Stopping the slide

[Lear70]

Hows does what you are proposing benefit the other players is this game? The Feds, The consumer, Management, etc.... You've got to convince everyone at the table that this is win-win-win-win for all....

It cannot, by definition, be a "win" for all... the low-experience pilots getting on with 250 hours are going to be "locked out" until the obtain the requisite time and experience.

I believe there would be enough data out there in the General Aviation world to substantiate low-time = higher accident risk (I can think of several right off-hand), and equate that with a few low-timer airline accidents / incidents, and push the issue up the food chain.

Don't rely on AOPA - 10% or better of their dues-paying members are low-time flight instructors trying to move up. You can guarantee they'd withdraw their support and membership money if AOPA started actively campaigning AGAINST the immediate achievement of their goals, and nothing speaks louder than money.

 

[Tank Commander]

1. The guys that are about to shaft the industry at NWA mainline are not kids! They, as far as I know, not GIA people either. 2. I've flown with some really $hitty Captains! They were old freight dogs. Waiting for that job with Fed-x. The best thing that will happen to 121 aviation, is the day they leave to fly at Fed-x. Procedurally they $uck, and professionally they suck. Your fighting with a shadow. This all goes back to the old fight of "it took me longer then it did him." Any Legislature that reads your wows is going to look at accident percentages. Death is the only thing that will change current rating procedures. I said this in my opening of the thread, "We as regional pilots are being used by management to destroy the jobs that we have worked so hard to one day attain." Figure out an answer for that.

PS. PHD.......when was the last time you wrote a thesis, apples and oranges.

 

[Lear70]

2. I've flown with some really $hitty Captains! They were old freight dogs. Waiting for that job with Fed-x. The best thing that will happen to 121 aviation, is the day they leave to fly at Fed-x. Procedurally they $uck, and professionally they suck.

I hope you're not talking about me... I'm an old "freight dog" waiting for that job at FedEx...

Your fighting with a shadow. This all goes back to the old fight of "it took me longer then it did him."

I'm not talking about that, I'm talking about the ERAU "Captain Program" that's currently here at PCL and other similar programs in years past kicking (mostly kids) straight into the pipeline who are HAPPY TO TAKE the wages that PCL starts pilots out at. That's the FIRST part of what's wrong in the equation. You mentioned a lot of other problems, but that IS the first step on the "dark path".

Any Legislature that reads your wows is going to look at accident percentages. Death is the only thing that will change current rating procedures.]/quote]
BINGO!

I said this in my opening of the thread, "We as regional pilots are being used by management to destroy the jobs that we have worked so hard to one day attain." Figure out an answer for that.

If you do, let me know... I've been trying to figure that one out here at PCL for coming up 5 years.

 

[Tank Commander]

Rich, as a professional pilot, I'd share a foxhole with you in the fight any day. Doesn't mean were gonna swap pit, hold hands and watch sunsets together!

 

[Lear70]

Rich, as a professional pilot, I'd share a foxhole with you in the fight any day.

Likewise!

"Doesn't mean were gonna swap pit, hold hands and watch sunsets together!"

Heartbreak Ridge... Classic!

 

[CoATP]

"The fault, Dear Brutus, is not in our stars but in ourselves." The industry allows pilots with minimum time (and less than minimum experience) to compete for jobs at whatever wage they will take. Passengers follow the lowest fare and wait for airfare wars. The pressure is to drive the cost down to match the price. All because of degregulation. Who benefitted? Consumers ... who travel cheaply (they do get what they pay for; however) If we can get the requirements up for regional jobs (PIC time ... kids- fly freight, fly 135 passenger, fly yourself if you have the $$) such that the pool is smaller then the wages will rise. Supply and demand! We need to reduce the supply by raising experience requirements. However, if an airline could advertise its pilots as more experienced would the passenger be willing to invest $$ in higher fares to get that experience? I don't know. If they are not ... then indeed we are doomed to the lowest wages. What we need to insure is that if fares rise then a fair proportion goes to those that make it possible.

 

[Lear70]

If we can get the requirements up for regional jobs (PIC time ... kids- fly freight, fly 135 passenger, fly yourself if you have the $$) such that the pool is smaller then the wages will rise. Supply and demand! We need to reduce the supply by raising experience requirements.

Bingo!

However, if an airline could advertise its pilots as more experienced would the passenger be willing to invest $$ in higher fares to get that experience?

No. The pax doesn't give a rat's a*s until airplanes start crashing... then they BRIEFLY wonder about experience and ability, then the pocket book and statistics on being in an aircraft accident start talking again.

If they are not ... then indeed we are doomed to the lowest wages. What we need to insure is that if fares rise then a fair proportion goes to those that make it possible.

That's the SECOND problem. The first is supply of pilots willing to work for a low wage.

The second is the pilots not willing to "draw a line in the stand" and stop taking concessions, even if the airline fails and goes under. No one wants to be the mook to "take one for the team".

The third is the problem of companies refusing to raise prices to match costs, INCLUDING pilot costs.

We can't do anything about problem #3, we CAN do something about problem #2, and we can TRY to do something about problem #1...

 

[CoATP]

The first to raise prices is the first to lose. How many times have fare hikes not been matched and then rescinded? I think the last one to "take one for the team" was Oliver North. How do you convince a starry eyed pilot with shiny jet syndrome to spend some time putting around in bad weather in a piston twin for $100 a day and explain its the same as they'ed get in an RJ and the Pilot experience is better. The desire for the cockpit door, a good heater, a/c, and a button to ask for (and not get) coffee is too strong. Without the requirement to get the experience (can you say FEDS) the line to voluntarily fly airplanes older than the pilot will be pretty short.

 

[Tank Commander]

From the side you are fighting, I can see your point. However your theory is seriously flawed. Less experienced pilots are not what caused deregulation, It is a product of deregulation. Will people pay the price for experience, oh ya, over at SWA, Jetblue etc. etc.. Where the ticket price remains low.

to compete for jobs at whatever wage they will take.

Well, thats what they are all hiring at hero!

Supply and demand!

If you have not noticed does not apply to this industry.

 

[CoATP]

Deregulation did not cause salaries to drop. Dereg was 1978. When supply increased ("hey guys lets start an airline") and competition was based on $$ the cost dropped. People who think they can make a small fortune in the airline business (requirement .. start with a large one) look to reduce cost with the widest possible impact a) fuel hedging -- but that requires cash or b) labor costs. Where are the biggest labor costs -- flight crews. Management costs are just blatant and ugly but not large in the overall scope of things. Labor costs go down because there are too many pilots chasing too few jobs that pay well (supply and demand again) Reduce the pool of pilots? How? Voluntarily? -- WHen porcine aviate! Raise experience required by FAR? Possibly.