Stopping the slide

[Lear70]

Hows does what you are proposing benefit the other players is this game? The Feds, The consumer, Management, etc.... You've got to convince everyone at the table that this is win-win-win-win for all....

It cannot, by definition, be a "win" for all... the low-experience pilots getting on with 250 hours are going to be "locked out" until the obtain the requisite time and experience.

I believe there would be enough data out there in the General Aviation world to substantiate low-time = higher accident risk (I can think of several right off-hand), and equate that with a few low-timer airline accidents / incidents, and push the issue up the food chain.

Don't rely on AOPA - 10% or better of their dues-paying members are low-time flight instructors trying to move up. You can guarantee they'd withdraw their support and membership money if AOPA started actively campaigning AGAINST the immediate achievement of their goals, and nothing speaks louder than money.

 

[Tank Commander]

1. The guys that are about to shaft the industry at NWA mainline are not kids! They, as far as I know, not GIA people either. 2. I've flown with some really $hitty Captains! They were old freight dogs. Waiting for that job with Fed-x. The best thing that will happen to 121 aviation, is the day they leave to fly at Fed-x. Procedurally they $uck, and professionally they suck. Your fighting with a shadow. This all goes back to the old fight of "it took me longer then it did him." Any Legislature that reads your wows is going to look at accident percentages. Death is the only thing that will change current rating procedures. I said this in my opening of the thread, "We as regional pilots are being used by management to destroy the jobs that we have worked so hard to one day attain." Figure out an answer for that.

PS. PHD.......when was the last time you wrote a thesis, apples and oranges.

 

[Lear70]

2. I've flown with some really $hitty Captains! They were old freight dogs. Waiting for that job with Fed-x. The best thing that will happen to 121 aviation, is the day they leave to fly at Fed-x. Procedurally they $uck, and professionally they suck.

I hope you're not talking about me... I'm an old "freight dog" waiting for that job at FedEx...

Your fighting with a shadow. This all goes back to the old fight of "it took me longer then it did him."

I'm not talking about that, I'm talking about the ERAU "Captain Program" that's currently here at PCL and other similar programs in years past kicking (mostly kids) straight into the pipeline who are HAPPY TO TAKE the wages that PCL starts pilots out at. That's the FIRST part of what's wrong in the equation. You mentioned a lot of other problems, but that IS the first step on the "dark path".

Any Legislature that reads your wows is going to look at accident percentages. Death is the only thing that will change current rating procedures.]/quote]
BINGO!

I said this in my opening of the thread, "We as regional pilots are being used by management to destroy the jobs that we have worked so hard to one day attain." Figure out an answer for that.

If you do, let me know... I've been trying to figure that one out here at PCL for coming up 5 years.

 

[Tank Commander]

Rich, as a professional pilot, I'd share a foxhole with you in the fight any day. Doesn't mean were gonna swap pit, hold hands and watch sunsets together!

 

[Lear70]

Rich, as a professional pilot, I'd share a foxhole with you in the fight any day.

Likewise!

"Doesn't mean were gonna swap pit, hold hands and watch sunsets together!"

Heartbreak Ridge... Classic!

 

[CoATP]

"The fault, Dear Brutus, is not in our stars but in ourselves." The industry allows pilots with minimum time (and less than minimum experience) to compete for jobs at whatever wage they will take. Passengers follow the lowest fare and wait for airfare wars. The pressure is to drive the cost down to match the price. All because of degregulation. Who benefitted? Consumers ... who travel cheaply (they do get what they pay for; however) If we can get the requirements up for regional jobs (PIC time ... kids- fly freight, fly 135 passenger, fly yourself if you have the $$) such that the pool is smaller then the wages will rise. Supply and demand! We need to reduce the supply by raising experience requirements. However, if an airline could advertise its pilots as more experienced would the passenger be willing to invest $$ in higher fares to get that experience? I don't know. If they are not ... then indeed we are doomed to the lowest wages. What we need to insure is that if fares rise then a fair proportion goes to those that make it possible.

 

[Lear70]

If we can get the requirements up for regional jobs (PIC time ... kids- fly freight, fly 135 passenger, fly yourself if you have the $$) such that the pool is smaller then the wages will rise. Supply and demand! We need to reduce the supply by raising experience requirements.

