• NC Software is proud to announce the release of APDL - Airline Pilot Logbook version 10.0. Click here to view APDL on the Apple App store and install now.

Stopping the slide

Tank Commander

Jim "Tank Daddy" Bizzell
Joined
Jun 29, 2004
Posts
240
Total Time
20yr.
I’m not a business major nor a very smart guy, but I’ve study the art of war for 20yrs. Alpa has done a good job trying to hold thing together over the past 7 years. I’ve only been a member for the last two of them. We all at the regional level have seen whipsawing of pilot groups. The out sourcing has began. Ramp workers, A/C cleaners, Mechanics, and now Flight Attendants. You say “but we are not being out sourced “. Yes we are. We, regional pilots are being used to outsource mainline pilot jobs. It’s ugly but true. The careers we work so hard for are the ones that managements are using us to destroy. That is unlit managements figure out a way to train and hire 3rd world pilots that will fly for $10.00hrs, and I’m sure they are looking in to it. In the future the major carriers will be nothing but a name, and an IPO on wall street racking in big profits off low paid labor. We as regional pilots need to find a way to stop the slide. I’ve heard in the past of talk of a regional pilots union. The whipsawing must stop. We are fighting a civil war amongst ourselves. We all just want to work in a career field we love. Alpa had its problems serving two masters. One master was bigger and paid more. Its interest came first. Just nature of the beast. If regional pilots don’t unit under one banner together it will continue. We hold one big card in our hands. We are the now and future answer to the LCC for the legacy airlines. Under one union, we can protect each other and our jobs. One union that can say that is struck work don’t fly it. Right now we have nothing. The legacy carrier we fly under will just bring in another regional that is cheaper to do the flying. Apla doesn’t seem to care or are fighting bigger battles somewhere else. We need to stand, and stand soon.
 
Last edited:

Rez O. Lewshun

Save the Profession
Joined
Jan 19, 2004
Posts
13,422
Total Time
X>X
Did someone get pensive during cruise? Great initial observations..... do some more research... the issues are very complex, difficult and fustrating....

Of course, you can find quick, instant gratification style answers on flight info..... problem is..nothing changes...
 

Lear70

JAFFO
Joined
Oct 17, 2003
Posts
7,487
Total Time
4abeer
Tank Commander said:
I’m not a business major nor a very smart guy, but I’ve studied the art of war for 20 yrs. Alpa has done a good job trying to hold things together over the past 7 years; I’ve only been a member for the last two of them. We all at the regional level have seen whipsawing of pilot groups. The outsourcing has begun.

ALPA doesn’t seem to care or are fighting bigger battles somewhere else. We need to stand, and stand soon.
You are exactly right. One major problem: your "soldiers" have to realize that they are actually "at war"...

Most regional pilots do NOT have that mentality... they're just 'happy to be here' and have some vague idea that their lives COULD be better.
 

Master Shake

Number 1 in the hood!
Joined
May 18, 2005
Posts
377
Total Time
+6000
So how do we do this? How do we get enough regional pilots pissed off enough to form our own union? How do we get away from ALPA? I'm very interested.
 

LoweringTheBar

Living the dream!
Joined
Nov 4, 2005
Posts
7
Total Time
some
But guys, this is just a temporary cyclical correction. We will all be at the majors in a few years when things work themselves out. Me personally, I'm still hanging on to my United scantron form that a friend gave to me a few years ago so I can be the first in line when they start to hire again. I did not get into flying to fly for a regional my entire career. I hope that you too have the same feeling and want to get on with a major like you and I have always dreamed of and flying the big iron across the pond.
 

Way2Broke

Member
Joined
Feb 24, 2005
Posts
2,882
Total Time
4500
LoweringTheBar said:
But guys, this is just a temporary cyclical correction. We will all be at the majors in a few years when things work themselves out. Me personally, I'm still hanging on to my United scantron form that a friend gave to me a few years ago so I can be the first in line when they start to hire again. I did not get into flying to fly for a regional my entire career. I hope that you too have the same feeling and want to get on with a major like you and I have always dreamed of and flying the big iron across the pond.

Where is the poster in your avitar located at? I would love to have my picture taken with it.
 

Lear70

JAFFO
Joined
Oct 17, 2003
Posts
7,487
Total Time
4abeer
I'm not saying that divorcing ALPA is the way to go. If you're really interested in that route go visit www.rjdc.org and you will have enough anti-ALPA rhetoric to have you questioning things.

What they DON'T mention is the things they don't mention in ALPA meetings:

1. If your carrier goes on strike, where does the money come from to pay strike benefits, pay the bills of the strike center, get negotiators to and from negotiations, etc?

2. Fighting grievances and company problems takes lawyers and that takes money. What happens if you run low on money for a month or two?

