Stopping the slide

[PCL_128]

So, whats the purpose? Revenue generator? Are all airlines with ALPA representation Agency Shops? and if not why? Who determines what airlines will be Agency Shops?

The purpose is simple: non-members shouldn't be able to get away with not paying dues when they directly benefit from the contract that ALPA negotiates and maintains. Agency Shop forces non-members to contribute to the cause that they benefit from.

No, not all ALPA carriers are agency shop. FedEx is a good example of an ALPA carrier that is not agency shop. Pinnacle wasn't either at first. Each MEC determines how they are going to set things up. Agency Shop is written in our current CBA in Section 29. Take a look.

 

[Tank Commander]

We didn't have unions in the military. That was called mutiny and they either shoot you or throw you under a prison some where. I think unions are great! We need one. But last time I looked everyone on the negotiation committee for our airline is a pilot at our airline. So in fact we negotiated our own contract. With I'm sure the watchful eye and legal reps. from ALPA all one or two of them that were assigned. All the money? it just doesn't add up. Hell they didn't even give us a Christmas party last year!

 

[PCL_128]

We didn't have unions in the military. That was call mutiny and they either shoot you or throw you under a prison some where.

Newsflash: you're not in the military anymore. Time to stop thinking like a grunt and start thinking like an Air Line Pilot that deserves respect and fair compensation for the position he holds.

I think unions are great! We need one. But last time I looked everyone on the negotiation committee for our airline is a pilot at our airline. So in fact we negotiated our own contract. With I'm sure the watchful eye and legal reps. from ALPA all one or two of them that were assigned. All the money? it just doesn't add up. Hell they didn't even give us a Christmas party last year!

I can assure you that it "all adds up." We receive far more money and services from ALPA than we pay in. Refer to Adrian's Climb and Maintain article from last year for more info about that. Our return on investment from ALPA is superb.

We don't just have "one or two" lawyers at our disposal as you think. We have a single Lawyer/Contract Administrator that deals with our day-to-day affairs, but a virtual army of lawyers is available when the need arises. Not to mention the aeromedical services, safety work, representation on CapHill, etc...

 

[Tank Commander]

[Newsflash: you're not in the military anymore.

No $hit a$$, cause if we were, you definitely would not be in the shape that you are in!
I'm glad to see you found an organization to belong to. It's important for one to feel part of something. I just wish you would have started with the boy scouts.

 

[Tank Commander]

PCL 128,
You did answer a lot of question for me tonight and I do appreciate it.
Good night bud, see you in DTW

 

[T-REX]

Newsflash!! Regionals suck as for paying a fair wage. Any dreams of this being a short-term job on your way to the majors has long past. Christ, I made twice your 1st yr FO pay flying seafood let alone 50+ people.

You've got to stand for something
or you'll fall for anything.

-Aaron Tippin

 

[Tank Commander]

t-rex,
Thanks for the info. now, on your way........

 

[T-REX]

Well do something about it rear admiral.

 

[Tank Commander]

rear admiral

I think thats navy, did a lot but not that.

 

[Lear70]

Newsflash: you're not in the military anymore. Time to stop thinking like a grunt and start thinking like an Air Line Pilot that deserves respect and fair compensation for the position he holds.

Easy killer...

Tank is on board, he's just trying to puzzle this whole thing out, which is ADMIRABLE. Most line pilots have no freakin' clue and couldn't tell you where to get a copy of the ALPA bylaws, much less have studied our contract. At least he's putting forth the effort.

... We receive far more money and services from ALPA than we pay in. Refer to Adrian's Climb and Maintain article from last year for more info about that. Our return on investment from ALPA is superb.

Not exactly. IF you have a problem and IF Legal or Aeromedical have to step in (and decide to do so in a constructive, aggressive way), then you most certainly get more out of your dues than you ever put in.

On the other hand, if you go through the airline life accepting whatever the company gives you without grieving things, get crap contracts handed to you with ALPA National handing the sh*t sandwich saying "Here, you'll like it", and never make it to a major where the REAL money from ALPA is spent, you'll have paid out in dues FAR more than you'll ever get out of it.

I have YET to have ANY of the 23 grievances I've filed at this airline EVER reimburse me a single d*mn penny lost. A large portion of that problem lies in the RLA, but some of it in failure of the CCC to follow-up on grievances or simpy drop them "because we'd spend too much money pursuing your individual grievance" without notifying me and allowing me to continue pursuing them on an individual basis.

There are dozens of horror stories about airline pilots who fly 20 years, keep to themselves, then have a problem, piss off their ALPA rep, and end up on the street after half-assed or ZERO representation by their reps (there's a LOT of lawsuits pending against ALPA for "failure to represent"). No matter what anyone tells you, the quality of representation you get is HIGHLY political, based on your rapport with your MEC. If I ever got into trouble here at PCL I'd hire my own attorney and use ALPA's money until it ran out then continue on my own dime. Almost every pilot who has done that here has gotten 6-digit settlements out of the company and their records cleared; those that relied on ALPA have been 50/50 win/lose.

