 1,200 hours of flight time as a pilot, including 500 hours of cross-country flight time, 100 hours of night flight time, and 75 hours of actual or simulated instrument time at least 50 hours of which were in actual flight; and[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica](3) For an airplane, holds an instrument rating or an airline transport pilot certificate with an airplane category rating; or[/FONT]
(4) For a helicopter, holds a helicopter instrument rating, or an airline transport pilot certificate with a category and class rating for that aircraft, not limited to VFR.

 

[PCL_128]

So, whats the purpose? Revenue generator? Are all airlines with ALPA representation Agency Shops? and if not why? Who determines what airlines will be Agency Shops?

The purpose is simple: non-members shouldn't be able to get away with not paying dues when they directly benefit from the contract that ALPA negotiates and maintains. Agency Shop forces non-members to contribute to the cause that they benefit from.

No, not all ALPA carriers are agency shop. FedEx is a good example of an ALPA carrier that is not agency shop. Pinnacle wasn't either at first. Each MEC determines how they are going to set things up. Agency Shop is written in our current CBA in Section 29. Take a look.

 

[Tank Commander]

We didn't have unions in the military. That was called mutiny and they either shoot you or throw you under a prison some where. I think unions are great! We need one. But last time I looked everyone on the negotiation committee for our airline is a pilot at our airline. So in fact we negotiated our own contract. With I'm sure the watchful eye and legal reps. from ALPA all one or two of them that were assigned. All the money? it just doesn't add up. Hell they didn't even give us a Christmas party last year!

 

[PCL_128]

We didn't have unions in the military. That was call mutiny and they either shoot you or throw you under a prison some where.

Newsflash: you're not in the military anymore. Time to stop thinking like a grunt and start thinking like an Air Line Pilot that deserves respect and fair compensation for the position he holds.

I think unions are great! We need one. But last time I looked everyone on the negotiation committee for our airline is a pilot at our airline. So in fact we negotiated our own contract. With I'm sure the watchful eye and legal reps. from ALPA all one or two of them that were assigned. All the money? it just doesn't add up. Hell they didn't even give us a Christmas party last year!

I can assure you that it "all adds up." We receive far more money and services from ALPA than we pay in. Refer to Adrian's Climb and Maintain article from last year for more info about that. Our return on investment from ALPA is superb.

We don't just have "one or two" lawyers at our disposal as you think. We have a single Lawyer/Contract Administrator that deals with our day-to-day affairs, but a virtual army of lawyers is available when the need arises. Not to mention the aeromedical services, safety work, representation on CapHill, etc...

 

[Tank Commander]

[Newsflash: you're not in the military anymore.

No $hit a$$, cause if we were, you definitely would not be in the shape that you are in!
I'm glad to see you found an organization to belong to. It's important for one to feel part of something. I just wish you would have started with the boy scouts.

 

[Tank Commander]

PCL 128,
You did answer a lot of question for me tonight and I do appreciate it.
Good night bud, see you in DTW

 

[T-REX]

Newsflash!! Regionals suck as for paying a fair wage. Any dreams of this being a short-term job on your way to the majors has long past. Christ, I made twice your 1st yr FO pay flying seafood let alone 50+ people.

You've got to stand for something
or you'll fall for anything.

-Aaron Tippin

 

[Tank Commander]

t-rex,
Thanks for the info. now, on your way........

 

[T-REX]

Well do something about it rear admiral.

 

[Tank Commander]

rear admiral

I think thats navy, did a lot but not that.

 

[Lear70]

Newsflash: you're not in the military anymore. Time to stop thinking like a grunt and start thinking like an Air Line Pilot that deserves respect and fair compensation for the position he holds.

Easy killer...

Tank is on board, he's just trying to puzzle this whole thing out, which is ADMIRABLE. Most line pilots have no freakin' clue and couldn't tell you where to get a copy of the ALPA bylaws, much less have studied our contract. At least he's putting forth the effort.

... We receive far more money and services from ALPA than we pay in. Refer to Adrian's Climb and Maintain article from last year for more info about that. Our return on investment from ALPA is superb.

Not exactly. IF you have a problem and IF Legal or Aeromedical have to step in (and decide to do so in a constructive, aggressive way), then you most certainly get more out of your dues than you ever put in.

On the other hand, if you go through the airline life accepting whatever the company gives you without grieving things, get crap contracts handed to you with ALPA National handing the sh*t sandwich saying "Here, you'll like it", and never make it to a major where the REAL money from ALPA is spent, you'll have paid out in dues FAR more than you'll ever get out of it.

I have YET to have ANY of the 23 grievances I've filed at this airline EVER reimburse me a single d*mn penny lost. A large portion of that problem lies in the RLA, but some of it in failure of the CCC to follow-up on grievances or simpy drop them "because we'd spend too much money pursuing your individual grievance" without notifying me and allowing me to continue pursuing them on an individual basis.

There are dozens of horror stories about airline pilots who fly 20 years, keep to themselves, then have a problem, piss off their ALPA rep, and end up on the street after half-assed or ZERO representation by their reps (there's a LOT of lawsuits pending against ALPA for "failure to represent"). No matter what anyone tells you, the quality of representation you get is HIGHLY political, based on your rapport with your MEC. If I ever got into trouble here at PCL I'd hire my own attorney and use ALPA's money until it ran out then continue on my own dime. Almost every pilot who has done that here has gotten 6-digit settlements out of the company and their records cleared; those that relied on ALPA have been 50/50 win/lose.

ALPA isn't the end-all be-all of airline life; it needs a SERIOUS top-down housecleaning and reassessment of their long-term political and strategic goals.

As far as requiring an ATP to fly Part 121 even as an F/O - I've been saying that for years... Now to lobby D.C. I know who my reps are - I used to fly one of them in a Lear some years ago... Would love to see everyone else do the same!