Spirit TA

[redflyer65]

Lear is correct. I would vote NO as well, but its the call of the Spirit guys. The scope clause is the first place to start, not good. The courts have no say it how this goes down. Vote it in and live with it, or vote it down and go back on strike. PEB won't make any moves if they haven't already.

 

[Beetle007]

Not to mention, United is operating under a bankruptcy-imposed 1113(c) contract and pay rates.

Wrong. United never had a contract imposed upon them. In fact, No pilot group had a contract imposed upon them after 9-11. That is a common myth.

United negotiated a contract during bankruptcy because they feared a contract being imposed upon them.

The only union with any balls to allow a contract to be imposed upon them were the NWA flight attendants. After a couple months the NWA flight attendants also came to an agreement with the company and signed a contract.

 

[Beetle007]

The Spirit A319/320 captain pay will top out at $185/hr with great work rules.

The United Boeing 747 captain pay tops out at $190/hr and their A320 captain pay tops out at $137/hr. We have to look at what our competitors are paying regardless of if it was negotiated in bankruptcy. They call it pattern bargaining...we are trying to create a pattern of improving contracts.

I am tired of hearing pilots from other airlines giving us any input. I prefer the Spirit TA almost any other contract in the industry (other than SWA, Alaska, and Hawaiian). In my opinion, those are the only pilot groups that can give me any input because the rest of the airlines have crappy contracts with Pref Bidding, no 4 days off between trips, etc.

 

[C-150ETOPS]

I am tired of hearing pilots from other airlines giving us any input.

Don't know if I'm included in that group, but hopefully your pilot group is better versed in the process of the RLA/PEB's and the Courts. The hysteria and false rumour mill goes stratospheric with what Spirit pilot's are dealing with, accurate info on the process and the TA is something eveybody should know by heart. What you posted earlier was either incomplete or incorrect, and a big problem if you're voting YES based on your posts.

As for the details included in the TA, that's for you guys to decide, not others on a chatboard.

I would suggest that SCOPE needs to looked at very closely. I think every Latin America/Caribbean destination is Open Skies. That means if your SCOPE language has holes, an alter ego Spirit Carrier can fly in and out of FLL all day long with foreign crews totally legal with the USA as long as they don't continue on into the domestic US.

 

[waterski]

The Spirit A319/320 captain pay will top out at $185/hr with great work rules.

The United Boeing 747 captain pay tops out at $190/hr and their A320 captain pay tops out at $137/hr. We have to look at what our competitors are paying regardless of if it was negotiated in bankruptcy. They call it pattern bargaining...we are trying to create a pattern of improving contracts.

I am tired of hearing pilots from other airlines giving us any input. I prefer the Spirit TA almost any other contract in the industry (other than SWA, Alaska, and Hawaiian). In my opinion, those are the only pilot groups that can give me any input because the rest of the airlines have crappy contracts with Pref Bidding, no 4 days off between trips, etc.

Remember top year pay is useless if your airline is not here in 15 years. Examples are Mergers, alliances, bankruptcy. Goodluck to all of you.

 

[Beetle007]

Don't know if I'm included in that group,

I would suggest that SCOPE needs to looked at very closely. I think every Latin America/Caribbean destination is Open Skies. That means if your SCOPE language has holes, an alter ego Spirit Carrier can fly in and out of FLL all day long with foreign crews totally legal with the USA as long as they don't continue on into the domestic US.

Our scope language prohibits any revenue sharing agreement in excess of 90 days. Even if it is less than 90 days...it can't result in a furlough of Spirit pilots.

Spirit can create a code-share agreement but Spirit can't participate in any revenue sharing if it exceeds 90 days. also, any code-share agreement can't result in a furlough

Our scope is industry leading and our ALPA lawyer doesnt want to touch it.

 

[Beetle007]

Remember top year pay is useless if your airline is not here in 15 years. Examples are Mergers, alliances, bankruptcy. Goodluck to all of you.

in 4 years, 90%+ of our current captains will be at max payscales. Our most junior captain is a 9 year pilot.

If we aren't in business in 4 years, then I don't see much we can change in the contract to improve our careers.

 

[Redhot99]

Our scope language prohibits any revenue sharing agreement in excess of 90 days. Even if it is less than 90 days...it can't result in a furlough of Spirit pilots.

Spirit can create a code-share agreement but Spirit can't participate in any revenue sharing if it exceeds 90 days. also, any code-share agreement can't result in a furlough

Our scope is industry leading and our ALPA lawyer doesnt want to touch it.