Bingo!

However, if an airline could advertise its pilots as more experienced would the passenger be willing to invest $$ in higher fares to get that experience?

No. The pax doesn't give a rat's a*s until airplanes start crashing... then they BRIEFLY wonder about experience and ability, then the pocket book and statistics on being in an aircraft accident start talking again.

If they are not ... then indeed we are doomed to the lowest wages. What we need to insure is that if fares rise then a fair proportion goes to those that make it possible.

That's the SECOND problem. The first is supply of pilots willing to work for a low wage.

The second is the pilots not willing to "draw a line in the stand" and stop taking concessions, even if the airline fails and goes under. No one wants to be the mook to "take one for the team".

The third is the problem of companies refusing to raise prices to match costs, INCLUDING pilot costs.

We can't do anything about problem #3, we CAN do something about problem #2, and we can TRY to do something about problem #1...

 

[CoATP]

The first to raise prices is the first to lose. How many times have fare hikes not been matched and then rescinded? I think the last one to "take one for the team" was Oliver North. How do you convince a starry eyed pilot with shiny jet syndrome to spend some time putting around in bad weather in a piston twin for $100 a day and explain its the same as they'ed get in an RJ and the Pilot experience is better. The desire for the cockpit door, a good heater, a/c, and a button to ask for (and not get) coffee is too strong. Without the requirement to get the experience (can you say FEDS) the line to voluntarily fly airplanes older than the pilot will be pretty short.

 

[Tank Commander]

From the side you are fighting, I can see your point. However your theory is seriously flawed. Less experienced pilots are not what caused deregulation, It is a product of deregulation. Will people pay the price for experience, oh ya, over at SWA, Jetblue etc. etc.. Where the ticket price remains low.

to compete for jobs at whatever wage they will take.

Well, thats what they are all hiring at hero!

Supply and demand!

If you have not noticed does not apply to this industry.

 

[CoATP]

Deregulation did not cause salaries to drop. Dereg was 1978. When supply increased ("hey guys lets start an airline") and competition was based on $$ the cost dropped. People who think they can make a small fortune in the airline business (requirement .. start with a large one) look to reduce cost with the widest possible impact a) fuel hedging -- but that requires cash or b) labor costs. Where are the biggest labor costs -- flight crews. Management costs are just blatant and ugly but not large in the overall scope of things. Labor costs go down because there are too many pilots chasing too few jobs that pay well (supply and demand again) Reduce the pool of pilots? How? Voluntarily? -- WHen porcine aviate! Raise experience required by FAR? Possibly.

 

[Tank Commander]

I can see your point from the bottom side. But I'm as you are trying to go up. The NWA proposal of salary cuts doesn't fit into your fix. What will? Got to get to bed gots be in dtw tomorrow. I'll read your reply tomorrow thanks for the exchange. good night.

 

[fastbird]

...
Hows does what you are proposing benefit the other players is this game? quote]

You must not follow most political advances. It's not about playing fair. It's not about satisfying the majority. It's not even about creating a win-win situation. It's all about getting something for the greater good.

BTW, that last blip about the newbie CFI's was not emotional for me but maybe for some folks who read it. IT was just pure and simple flame bait.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

...
Hows does what you are proposing benefit the other players is this game?

You must not follow most political advances. It's not about playing fair. It's not about satisfying the majority. It's not even about creating a win-win situation. It's all about getting something for the greater good.

BTW, that last blip about the newbie CFI's was not emotional for me but maybe for some folks who read it. IT was just pure and simple flame bait.

OK, if you aren't going to propose a change that is attrative to most... Then how are you going to cram it down anyone or everyone throat?

Flamebait....and I thought you knew what you were talking about...

 

[fastbird]

The best flame bait comes from those who know how to spin the truth to elicit the strongest response.

It doesn't matter if the masses want something...it only matters if the people in a position to make it happen want it to happen.

Ergo, we have to solicit their help and support.

 

[filejw]

It funny to read all this if it wasn't so sad.The only way to control wages is if we are all on the same page.Make sure all the airlines have the same costs for pilots.How thats done,well who knows but it must be done or the wip saw will continue.A national contract is my anwser but others may have a better idea.

