Stopping the slide

[Lear70]

The only way to control wages is if we are all on the same page.Make sure all the airlines have the same costs for pilots.How thats done,well who knows but it must be done or the wip saw will continue.A national contract is my anwser but others may have a better idea.

That idea has been floated before, too.

Certainly ALPA could control such a thing, since they have to sign off on ANY T.A. before it can be implemented. All they would have to do would be to set "minimum pilot wages" and not allow anything LESS to be signed. Period.

That being said, the "all they would have to do" part is a LOT. You have to take into account some airlines simply can't AFFORD the pilot pay that, say, FedEx can. As a matter of fact, NO ONE can except for FedEx and UPS...

Seriously though, I don't believe that setting THE EXACT wage every airline must pay, for instance, a 737 driver would work - too much other contract dynamics. But I CERTAINLY DO agree in a "Minimum" wage for each aircraft implemented by ALPA National.

Unfortunately, I believe I'm in the minority when it comes to people who actually GET INVOLVED in ALPA's system within their airline.

 

[fastbird]

Nothing happens over night and sweeping changes to better our rapidly declining QOL will be hard fought.

What myself and these learned fellows are suggesting is merely a first step. But, if we can't try to make this step...then we may as well resign ourselves to being non-professional labor.

I like this analogy. The eye doctor who practices LASIK surgery is no less of a professional since he gave up his PRK scalpel for a computer controlled laser. He may charge less per patient now, but the technology has enabled him to serve more patients. His QOL did not decline. He is still thought of as a professional.

Why the heck do pilots get pushed around because our industry makes a technological advance that makes the job easier? The job is not less risky, just try to get life insurance. It only got a tad bit easier (until you forget to push a button) in much the same way as LASIK made eye surgery easier.

As ATP pilots, we are no less professional and no less skilled in our trade than the doctor is in his trade.

It's thru limited training opportunities, high academic requirements, and long school times follow by years of apprenticeship...the medical world has managed to limit supply.

That is what we do not do in aviation.

 

[fastbird]

Great idea REZ...here's the copy I emailed....just cut, paste and customize it for you.

Remember to put your snail mail address to ensure you get a reply.

FB

****


Dear Senator _________; (or Honorable Mr. Xxx for a Representative)

In this era of working harder for less, we need a political ally to help us in the airline industry. For 20 years now, pilot training academies and colleges have produced thousands of low time pilots seeking the dream of an aviation career. Normally, these new pilots spent considerable time as flight instructors or other entry level pilot positions before earning a position in the cockpits of our regional carriers. All during this time, these same flight training programs have proported a coming pilot shortage that has never materialized.

New students come into aviation with the hope and expectation of attaining the ultimate job of flying for a major airline like United, American, Delta or UPS. For others of us, we enjoy life at the regional level and want to keep piloting at our level a true professional occupation.

Our industry needs help. Regional airlines are exploiting graduates of these so called regional airline training academies and hiring brand new pilots with very little experience for poverty level wages. This practice is bringing down the experience level of the only growing segment of the American air transportation industry. Some commuter airlines are hiring new pilots with only 500 hours total flight experience. This lack of experience will harm public safety.

One way we can foster a positive change for safety in commuter airline is to standardize the minimum professional pilot requirements. This is very similar to the "One Level of Safety" in commuter airline maintenance several years ago. I'm asking you to sponsor a measure (or Notice of Proposed Rule Making) to bring FAA Part 121 requirements in line with FAA Part 135 IFR minimum requirements.

This simple act will help increase the level of safety in our industry. To be hired and fly in poor weather under Instrument Flight Rules (IFR), a Part 135 IFR pilot must have 1200 flight hours. When compared to the 500 hour pilots some regional airlines are hiring, this additional 700 hours is a huge amount of experience. That experience must be brought to the cockpit by future airline pilots. It is not experience they should be learning "on the job."

Please, lead an effort to standardize the industry. I know it won't be popular with regional airline owners and CEO's. But, the safety of the American public should be paramount to desires of the CEO's.

Thank your for considering this measure.

Sincerely,

Joe Pilot, Captain, XXX Airlines
3121 W. Taxiway Drive
Airpark, AV 13254
(600) 600-0600

 

[CoATP]

Nice job

 

[fastbird]

Now, if everyone will send a copy to their Senators and Representatives. We'll have a start.

 

[fastbird]

This thread sure has died off. It must not be a very important topic to most folks who read this board.

Which is an indicator of the general apathy in this country towards the political process and why ALPA, APA, et al. don't have the clout they need to be more effective.

 

[fastbird]

Got the first reply from my Senator via snail mail today. It says all the cursory BS about how great it is to hear from the folks back home.

But, he also mentioned he got another similar letter and wants more info. Sounds like he's at least going to give me some lip service before circular filing the whole idea.

To those who took the time to exercise their rights as citizens, it's a start.

 

[aviator1978]

I agree that starting wages are too little for regional carriers. But will raising the minimum number of hours change that....probably not. It's just a temporary (if even that) solution. I think alot of folks are forgetting the past few years. Here's a case in point:

My first instructor got an interview at XJT in Aug. 2001. He was to report to training in late September. At the time he had roughly 800 hours. I believe the starting pay was a little closer to the 25,000 - 30,000 range. After 9/11, he was told not to show up.

And so, for the next 2+ years he kept slugging it out in the CFI ranks. In Nov. 2003, he was finally hired another carrier when he had 2000 hours and an ATP. Starting pay: $18,000. It was as if he was in heaven.

I remember asking him about the pay, and his response was, "well, it beats flight instruction, and I'm finally getting valuable time."

I'm sure he isn't the only CFI of that period who went that route.