ALPA isn't the end-all be-all of airline life; it needs a SERIOUS top-down housecleaning and reassessment of their long-term political and strategic goals.

As far as requiring an ATP to fly Part 121 even as an F/O - I've been saying that for years... Now to lobby D.C. I know who my reps are - I used to fly one of them in a Lear some years ago... Would love to see everyone else do the same!

 

[PCL_128]

Rich, that's just ridiculous. As someone that represents pilots in disciplinary hearings, I can tell you for a fact that someone's "rapport" with the MEC has nothing to do with how well I represent them. I will always do my best to represent any pilot that needs the help of the Association, and there isn't an elected or appointed rep in the entire PCL union structure that is any different.

 

[Lear70]

I'm not talking about disciplinary meetings with base managers / chief pilots - I know the majority of reps in the domiciles do their best most of the time, although I've seen some reps do half-assed jobs as well.

I'm mainly talking about termination hearings with arbitrators where our attorney doesn't even bother to show up.

I stick by my statements, as several people from this airline and friends from other airlines have had this problem. It's not a matter of "intent", it's a matter of "aggressive follow through".

An attorney you hire will aggressively go to work for you because his or her livelihood and reputation are at stake. An unpaid union rep will do what is REQUIRED by the bylaws for someone they don't necessarily like or agree with, and no more. The difference is HUGE.

Blind faith in any group is always a bad thing.

 

[fastbird]

Looks like we're all about finding nit-noid problems to bicker about than trying to find UNITY within the loose Association that is our union.

No standard for pilot pay...it's every MEC for itself
No parity amongst the various organizations, APA, ALPA, Teamsters, etc.
Lack of a common goal regarding pilot earnings or QOL

It's no wonder airline management can and does screw us like the crack addict whores we are.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Looks like we're all about finding nit-noid problems to bicker about than trying to find UNITY within the loose Association that is our union.

No standard for pilot pay...it's every MEC for itself
No parity amongst the various organizations, APA, ALPA, Teamsters, etc.
Lack of a common goal regarding pilot earnings or QOL

It's no wonder airline management can and does screw us like the crack addict whores we are.

FB,

Unity? are you kidding? ALPA is a service. The membership motto: What have you done for me lately!

The no standard for pilot pay isn't valid. Becuase when times are good we all love to spring board off the latest and greatest contract. It just backfires when times are bad. If you want stardard pay, then, say the FedEx guys couldn't say to management, you are making record profits, we want a fiar percentage of that. Management will say, nope, you wanted standard pay...you got it...

There is parity amongts the unions through the AFL-CIO. But this is part of your third bullet point.

Look, with only 5% of the membership turning up to LEC meetings and 95% of the membership completely ignorant on the history, how the system works, its limitations and what one can reasonalbly expect, ALPA's effectiveness will continue to remain low.

Until pilots take ownership of thier own circumstance instead of blaming others, calling for salary cuts, decertification, a regional union or no union we are going to continue to be useless.

 

[100LL... Again!]

Requiring 1200 TT to be hired as a 121 pilot just like a 135 pilot is lowering the 121 standard in what way? I use this section because all my Part 121 flying has been on an IFR flight plan.

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]FAA FAR 135.243c Operating Requirements[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]Certificate holders may not use a person, nor may any person serve, as pilot in command of an aircraft under IFR unless that person--[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica](1) Holds at least a commercial pilot certificate with appropriate category and class ratings and, if required, an appropriate type rating for that aircraft; and[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica](2) Has had at least 1,200 hours of flight time as a pilot, including 500 hours of cross-country flight time, 100 hours of night flight time, and 75 hours of actual or simulated instrument time at least 50 hours of which were in actual flight; and[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica](3) For an airplane, holds an instrument rating or an airline transport pilot certificate with an airplane category rating; or[/FONT]
(4) For a helicopter, holds a helicopter instrument rating, or an airline transport pilot certificate with a category and class rating for that aircraft, not limited to VFR.

So what you are proposing is to take a 135 PIC requirement and turn it into a 121 SIC requirement. I would hope you are not suggesting making 135 mins standard for both FOs and CAs at 121 carriers.

Consider the follwing two arguments being made to a lawmaker who knows very little about flying:

Argument A:

Mr. Senator, we need to require all airline pilots to hold an Airline Transport Pilot certificate, to enhance safety in the system.

Argument B:

Mr. Senator, we need to implement an arbitrarily chosen minimum-hour requirement for airline first officers.

In my opinion, argument A would be a much easier one to sell. There's an airline pilot "license" (yeah, I know, certificate). Let's just require that for all airline pilots.

It might be hard to argue that a 135 PIC requirement is somehow translatable to a 121 SIC requirement. Go with the "icensing" issue.

Besides, it would force PFT from GIA to go out and actually gain some real experience for they deem themselves fit to fly for an airline.

In actuality, if a lot of those 'streamers got a real 135 job flying real northern wx, they would all end up "Hey dude-ing" themselves right into the dirt.

Probably better that they get babysat for a couple thousand hours on second thought.