3. ALPA spends HUGE amount of money in D.C. trying to lobby politicians to avoid things that corporate airline management groups keep trying to slide by and fighting for things such as better rest and duty provisions, better pension laws, etc. What happens when ALPA sees another group of pilots as "the enemy" and has hundreds of millions of dollars to spend in lobbying against regional pilots?

Not as simple as "forming our own union"... and that's just a few of the more obvious items.
 

Rez O. Lewshun

Save the Profession
Joined
Jan 19, 2004
Posts
13,422
Total Time
X>X
Master Shake said:
So how do we do this? How do we get enough regional pilots pissed off enough to form our own union? How do we get away from ALPA? I'm very interested.

Why do you need to form your own union?

Why do you need to get away from ALPA?

I'm not saying you should or shouldn't, but you need a in depth understanding of what the (real) problem is, how the system works, what pragmatic solutions are out there and HOW will you go about getting it done.


First, you suggesting to "get enough regional pilots" together. How will that be done? How will you get organized?
 

WhiteCloud

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 20, 2002
Posts
1,012
Total Time
4,000
No one pilot group has the cahones to actually strike or require airline management to abide by agreements. That's the problem. Too much empty sabre rattling and little to no action.
 

fastbird

Violated again?!?
Joined
Oct 1, 2003
Posts
184
Total Time
5000+
Striking is the frontal attack that won't win public support.

Here's one battle plan that ALPA hasn't indorsed and I don't hear about anyone else writing to congress over it.

Make Part 121 carriers have to hire to the same min standard at Part 135. That 1200 hour requirement would end the puppy mill production of new SJS infected pilots and help end the over supply of pilots willing to work for peanuts just so they can fly a jet.

We aren't going to stop a pilot mill from advertising the looming pilot shortage that's been going on for 20 years. But, we can plead our case to the FAA and congress to make real change.

I've written my congressmen and senators. I'd challenge every Part 121 pilot worth their salt to do the same.
 

Lear70

JAFFO
Joined
Oct 17, 2003
Posts
7,487
Total Time
4abeer
I don't know if that will really stop it or not. I'd like to BELIEVE that 1,200 or even 1,500 would keep someone from doing it, but I have an bad feeling that if Mommy and Daddy have $100,000 to throw at your career, why not Gulfstream or somewhere else that flies 1900's back and forth to the islands at $50 an hour for 1,000 hours?

They already pay $25,000 - what's another $25,000 if they get where they want to be? I'm sure it would elliminate a few "fence sitters" who can't decide if the money is worth it, but I'm sure there'd still be enough supply to keep compensation depressed.

Speaking of which, supply isn't the only problem; the other is lack of income for the airlines for a pilot group to really put their foot down and strike over a substandard compensation package. It's here at PCL, but for how long? When NWA renegotiates our ASA it could cut us right to the bone for profitability.

Comair is already feeling it, as are others...

p.s. I don't give a flying fu*k's rat's a*s whether the "public" has any sympathy for our strike or not. I care about whether our affiliate tail colors will support it (at PCL I'm referring to NWA and Mesaba - the other red-tails). If they support us and it shuts NWA down until resolved, you'd see quite quickly how fast mgmt would come around (forced to deal rather than lose the ASA).

The passengers will come back when the fares are the cheapest to where they're going, regardless of any work action they were subjected to "last time they flew us".
 

Rez O. Lewshun

Save the Profession
Joined
Jan 19, 2004
Posts
13,422
Total Time
X>X
fastbird said:
Striking is the frontal attack that won't win public support.

Here's one battle plan that ALPA hasn't indorsed and I don't hear about anyone else writing to congress over it.

Make Part 121 carriers have to hire to the same min standard at Part 135. That 1200 hour requirement would end the puppy mill production of new SJS infected pilots and help end the over supply of pilots willing to work for peanuts just so they can fly a jet.

We aren't going to stop a pilot mill from advertising the looming pilot shortage that's been going on for 20 years. But, we can plead our case to the FAA and congress to make real change.

I've written my congressmen and senators. I'd challenge every Part 121 pilot worth their salt to do the same.

HOW!! How are you going to get 121 and 135 to the same standard...

It's great that you write your legislators. They can easily write one guy off. How about a strong unified political message....??

Lot's of great ideas, but the HOW never seems to be addressed...
 

fastbird

Violated again?!?
Joined
Oct 1, 2003
Posts
184
Total Time
5000+
Getting that strong political message is OUR job. If enough people BOTHER to write it will make a difference. We also have to put our limited dues paying pressure on ALPA to support the movement too.

True, this won't end the ability for someone to buy enough hours. But, it might provide a little help against SJS and the pilot mills.

Think Econ 101, when supply is high the price is lower. We have too many pilots willing to work for peanuts! That is a supply problem, just like our companies have a supply problem with over capacity and they can't raise ticket prices.

If you can't think of what to write, PM me and I'll send you a copy of what I composed.