 

[Lear70]

The only way to control wages is if we are all on the same page.Make sure all the airlines have the same costs for pilots.How thats done,well who knows but it must be done or the wip saw will continue.A national contract is my anwser but others may have a better idea.

That idea has been floated before, too.

Certainly ALPA could control such a thing, since they have to sign off on ANY T.A. before it can be implemented. All they would have to do would be to set "minimum pilot wages" and not allow anything LESS to be signed. Period.

That being said, the "all they would have to do" part is a LOT. You have to take into account some airlines simply can't AFFORD the pilot pay that, say, FedEx can. As a matter of fact, NO ONE can except for FedEx and UPS...

Seriously though, I don't believe that setting THE EXACT wage every airline must pay, for instance, a 737 driver would work - too much other contract dynamics. But I CERTAINLY DO agree in a "Minimum" wage for each aircraft implemented by ALPA National.

Unfortunately, I believe I'm in the minority when it comes to people who actually GET INVOLVED in ALPA's system within their airline.

 

[fastbird]

Nothing happens over night and sweeping changes to better our rapidly declining QOL will be hard fought.

What myself and these learned fellows are suggesting is merely a first step. But, if we can't try to make this step...then we may as well resign ourselves to being non-professional labor.

I like this analogy. The eye doctor who practices LASIK surgery is no less of a professional since he gave up his PRK scalpel for a computer controlled laser. He may charge less per patient now, but the technology has enabled him to serve more patients. His QOL did not decline. He is still thought of as a professional.

Why the heck do pilots get pushed around because our industry makes a technological advance that makes the job easier? The job is not less risky, just try to get life insurance. It only got a tad bit easier (until you forget to push a button) in much the same way as LASIK made eye surgery easier.

As ATP pilots, we are no less professional and no less skilled in our trade than the doctor is in his trade.

It's thru limited training opportunities, high academic requirements, and long school times follow by years of apprenticeship...the medical world has managed to limit supply.

That is what we do not do in aviation.

 

[fastbird]

Great idea REZ...here's the copy I emailed....just cut, paste and customize it for you.

Remember to put your snail mail address to ensure you get a reply.

FB

****


Dear Senator _________; (or Honorable Mr. Xxx for a Representative)

In this era of working harder for less, we need a political ally to help us in the airline industry. For 20 years now, pilot training academies and colleges have produced thousands of low time pilots seeking the dream of an aviation career. Normally, these new pilots spent considerable time as flight instructors or other entry level pilot positions before earning a position in the cockpits of our regional carriers. All during this time, these same flight training programs have proported a coming pilot shortage that has never materialized.

New students come into aviation with the hope and expectation of attaining the ultimate job of flying for a major airline like United, American, Delta or UPS. For others of us, we enjoy life at the regional level and want to keep piloting at our level a true professional occupation.

Our industry needs help. Regional airlines are exploiting graduates of these so called regional airline training academies and hiring brand new pilots with very little experience for poverty level wages. This practice is bringing down the experience level of the only growing segment of the American air transportation industry. Some commuter airlines are hiring new pilots with only 500 hours total flight experience. This lack of experience will harm public safety.

One way we can foster a positive change for safety in commuter airline is to standardize the minimum professional pilot requirements. This is very similar to the "One Level of Safety" in commuter airline maintenance several years ago. I'm asking you to sponsor a measure (or Notice of Proposed Rule Making) to bring FAA Part 121 requirements in line with FAA Part 135 IFR minimum requirements.

This simple act will help increase the level of safety in our industry. To be hired and fly in poor weather under Instrument Flight Rules (IFR), a Part 135 IFR pilot must have 1200 flight hours. When compared to the 500 hour pilots some regional airlines are hiring, this additional 700 hours is a huge amount of experience. That experience must be brought to the cockpit by future airline pilots. It is not experience they should be learning "on the job."

Please, lead an effort to standardize the industry. I know it won't be popular with regional airline owners and CEO's. But, the safety of the American public should be paramount to desires of the CEO's.

Thank your for considering this measure.

Sincerely,

Joe Pilot, Captain, XXX Airlines
3121 W. Taxiway Drive
Airpark, AV 13254
(600) 600-0600

 

[CoATP]

Nice job

 

[fastbird]

Now, if everyone will send a copy to their Senators and Representatives. We'll have a start.