And so, your proposal will not work. If Congress did say, "The airlines shall hire no one with less that 1500 hours and an ATP", the results would be that in a year or two, we'd be back in the same shape. We would then have a larger pool of more experienced pilots, even more hungry to move on for crappy pay.

The only way to stop this is to have unity in the ranks. We need to go to the airline interview, and negotiate our pay. If some airline offers $18,000, simply say, "No thanks". If the guy next to you accepts that, remember him or her, and make sure their name gets out. They are whoring the industry.

Speaking of 135/91 contract pilots, many around my local area adhear to a unspoken code of minimum pay. If a pilot starts undercutting the market, his name gets out and soon he finds he's getting NO contacts and NO work. Much the same needs to happen in the airlines.

 

[fastbird]

Aviator1978...grasshopper...you are wise far beyond your hours of experience. What you speak of is exactly the proplem facing out industry, too many people willing to work for nothing just to build "valuable time" for the next appliction. These whores are driving us all to the poor house.

By selling out every other hard working pilot when they take that standard lowering job, these folks are showing to management that we are the addicted crack whores they think we are.

This little exercise might be that stop gap measure until we can indoctrinate up and coming CFI's and military pilots to the stark reality...a pilot is just a blue colar...heavy equipment operator...nothing more.

The only professionalism in this career field is what we bring to it. If we talk about this being a professional career, then why can't we foster unity within the ranks?

 

[aviator1978]

thanks fastbird,

I've been saying the same thing for a while now. Basically, we need to stand up and be able to say, "NO". It's real easy. So many guys go into interviews and never ask about the pay. I've never had a job where at the interview I didn't bring it up.

You older guys can be helping the situation as well. From what I hear, there's usually a senior captain sitting across an interview table. Why doesn't he or she say, "Sorry Bob (mgt), but I won't fly with this 20 year old 500 hr., kid who's paying for the job. I think we should hire XXXX, who has 2000 hrs and pay him 28,000 so that he will stay with the company."

It sounds hard and scary if your the only one. But if two people say it.......

And if THREE people say it, can you imagine, THREE senior captains........well, they'd call it a movement

sounds like Alice's Restaurant

Does there really NEED to be a Union to accomplish this?

 

[100LL... Again!]

I still think you are totally mis-wording the letter.

You state that you want to bring 121 in line with 135.

That is not what you are really proposing.

135 SIC mins: Comm/Inst (for an IFR job)

121 SIC mins: Comm/Inst

Where is the difference?

What you are proposing is that 121 SICs meet 135 PIC requirements.

How is that "bringing 121 in line" with 135? You are talking two very differnt entry-level positions. One is ultimately responsible for an airplane, one is not.

Again, I think that the easier argument is this one:

Mr. Senator, we need to have one level of safety. All pilots flying for airlines need to have an AIRLINE TRANSPORT PILOT certificate.

Airline captains need an airline license to fly an airliner. We want airline copilots to have this license also (YES, I know it is a certificate, but you know what I mean).

Requiring a license or certificate to do something is a lot easier argument to make than insisting on an arbitrary number of hours.

Note the subtley:

The law does not require airline captains to have 1500 hours. The law requires them to hold an ATP. If the FAA changed the ATP minimums to 900 hours, then you could have 900 hour airline captains. If they changed it to 2000 hours, well, you get the idea.

It makes sense to require the higher level of airmanship that an ATP (theoretically) requires. A higher hour minimum implies no greater testing requirement.

If you are absolutely married to the 1200 hour thing, then you should propose some sort of FO certificate that requires 1200 hours.

BOTTOM LINE: The uneducated public - who you are going to have to deal with to get this thing passed - understands licenses much more than they understand experience requirements.


ADDITIONAL ADVANTAGE:

By requiring 1500 to work in an airline, you practically ensure that lots more people have to fly 135, at least for a little while. That will make for better pilots all the way around.

 

[CoolSidePillow]

the art of war? what the hell is that? art is creation of nothing from something. 20 years of study war. I can sum it up in one sentence. Very rich people told not so rich not so smart people to go kill and be killed and they obeyed. took me about 20 seconds to write that. I rule.

 

[100LL... Again!]

Fastbird - I am behind you 100% - I just think that the ATP will be an easier sell, with the added advantage that it puts a 121 job another 300 hours out of reach of all but the wealthiest PFT whores.

How many people can PFT their way to 1500 hours? Not nearly as many as can PFT to 500.

Gulfstream will be history!!!

Too bad we can't retroactively boot out the 500 hour wonders.

 

[Tank Commander]

Gulfstream will be history!!!

Won't happen. Riddle has a program for $80,000 that will take you from 0-1500 hrs. ATP and type MD-80.. Wonder Captain's. It's not going to go way.
And stop calling me a whore, B-E-I-O-C-H!

 

[Lear70]

Won't happen. Riddle has a program for $80,000 that will take you from 0-1500 hrs. ATP and type MD-80.. Wonder Captain's. It's not going to go way.
And stop calling me a whore, B-E-I-O-C-H!

The ERAU CAPT program does NOT take their students to 1,500 hours; it takes them through Commercial Multiengine Instrument and however many hours in the sim it takes them to get the type rating.

The girl from the ERAU CAPT program I was talking with in MEM Ops last Thursday had 280 hours when she got hired here last summer.

the art of war? what the hell is that? art is creation of nothing from something. 20 years of study war. I can sum it up in one sentence. Very rich people told not so rich not so smart people to go kill and be killed and they obeyed. took me about 20 seconds to write that. I rule.

20 whole seconds, huh? Another "short bus" collegiate addition to society... *sigh*

20 year of "study war"...? What the hell does that mean? Speak English lately?

Tsun Tsu is a good read; I highly suggest it... IF your comprehensional abilities are up to the task.