That's not correct, they can't assign or contract out flying for more than 90 days but no where in the contract is there a limit to code share. The words revenue sharing are not in there any where. Republic can code share with us from FLL-DEN using any type of airplane they want. Our company can even take our next new A320 and dry lease it to them. I am be wrong but the scope section looks pretty clear that they can code share, pro-rate as much as they want as long as we don't furlough.

 

[Lear70]

Wrong. United never had a contract imposed upon them. In fact, No pilot group had a contract imposed upon them after 9-11. That is a common myth.

United negotiated a contract during bankruptcy because they feared a contract being imposed upon them.

The only union with any balls to allow a contract to be imposed upon them were the NWA flight attendants. After a couple months the NWA flight attendants also came to an agreement with the company and signed a contract.

While you are "technically" correct, many airlines, United included, had 1113(c) filings hanging over their head when they "negotiated" those contracts.

Kind of like negotiating with a gun held to your head. Point being, they are CONCESSIONARY, BANKRUPTCY CONTRACTS. Comparing yours to theirs and saying "Ooohhh, look what we got, it's better than yours." is some seriously flawed logic.

Vote for it if you want. I wouldn't.

 

[bubbers44]

rh99, I asked about scope to one of their reps and they said Spirit could only dry lease for 90 days so that covers them with no furloughs.

 

[C-150ETOPS]

Thanks beetle.

You guys have my admiration for stepping up to the plate for a unified strike. Keep up the good fight, it will never end.

 

[thunderworm]

when do you vote on your TA?

 

[redflyer65]

So they can dry lease a SPIRIT airbus to another company for 90 days?

Wow. That should read NO days.

 

[lostplnetairman]

Shrek left for Yoonited because he lives in the mountains and he always wanted to be a U pilot. He didn't complain about Spirit. He didn't leave because of anything about Spirit.

Sorry, everytime I met him all he did was complain about Spirit. That was my experience.

 

[lostplnetairman]

So they can dry lease a SPIRIT airbus to another company for 90 days?

Wow. That should read NO days.

Post your contact's scope clause and let's compare.

What does the company do if an aircraft is down for major repairs?

 

[bubbers44]

What can you do in 90 days. Scope protection is good. They are having their road show this week so I can't wait to hear what the pilots will complain about. I think it will pass. We will see.

 

[PCL_128]

The ONLY way that's possible inside the confines of the RLA is in an 1113(c) filing in bankruptcy.

Unfortunately, that's not exactly true. There is another way for a company to get the courts involved in the Section 6 process: allegations of bad-faith bargaining. The company can go to federal court and claim that the union is negotiating in bad faith, which is a violation of the RLA. The NMB doesn't rule on those things, the courts do. It's entirely possible that a judge would issue a preliminary injunction barring any self-help until after the case can be heard in court, which could delay another strike for quite some time.

Now, with that said, I don't think that's the main concern. There is a far greater likelihood of a PEB than there is of court action. And although everyone here wants to dismiss it, a PEB is not at all out of the question for Spirit. While it's true that the NMB would not recommend a PEB to the White House for Spirit under normal circumstances, a second strike within a few weeks is not normal circumstances, and I think it's quite possible, maybe even likely, that the President would issue a PEB to at least slow things down for another month. Two strikes at the same airline within weeks is very bad for politics.

 

[boomlrd]

Beetle007 is Bailman on the Spirit webboard, he is also a member of the union, so take waht he says with a very big grain of salt. He is also a Captain, so he will enjoy the contract much more than most FO's.

 

[Mike man]

here is another way for a company to get the courts involved in the Section 6 process: allegations of bad-faith bargaining. The company can go to federal court and claim that the union is negotiating in bad faith, which is a violation of the RLA. The NMB doesn't rule on those things, the courts do. It's entirely possible that a judge would issue a preliminary injunction barring any self-help until after the case can be heard in court, which could delay another strike for quite some time.

most unfortunately for the company...the odds are not in their favor in this situation, with miss dealings and such for the last year, it has been the cry babies at Spirit who have been bargaining in bad faith not the pilots.

And if Art Lubby is not smart enough to add a "if the TA fails clause in his return to work agreement" f-em and let him deal with the ramifications.

 

[lostplnetairman]

Beetle007 is Bailman on the Spirit webboard, he is also a member of the union, so take waht he says with a very big grain of salt. He is also a Captain, so he will enjoy the contract much more than most FO's.

Aren't we all members of the Union? That's why we agreed to strike. And some FO's get preferential treatment? I love the logic! LOL! Go to a road show!