FB
 
Last edited:

Rez O. Lewshun

Save the Profession
Joined
Jan 19, 2004
Posts
13,422
Total Time
X>X
fastbird said:
Getting that strong political message is OUR job. If enough people BOTHER to write it will make a difference. We also have to put our limited dues paying pressure on ALPA to support the movement too.

True, this won't end the ability for someone to buy enough hours. But, it might provide a little help against SJS and the pilot mills.

If you can't think of what to write, PM me and I'll send you a copy of what I composed.

FB

Why not post it here..... Many don't know how to even do this.....

Getting a strong political message is our job..agreed.....!!

How?

Learning Air Line Pilot History.
Developing a relationship with your LEC/MEC reps.
Attending LEC meetings.
Giving to ALPA/APA-PAC.

I know this is boring stuff but it is how things get done...
 

threegreen

Mmmm, I look good.
Joined
Jul 4, 2005
Posts
314
Total Time
.
we work in an industry that does not raise wages but instead lowers the minimum qualifications for the job when applicants run thin...

nothing useful to add just venting.
 

fastbird

Violated again?!?
Joined
Oct 1, 2003
Posts
184
Total Time
5000+
Excellent point and that's why we all need to take five minutes and log onto both of these sites and take a political stand.

www.house.gov and www.senate.gov

Just input your zip code and it will bring up your political hack's web link and from there you can pen your note.

Not that many years ago, ALPA was on board with "One Level of Safety" regarding the differences in maintenance standards between Part 121 and Part 135 Scheduled Air Service. That push brought many companies to Part 121 standards.

Now, we must complete that task and bring one standard of experience to the cockpit. Will there be scammers and log book padders? Probably; but they already exist so there is no expectation that they will go away either. Will there be rich daddies who can buy all the flight time little precious needs to meet the minimum? Sure and they were lucky to be born into that situation.

Am I frustrated? Yep. Is this my way of venting? You damn skippy it is.

Now, let's get some pilots organized and make a difference. If we do nothing, then nothing will change.
 

Rez O. Lewshun

Save the Profession
Joined
Jan 19, 2004
Posts
13,422
Total Time
X>X
fastbird said:
Excellent point and that's why we all need to take five minutes and log onto both of these sites and take a political stand.

www.house.gov and www.senate.gov

Just input your zip code and it will bring up your political hack's web link and from there you can pen your note.

Not that many years ago, ALPA was on board with "One Level of Safety" regarding the differences in maintenance standards between Part 121 and Part 135 Scheduled Air Service. That push brought many companies to Part 121 standards.

Now, we must complete that task and bring one standard of experience to the cockpit. Will there be scammers and log book padders? Probably; but they already exist so there is no expectation that they will go away either. Will there be rich daddies who can buy all the flight time little precious needs to meet the minimum? Sure and they were lucky to be born into that situation.

Am I frustrated? Yep. Is this my way of venting? You dang skippy it is.

Now, let's get some pilots organized and make a difference. If we do nothing, then nothing will change.

I will say it was much easier to bring one exisiting regulation into another existing regulation......

What you are suggesting is creating a regulation. In addition, you are dealing with market forces...something that America holds dear as unbridled. I think the better way to go about your efforts is create tougher training criteria. If it weren't so easy then the mid life shoe store manger who is having a crisis won't get here so fast....
 

Tank Commander

Jim "Tank Daddy" Bizzell
Joined
Jun 29, 2004
Posts
240
Total Time
20yr.
I have question for someone who is alpa and union savvy. I was in my opps the other day listing to a conversation between two pilots. One was unhappy about alpa and made the comment that he was ready to tear up his membership. The other pilot made a statement that kind of confused me. He said it didn't matter because they would still take their dues out of his check.
Is that true? and if they do still take dues out of your check what are you paying for when you are not a represented member? Just curious.
 

PCL_128

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 21, 2002
Posts
15,296
Total Time
5000+
Tank Commander said:
I have question for someone who is alpa and union savvy. I was in my opps the other day listing to a conversation between two pilots. One was unhappy about alpa and made the comment that he was ready to tear up his membership. The other pilot made a statement that kind of confused me. He said it didn't matter because they would still take their dues out of his check.
Is that true? and if they do still take dues out of your check what are you paying for when you are not a represented member? Just curious.

Pinnacle is an "Agency Shop," meaning that you are required to at least pay "contract maintenance fees" to remain employed. The fees are virtually identical to the standard dues you pay as a member, so it doesn't save you any money to not be an ALPA member. Some of the more senior MEM pilots are not members because they left the union years ago as a form of "protest."

Basically, you are free to work at Pinnacle without being an ALPA member, but you still have to pay because you work under the contract that ALPA works hard to negotiate and maintain. If you fail to enroll in dues checkoff and don't pay anything, then you will eventually be removed from the seniority list and terminated as a result.
 
Top